OIL Additive Importance

[RBellah]

I read an article about the aftermarket camshaft companys having pre-mature failure because of the Newer OILS not having the additives they once had. Article stated since the EPA got strick on them using Zinc that they have removed it and that has caused some problems. One of the reasons given for removing Zinc was, it was hard on Catyltic Converters. Also, The article said that one of the oils being Shell Rotella that once had Zinc is now with NO Zinc additive in their oil. My question is if you are using Shell Rotella what additives would you use and how much? :confused

 

[CKelley1]

it is the dpf filter not the catylic converter. once the dpf can not regen any longer you have to replace it. the dello 400 has in my opinion a better replacement package than rotella, a quart of oil is only about 60% oil and 40% package dello chose to use more molly than rotella did in the overall scheme of things i think either will take you to 1,000,000 miles. there are two companys that i am aware of that have a product to replace the lost zink and calcium compounds do a search on torco superior lubes the other is somthing like zddp but it only replaces the zink compounds. only the 6. 7 has the dpf any one with the 6. 7 needs to remove the egr, dpf and cat any way it will give 20% increase in mpg instanlly and you can use ci4 oil the industrial equipment does not require dpf and oils like john deer are still ci4

 

[mtnram]

A while back I did some research due to my concern about zinc removal, especially it's effect on cam and lifter wear.

I found This Additive may help.

I did not try it yet, although the logic is appropriate. The zinc being a softer metal provides the friction buffering contacting parts require.

Maybe it's time to consider such a product?

 

[bheiting]

From what I understand you need to be careful that you don't upset the additive
balance when adding your own additives. I'd just get a good oil to start with. Refer to
John Martins articles in TDR issues 56-58. If you have a 2007 or earlier Cummins,
use a CI-4+ oil that has more zinc than the newer CJ-4 oils. Last time I checked my
local Cummins distributor had Valvoline Premium Blue Classic (CI-4+) in stock. Some
of the Valvoline oils are now on sale at Cummins.

 

[mtnram]

I did some browsing and found this on Delo 400 le and this on Rotella and this on Valvoline.

Doing the math on Rotella (1210/1,000,000) = . 121% zinc and Chevrons . 13 (rounded in favor?) would suggest the zinc composition in these two oils is equal. Unfortunately Valvoline does not list zinc for some reason.

Too bad there is not a mandatory spec sheet for oil manufacturers.

 

[CKelley1]

they could not take all of the zink compounds out and the three additives mentioned are compathable with the delo rotella valvoline oils. one of the zink compounds chemically alters the metal to make it harder and slicker. in talking with chevron they had to change the detergent portion of the package also, so for those of us that determine oil drain interval by analysis when they changed from ci4 to cj4 we had to redo the sampling all are coming back shorter drain intervals and a lot of ours are ten plus gallons of oil. tarco claims to also replace the other compounds besides the zink this would take the cj4 oil back to ci4 and with the extra molly, boron and other compounds they had to exchange or increase when they lowered the zink and compounds would make this the best oil. the more i think about it i am going to try it on one of my pickups and see what it does. the soot loading on my 06 may stop me from gaining the benefit that you would see in pre 04. 5's. i remember some time in the 1970's ford shipped gas pickups out that the camshaft were not properly hardened ford's solution was to have you use a oil that had high zink oileates in it to harden the cam after about 30,000 miles you could swap back to your regular oil. not to get off the subject but remember when ford decided to lighten the trucks and cut holes in the frames you would be driving down the road and the truck would break in half between the bed and cab, still have some pix of a few of them. fords solution was they notified the owners not to haul any thing in there trucks

 

[amsoilman]

The limits set by the API for the newer CJ-4 Diesel oils require that the oil have no more than 1. 0 percent ASH. The DPF is primarily the reason for this requirement. The CI-4+ oils could hvae up to 1. 5 percent ASH.



Some of the other CJ-4 Limits are:



Sulfur . 4 percent

Phosphorous . 12 percent

volatility 13 percent



Compare that to the CI-4+ oils:



ASh 1. 2---1. 5 percent

Sulfur NO LIMIT

Phosphorous . 14 percent

Volatility 15 percent



These differences may not seem much, but they are very significant differences.

 

[MA2LA]

the lower zinc content mainly affects the breakin of the camshafts. once they are broken in its no where near as big a problem. We have had some issuse when building jeep 4. 7 strokers. There are a few companys making breakin oils to prevent damage.

 

[AABEN]

I have a oil report from BLACKSTONE LABORATORIES that says the zinc in the classic oil is 1668 after 4. 653 miles my oil still had 1273 left in the oil the viscosity 100*c was 13. 57 new my check at 13. 03 They told to run it to 6000 and check it. Will let you'll know when i get time to change it over 7000 miles this time out.

 

[Heavyweight]

snake oil.



Go to bob is the oil guy website and take a look at posted oil analysis of CJ oils. NO WAY are they failing on lubrication. Some of the analysis look great.



Matter of fact, Delvac, and Rotella are doing as well as any oil in the 15-40 grade.



Furthermore, it also shows that synthetics dont out perform the above!



The only thing you can really do, is shorten drain intervals if you are worried about it.



Go give bob is the oil guy a read. Oo.

 

[CKelley1]

heavyweight i did not mean to imply that the new oils are bad, with millions of dollars in my equipment i do not want to take any chances, that is why i spent the time with the engineers most of my research is on delo400 because that is available through my distributer. the test's have proven that the cj4 oils lube as good as the ci4 oils do and i am using cj4 oils in all 138 diesel engines and the 27 gas engines we have. a quart of oil is about 60% base stock and 40% additives it does not make any difference if the stock is paraffin or synthetic it is the 40% that determines the life of the oil and there is no difference in the two. it is not cost effective to add any thing to a cj4 oil. there is about three compounds they had to substitute for the cj4 oil that requires the drain interval to be shortened. but putting things back in perspective it will not affect any user on this site, most of our trucks hold 44 quarts of oil and i have a loader that holds 76 quarts i will take a pix of it and post on this site for grins and giggles it has a twin turbo cummins engine only thing the turbo's are in parallel not series and it is 1710 cu in v12 with this quantity of oil we stretch our drain interval out . each piece of equipment will have to be retested to see where the new interval is with the cj4. i am only going to play with the 06 and additive to see what it does after the test i will go back to the oil only. on my 09 tdi it called for a 5w30 that met some bs standard of theirs. the only 5w-40 oil that my distributor carries is rotella synthetic. at a capacity of about one gallon i can live with that. getting the egr dpf and cat off will extend life way more than any change in anything you could do with oil.

 

[amsoilman]

Its interesting what some folks think when it comes to API CJ-4 engine oils, and what their perspective is regarding the lubricating and performance qualities of the these oils.



One must look at other factors, rather than look only at the fact of the CJ-4 specification.



Amsoil Inc. just came out with a Premium API CJ-4 100 percent Synthetic 15W-40 Diesel Oil (DME) , which offers Superior Shear Stability and Extended Drain Intervals in Ultra-Low Emission Diesel Engines.



After extensive tesing, both in the field as well as the labs, they are recommending 3 times the OEM drain intervals, not to exceed 50,000 miles/one year. they are also saying if oil analysis is used, drain intervals can be extended even further.



If you go to their web site, you can look at the specs. for this new oil.



wayne

 

[CKelley1]

wayne going back to what i said it is the 40% part that makes the difference not the base. amsoil, chevron, shell, nor any other labeled oil makes there own package all including amsoil buy there additive packages from about three sources, if you take the package that amsoil bought for there blend and used it in a dino base it would give the same drain results. the packet delo-400 bought has more molly in it than some other packets but a lot of the other oils also use the same or slightly different mix i remember conico had the exact same packet, there were more but none of them were handled by my distributer. i have been with delo for 43 years now and it is easy for me to get. in the 04. 5 up 5. 9's used a in cylinder egr to help meet the epa levels the third injection pulse caused massive amounts of carbon to enter the oil, you know this. with your oil or any one else's oil the soot loading of the oil on these are going to be the determining factor of drain interval and that is going to be the same for your oil or rotella or delo. things you can do to prolong drain interval on this model of 5. 9's is to reduce the effect of the third pulse. smarty moves the pulse back toward tdc quiet a ways a cam change opens the exhaust valve sooner and 50 hp injector's get more fuel near tdc and shortens the duration of the third pulse for a given power setting effectively moving the third pulse closer to tdc. besides cutting the soot loading in half this also giver a 4. 5 mpg increase. i like amsoil and while i am playing around with the 06 and will compare the drain interval of the new amsoil to the delo+conversion to ci4 packet but i bet they both load up with soot at the same time and long before the pack is depleted. the 06 has a very good bypass filter on it that should help tremendously i will start at 10,000 miles and test every 3,000 until the lab says it is time to change it would be more useful if i was to include a stock delo oil to compare the three but i only drive the 06 1,000 miles a week and by that time it will be two years and no one will remember

 

[Heavyweight]

ckelly, I did not see that you have 130 plus trucks. If you want to run the best totally understood. I would stick with CI-4 if you can. I am talking about the avg Joe daily driver. I see your concearns and please keep us posted on maintenance of all them engines.

 

[amsoilman]

wayne going back to what i said it is the 40% part that makes the difference not the base. amsoil, chevron, shell, nor any other labeled oil makes there own package all including amsoil buy there additive packages from about three sources, if you take the package that amsoil bought for there blend and used it in a dino base it would give the same drain results. the packet delo-400 bought has more molly in it than some other packets but a lot of the other oils also use the same or slightly different mix i remember conico had the exact same packet, there were more but none of them were handled by my distributer. i have been with delo for 43 years now and it is easy for me to get. in the 04. 5 up 5. 9's used a in cylinder egr to help meet the epa levels the third injection pulse caused massive amounts of carbon to enter the oil, you know this. with your oil or any one else's oil the soot loading of the oil on these are going to be the determining factor of drain interval and that is going to be the same for your oil or rotella or delo. things you can do to prolong drain interval on this model of 5. 9's is to reduce the effect of the third pulse. smarty moves the pulse back toward tdc quiet a ways a cam change opens the exhaust valve sooner and 50 hp injector's get more fuel near tdc and shortens the duration of the third pulse for a given power setting effectively moving the third pulse closer to tdc. besides cutting the soot loading in half this also giver a 4. 5 mpg increase. i like amsoil and while i am playing around with the 06 and will compare the drain interval of the new amsoil to the delo+conversion to ci4 packet but i bet they both load up with soot at the same time and long before the pack is depleted. the 06 has a very good bypass filter on it that should help tremendously i will start at 10,000 miles and test every 3,000 until the lab says it is time to change it would be more useful if i was to include a stock delo oil to compare the three but i only drive the 06 1,000 miles a week and by that time it will be two years and no one will remember

CKelley,

I think you may be missinformed about basestockes, as the basestock is the deciding factor for the type and kinds of additive packages go in to the finished product.

Yes, nearly all of the oil Companies buy their additive packages from an additive suplier, such as "Lubrizol", but you also must realize there are about five different levels of Quality packages that can be purchased, which all levels will meet the specs of the API, SAE, and many of the other engine manufactures. Some Oil Companies formulate their oils so they will meet the specs. using the least expencive (low Qualiy) additive package. Amsoil is not one of those that do that. As a matter of fact, they do just the opposite. This is why they can addvertise 25,000 miles/one year drain intervals on many of their oils, and have done so for the past 35 plus years. No other oil Company I know of is doing that!



They formulate to be above and beyond the specs. for the application they are trying to achieve, and in some cases, they will use a (PAO) Polyalphaolifin as well as a Dyester Basestock together along with the additive package to attain what they are building the oil to accomplish. In other words they can determine what lubricant characteristics will be best suited to that particular application, and build the oil to do just that.



It is true, the biggest majority of a quart of oil is "BASESTOCK", about 2/3, the rest is the additive package.

You mention Molly in the dello 400 you use. Amsoil does not beleive in putting Molly engine oil, so they do not have Molly in any of their Engine oils.



I have a By-Pass oil system on my truck, and use the Amsoil 15W-40 HDD & Marine oil, and now have over 80,000 miles on it without draining the oil, and the soot level in the oil at my last analysis was 0. 2 Percent, oil viscosity was 14. 6cSt@100C. I have added 4 quarts since installing.



Best regards,



Wayne

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ... ... ... ..... This is why they can addvertise 25,000 miles/one year drain intervals on many of their oils, and have done so for the past 35 plus years. No other oil Company I know of is doing that!
... ... ... ... ... Wayne

I normally stay away from these oil arguments but I can't overlook the comment above.

You say Amsoil advertises 25,000 mile/one year drain intervals ... ... ... but that claim is in clear contravention of the written guidance provided by our Dodge owner's manuals and by guidance issued by Cummins, Inc. , the engine builder.

Dodge/Cummins make their recommendations based on their legal written warranty coverage for 100,000 miles and five years.

When Amsoil contravenes the oil change interval specified by the company who warranties the engine, does Amsoil provide a written guarantee that Amsoil will repair or replace an engine that fails during the warranty period if the owner follows Amsoil's drain interval?

It seems to me it is pretty easy to make such bold claims when another company is responsible if the engine fails while using the non-liable company's products.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Oh no.





Here we go. :{

 

[CKelley1]

wayne i know every thing you just stated and all is accurate and that lubrizoil is the supplier of amsoil and delo and the mix is different for each. the 03 produces about 10% of the amount of soot in the oil as a 04. 5 does. the oil should be changed at about 0. 7% soot loading that comes out to 28,000 miles on your oil with a amsoil by pass filter on a 04. 5 and that is what i was trying to say. the soot loading will decide the interval on a 04. 5 not the package or base. because of the soot in the late 5. 9;s a good bypass like yours is a must i have studied charts of your filter and it is identical to a element in one of mine a luberfiner made by champion. so i think that is who you use . i like this thread , there is good info and every one is helpful and nice we did kinda hi-jack it from rbella, would like to hear back from him to see if he is confused or we answered his question. now back to the filter. wayne your going to have to think on this one a day or two but the dirtier a filter is the better it filters the best thing you could do is not change it until it clogs up go to champions web site and look at the chart your filter will remove more and smaller particles the longer you use it. we are draining your filter and re installing it back on at oil and main filter change and yes we are running some of yours and your caps on our home made ones. send me your email address and i will send you some pix of things we are trying on soot. i am retired now and just playing with this for fun and do not intend to do it on the big stuff. if you have a customer you know real well that has a 04. 5 up see if you can talk him into adding a toilet paper filter after the amsoil see how fast it clogs up and see if it can drop the soot loading like i think it will .

 

[amsoilman]

I normally stay away from these oil arguments but I can't overlook the comment above.



You say Amsoil advertises 25,000 mile/one year drain intervals ... ... ... but that claim is in clear contravention of the written guidance provided by our Dodge owner's manuals and by guidance issued by Cummins, Inc. , the engine builder.



Dodge/Cummins make their recommendations based on their legal written warranty coverage for 100,000 miles and five years.



When Amsoil contravenes the oil change interval specified by the company who warranties the engine, does Amsoil provide a written guarantee that Amsoil will repair or replace an engine that fails during the warranty period if the owner follows Amsoil's drain interval?



It seems to me it is pretty easy to make such bold claims when another company is responsible if the engine fails while using the non-liable company's products.

Harvey,

I certainly don't want to have this thread turn in to a BIG Controversy over oil, but I will post something concerning your question.



The following comes directly from Amsoil's web site:

The practice of extending oil drain intervals does not void warranties. Original equipment manufacturers pay or deny warranty claims based on the findings of failure analysis. To affect the vehicle warranty, the lubricant must be directly responsible for the failure. If the oil didn't cause the problem the warranty cannot be voided, regardless of brand or length of time in use.



AMSOIL offers a warranty that covers the cost of repair or replacement of a proven mechanically sound engine damaged as a result of using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil. However, it has never happened. [END QUOTE]



REMEMBER, this is on Amsoil's own web site for anyone in the world to see, including engine manufactures and oil Companies. I think if there was some false advertising here, these Companies would be all over Amsoil Inc.



I have seen other oil Companies brought down by the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau on certain claims, such the latest one I have seen in The April 8, 2009 edition of Lube Report, a weekly email newsletter from Lubes 'N Greases magazine, carries a lead story by editor George Gill titled Truth in Advertising: BP vs. Royal Purple.

As it turns out Royal Purple was taken to task by The National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus. The NAD recommended that Royal Purple discontinue making many of their performance claims due to faulty documentation and anecdotal evidence.



To read this story in its entirety visit LUBE REPORT



Wayne

 

[amsoilman]

CKELLY1,

Lubrizol, is only one of three different Additive Companies that Amsoil Inc. uses for making their oils.

The Oil By-pass filter I use is an Amsoil EaBP-100, which uses the filtering media that "Donaldson Corp. " makes, and as far as I know, Amsoil and Donaldson are the only ones that can use this filtering media at this time. You can go to this link to see how this material is made:

http://www.donaldson.com/en/filtermedia/support/datalibrary/052024.pdf



My E-mail address is: -- email address removed --



I would lave to hear from you.



Wayne