Oh MY Hydrogen from Ethanol get ready corn farmers

[jponder]

check this out

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/02/13/hydrogen.reactors.ap/index.html



Cant wait till the day we can cut opec off, This is another step in the right direction

 

[NETim]

I think this is great. But I'd still like to see the numbers. How many gallons of diesel per bushel of corn to produce it and how many BTU's needed to distill the alcohol?



I'm glad it provides a market but still skeptical that there really is a net energy gain in the process.



Tim

 

[jponder]

well I'm sure you would want to use the alcohol to make more alcohol and hydrogen. If you used diesel in the production of the corn it wouldnt be as cool as if you used the alcohol from corn to run tractors to make more corn and use the alcohol itself as the heat source to distill the alcohol.



The problem would be... ... . What if the Farmer was having a Bad day and Drank all his fuel.

 

[NETim]

I still question if there is a net gain of energy in the process. Energy is consumed to produce fertilizer, seed corn, farm implements and shipping for all of the above. Then energy is consumed in the use and application of the above items.



Then energy is required to distill the alcohol and ship it. And I'm sure that some energy is consumed when the ethanol is converted into hydrogen.



I am not against the use of ethanol or bio diesel. It's just that I am skeptical that there is actually a net gain of energy when it's all said and done.



I would like to see the numbers.



Tim

 

[QRTRHRS]

Originally posted by jponder

The problem would be... ... . What if the Farmer was having a Bad day and Drank all his fuel.

The next day would probably be a lot worse

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

Our local ethanol plant has to mix 5% gasoline by volume with the alcohol. It is regulated by the ATFB. That would probably stop most farmers from wanting to drink it. lol



Dan

 

[jponder]

Originally posted by NETim

I still question if there is a net gain of energy in the process. Energy is consumed to produce fertilizer, seed corn, farm implements and shipping for all of the above. Then energy is consumed in the use and application of the above items.



Then energy is required to distill the alcohol and ship it. And I'm sure that some energy is consumed when the ethanol is converted into hydrogen.



I am not against the use of ethanol or bio diesel. It's just that I am skeptical that there is actually a net gain of energy when it's all said and done.



I would like to see the numbers.



Tim

Well I dont beleive it would be a lose. You shouldnt really look at it that way its more complicated than that. You have alot of fixed cost in growing corn like you said the implements and tractors. If a Farmer only grew 100 acres of his 200 acre farm to feed his cows and left the other 100 doing nothing then what would the real cost of adding that 100 in. Farmers could ramp up production and now have a place for excess.

Producing hydrogen from ethanol will probably never compete with doing it from eletrolysis of water via solar or nuclear power but it is kinda cool to look at a ear of corn and envisioning it being shoved up Opec's A$$

Plus if you distilled the alcohol yourself... ... YOU COULD DRINK IT!

 

[NETim]

Believe me, being from a rural state like Nebraska, I'd love to see anything that would strengthen the farmer, particularly the family farmer. Anything to increase demand for corn, soybeans, wheat, you name it, would be a GOOD think IMHO.



Farmers only get about a nickel from the sale of a loaf of bread and not much more from a box of cereal.



However, if we burn 10 gallons of diesel to produce say 6 gallons of ethanol, have we really gained anything?



Low grades of corn go into the production of ethanol for the most part which is obviously good because it is not going to waste and will produce some kind of income. But around here, it seems that ethanol plants don't get off the ground without tax breaks and ethanol blends are not competitive unless subsidies are involved.



It's all too artificial for this ol' farm boy.



Overproduction has long been the problem for American farmers. That's why the CRP program was brought about. The fact that it's good for the land and wildlife is secondary.



Maybe the Aitkens craze will increase the demand for beef and more corn and soybeans will go to feed and boost prices and demand.



I can only hope.



Let's hear it for the American Farmer!! God bless 'em!



Tim

 

[jponder]

Yes you are right, CRP is a powerful program. We signed a CRP on a 43 acre field that was in corn and the Gov pays us 30$/acre and 1/2 cost share to plant it and Pays us to burn in a couple of times. It does seem like a catch 22, govt talks about all these plans and has the DCP program to help farmers but then has CRP. Whip, FPP that is geared to turn our land into Forest Land, of course I am not a farmer so I like Forest land



Its hard on the Farmers unless they were about to retire. 25 years is a long time to wait for a crop of trees.



Maybe Solar is going to be a better way to go. I just like anything that screws opec and I got a little excited about production of H2 from Ethanol

 

[Un-Hemi]

Whatever happened to alcohol-powered fuel cells?

 

[jlasich]

I think it's fantastic. Anything that we can do to help the American farmer is a very good thing. It's amazing how crop prices haven't changed since at least the early '80s and yet production costs have increased dramatically. Things such as ethanol, bio-diesel, or hydrogen created from ethanol provide more avenues for our farmers to sell to. This is the type of research that the government should be funding and I think that in my lifetime, we will be saying "What's OPEC?"

 

[Eric Kahn]

If you want to grow fuel on a farm, start building ponds because you can get close to 1200 gallons an acre of bio-diesel from algae (pond scum) as opposed to about 50 gallons an acre from the best of the oil seeds



ethanol will never make sense unless the gov. continues to subsidize the farmers who are growing for it, it cost more in energy than you get from the ethanol as a fuel

 

[bbovenmyer]

Eric, would you mind sharing where you got your figures for the ethanol conversion of corn versus the bio-diesel conversion of algae?

 

[Eric Kahn]

the link below is for a TDIclub forum where I got the info, the 50 per acre was for bio-diesel, not ethanol



the thing I said about ethanol costing more in energy to produce than you get from it was something I read years ago



I am not one of the Bio-diesel fanatics, I use the cheapest fuel in my TDI vw, current real cost of bio-diesel is still slightly higher than petroleum diesel and there is no one locally to me that sells bio-diesel



http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat....&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1&vc=1