OIL Additive Importance

[Grizzly]

Wayne, there is no way on God's green earth that I would let any dirty oil stay in my engine for 25K miles or one year. So why spend the extra cost for Amsoil?

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne, there is no way on God's green earth that I would let any dirty oil stay in my engine for 25K miles or one year. So why spend the extra cost for Amsoil?

So how do you tell if your oil is dirty?

 

[CKelley1]

grizzly, wayne is correct. the proper way to find your drain oil interval is to test the oil. each series of engines will have different times. the package that we keep talking about has detergents, dispersants ,shear and friction, sulfuric acid neutralizers, polymers to give the multigrade and many other things. a good oil will work the same at 50,000 miles as it does at 100 miles if none of the additives are depleted and the ability of the oil to suspend the stuff ( mainly soot) that the filter can not remove. by choosing the oil and filter you want to use, run the combo 10,000 miles and test and test every 2,000 or 3,000 miles until the additive depletion or soot loading is reached the lab will tell you where this point is at . no further testing is required as long as the oil is not reformulated and no change is made in the filter. most trucking companies if not all use this method on large companies this will save them millions of dollars on oil and filters and you will get several million miles out of a motor before major overhaul and that is on stock dino oil. if you apply this to the dodge and go with a synthetic like amsoil 5w 40 deo or shell 5w40 rotella t and a good main filter a lf16035 and a bypass filter like the amsoil 100, frantz, home made using big rig or equipment by pass filters, gulf coast or others and you will improve your mpg and actually lengthen the life of the motor and a huge savings in cost of filters and oil. as i stated the dirtier a filter gets the better it filters, the problem with the main filter is that if it gets to restrictive it has a spring that lets the oil bypass the filter ie no filter. i am positive the 03 will go 20,000 miles between a lf16035 change i know one hot shot who does and has 800,000 on it the last time i checked on the 04. 5 up i think it might bypass so while you can extend the oil change and run the by pass filter until it clogs up you must change the lf16035 about every 12,000 miles. the reason i keep saying lf16035 it will fit every series and will filter better than any thing we have looked at and will hold more dirt than most. follow the owners manual and you will get about 1,250,000 miles out of the motor before blow by or other problems use this method with synthetic and by pass filter and see 2,000,000+ i just like arguing with wayne. we buy as many 55 gallon drums of oil as you do quarts and is not cost effective for us to go synthetic the exception is my 09vw tdi it must have the synthetic cj4 5w oil, as soon as i can get the egr, cat and pdf off of it i am going to use amsoil deo or rotella t with a zink additive from zddp +. change oil every 10,000 miles and not test the oil

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey,
I certainly don't want to have this thread turn in to a BIG Controversy over oil, but I will post something concerning your question.

The following comes directly from Amsoil's web site:

The practice of extending oil drain intervals does not void warranties. Original equipment manufacturers pay or deny warranty claims based on the findings of failure analysis. To affect the vehicle warranty, the lubricant must be directly responsible for the failure. If the oil didn't cause the problem the warranty cannot be voided, regardless of brand or length of time in use.

AMSOIL offers a warranty that covers the cost of repair or replacement of a proven mechanically sound engine damaged as a result of using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil. However, it has never happened. [END QUOTE]

REMEMBER, this is on Amsoil's own web site for anyone in the world to see, including engine manufactures and oil Companies. I think if there was some false advertising here, these Companies would be all over Amsoil Inc.

I have seen other oil Companies brought down by the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau on certain claims, such the latest one I have seen in The April 8, 2009 edition of Lube Report, a weekly email newsletter from Lubes 'N Greases magazine, carries a lead story by editor George Gill titled Truth in Advertising: BP vs. Royal Purple.
As it turns out Royal Purple was taken to task by The National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus. The NAD recommended that Royal Purple discontinue making many of their performance claims due to faulty documentation and anecdotal evidence.

To read this story in its entirety visit LUBE REPORT

Wayne

Wayne,

I understand that the broad subject of engine oil choice ie conventional vs. synthetic, Cummins factory oil filter vs. aftermarket filtration, prescribed oil change intervals vs. extended, oil sampling, etc. are a religion to many and to argue one position or another would simply be annoying to those who disagree and change no one's opinion. Personally, I don't care what oil or oil change interval others choose.

My interest here is in warranty language.

It is simply a myth that Dodge has to "prove" anything to deny a warranty claim. That is only a theory. If an owner takes a Dodge with a Cummins engine to a dealer and upon disassembly it is determined that the main or rod bearings are worn within the warranty period, the dealer will first look for proof of maintenance, non factory filters and parts, and condition of the oil. They will simply deny the warranty if any of those tests show neglect, non-factory parts, or lack of prescribed maintenance such as extended drain intervals. Period.

The ball will then be in the Dodge owner's court. His first problem would be he would be unable to prove he followed Chrysler/Dodge's prescribed service interval and/or was uning aftermarket parts. End of case. Sure, he can spout what is right and what he is going to do endlessly on the TDR website but to challenge Chrysler Corporation in court and win is a formidable task which the ordinary owner is extremely unlikely to accomplish. Everyone has heard of the Magnusson-Moss warranty act and many can recite the language regarding the need to prove that an aftermarket part caused a failure but talking about it here and proving a claim against a big automaker are entirely different matters.

Even I, with no training in the law whatsoever, can easily see that the Amsoil warranty you cite is loaded with lawyer escape clauses.

"AMSOIL offers a warranty that covers the cost of repair or replacement of a proven mechanically sound engine damaged as a result of using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil. However, it has never happened. "

The first escape clause, "a proven mechanically sound engine" is a challenge. How is an owner going to prove his engine was mechanically sound before he began using Amsoil? The fact it was running doesn't prove anything in a courtroom. He would have had to pay an engineering company to remove and disassemble his engine in laboratory conditions with photographic evidence and microscopic measurements recorded then reassemble the engine, documenting every detail. The process of disassembly then reassembly could then be challenged in court by slick lawyers.

Second, the owner would have to prove that his mechanically sound engine was damaged by Amsoil. Obviously, there is no way to prove that. If his engine is prematurely worn out it would not be because of use of Amsoil but because he extended the drain interval. I have no doubt that Amsoil is good oil and wouldn't directly damage the engine bearings.

Each to his own. Most Cummins engines will probably run two or three hundred thousand miles with no oil or filter change at all.

I just wanted to point out the fallacy of accepting an aftermarket companies claims that an owner can use their products and disregard the engine manufacturer's prescribed maintenance procedures and count on the aftermarket company to make him whole if he experiencs a failure.

IMO it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Good, common sense post Harvey - the old "MAKE" a dealer do most ANYTHING they choose not to, is an exercise in futility, unless the customer has deep pockets and lots of time!



Some here still see the Magnuson/Moss deal as some sort of loaded gun with magic bullets that will instantly cause dealerships to shake with fear and turn into quivering jelly - they will be in for a serious surprise if they ever actually try to put it to use...

 

[Grizzly]

grizzly, wayne is correct. the proper way to find your drain oil interval is to test the oil. each series of engines will have different times.....





You present a good analyses, which I have no doubt as to it's actuary. That's great for large fright line companies who run their trucks millions of miles. However I believe most of us members on TDR, on average, own one Dodge/Cummins truck and tow our 5er, TT or horse trailers an average of 12K miles per year. That's what this forum is about, not about the mega fleet trucking business owner.



I've average 10K miles a year on my 05 Dodge since I purchased it in Nov 04, which means if I should get 1 million miles out of it, the engine would last 100 years. Now why do I want to spend all that money on oil testing and more money for synthetic oil when the standard oil works for me. By having the dealer change my oil every 6 months with Mopar filters I am fully complying with the requirements of my extended warranty. When I run out of my free oil changes under the 7 year agreement with the dealer, I will go back to changing my own oil, like I do my two Toyota cars. When that time comes, in 1. 6 years, I can decide if I want to switch to synthetic oil. I see no good reason to change. I'll change my oil every 6 months or 5K miles, whichever come first.

 

[amsoilman]

grizzly, wayne is correct. the proper way to find your drain oil interval is to test the oil. each series of engines will have different times.....





You present a good analyses, which I have no doubt as to it's actuary. That's great for large fright line companies who run their trucks millions of miles. However I believe most of us members on TDR, on average, own one Dodge/Cummins truck and tow our 5er, TT or horse trailers an average of 12K miles per year. That's what this forum is about, not about the mega fleet trucking business owner.



I've average 10K miles a year on my 05 Dodge since I purchased it in Nov 04, which means if I should get 1 million miles out of it, the engine would last 100 years. Now why do I want to spend all that money on oil testing and more money for synthetic oil when the standard oil works for me. By having the dealer change my oil every 6 months with Mopar filters I am fully complying with the requirements of my extended warranty. When I run out of my free oil changes under the 7 year agreement with the dealer, I will go back to changing my own oil, like I do my two Toyota cars. When that time comes, in 1. 6 years, I can decide if I want to switch to synthetic oil. I see no good reason to change. I'll change my oil every 6 months or 5K miles, whichever come first.

There are certainly more reasons to use a high quality Synthetic, such as Amsoil than just longer drain intervals, but I will not get in to that at this time, as there are many.

As to my cost over the past 6 years/81,000 miles on my truck for the oil and filters, by-pass system PLUS the oil analysis for the 6 years has cost me around $515. 00 according to my records.



No, I am not trying to persaude you into the use of Amsoil or any other product! We all have a choice, and in the end, we go for what we think is the best! My choice and what *I* think is best is what I am doing, and you and others may not agree, and that's OK!



My advice to you or anyone, is to research any and all things you wish to buy, then you will have a better Idea as to what your desires are, and that is what I did some 29 years ago with the Amsoil oils and lubes



Best regards,



Wayne

 

[AH64ID]

Amsoil Inc. just came out with a Premium API CJ-4 100 percent Synthetic 15W-40 Diesel Oil (DME) , which offers Superior Shear Stability and Extended Drain Intervals in Ultra-Low Emission Diesel Engines.



After extensive tesing, both in the field as well as the labs, they are recommending 3 times the OEM drain intervals, not to exceed 50,000 miles/one year. they are also saying if oil analysis is used, drain intervals can be extended even further.



If you go to their web site, you can look at the specs. for this new oil.



wayne

On the website they say 50,000miles/600 hours/1 year. . If you were to get 50000 miles in 600 hours thats an 83. 3mph average. With my speed average, 31. 7, thats 19,020 miles... A HUGE difference. .



On my truck, see sig, I got 19,973 (603 hours) miles from my last oil and the wear metals were starting to get abnormal, and the soot was 3. 0% (but still a 1, which is normal)... Thats with a, HDD, EaO080 and a EaBP-110. . no makeup oil added... So each truck is different. . About 2K of those miles were towing, the rest were rural or hwy, very little "city".

 

[amsoilman]

On the website they say 50,000miles/600 hours/1 year. . If you were to get 50000 miles in 600 hours thats an 83. 3mph average. With my speed average, 31. 7, thats 19,020 miles... A HUGE difference. .



On my truck, see sig, I got 19,973 (603 hours) miles from my last oil and the wear metals were starting to get abnormal, and the soot was 3. 0% (but still a 1, which is normal)... Thats with a, HDD, EaO080 and a EaBP-110. . no makeup oil added... So each truck is different. . About 2K of those miles were towing, the rest were rural or hwy, very little "city".

I believe when they say 50,00 miles/600 hours/1 year, is an application that only has an hour meter, or operated on time only, then the 600 hours would come into play. If one traveled more than 50,000 miles in a year, then the 1 year would apply. If on the other hand a stationary engine, such as a Generator would run 600 hours in less than a year, the change would have to be made at the 600 hour mark.

At least this is how it was explained to me.



Wayne

 

[AH64ID]

I believe when they say 50,00 miles/600 hours/1 year, is an application that only has an hour meter, or operated on time only, then the 600 hours would come into play. If one traveled more than 50,000 miles in a year, then the 1 year would apply. If on the other hand a stationary engine, such as a Generator would run 600 hours in less than a year, the change would have to be made at the 600 hour mark.

At least this is how it was explained to me.



Wayne

Then its a change form the standard interval, becuase every other oil its when you reach any one of the intervals...



On my wifes 4runner, ASL, EaO015, EaBp-090, only gets about 8K a year. . but after 1 year and 8K the TBN is down below 2, yet the oil is almost as clean, visually and per UOA, as it was new, so the year certainly applies... So I could see the 600 hours for standard trucks as well. . Besides aren't off-road engines still on a different emissions teir and still using CI-4?

 

[amsoilman]

Then its a change form the standard interval, becuase every other oil its when you reach any one of the intervals...



On my wifes 4runner, ASL, EaO015, EaBp-090, only gets about 8K a year. . but after 1 year and 8K the TBN is down below 2, yet the oil is almost as clean, visually and per UOA, as it was new, so the year certainly applies... So I could see the 600 hours for standard trucks as well. . Besides aren't off-road engines still on a different emissions teir and still using CI-4?

I think you can look at the Recommended Drain Interval Chart at this link:



https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1490.pdf

If I read it correctly, they are putting the DEO and the DME oils in the same catagory as Personal Light truck Vehicles with Diesel Fueled Engines, stating 3 X OEM recommendations, not to exceed 50,000 miles/600 hours or 1 year.



Again the hours pertain to Stationary Engines, and not OTR trucks or personal vehicles, as they would normaly have odometers to track miles.



Wayne

 

[AABEN]

Well boys I will keep right on using my Premiun Blue Classic. It has had a very good report from BLACKSTONE ON ALL OIL CHANGES 3/4 of the miles on her is running with 22. 000+lb acrose mountains and deserts.

 

[AH64ID]

I think you can look at the Recommended Drain Interval Chart at this link:



https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g1490.pdf

If I read it correctly, they are putting the DEO and the DME oils in the same catagory as Personal Light truck Vehicles with Diesel Fueled Engines, stating 3 X OEM recommendations, not to exceed 50,000 miles/600 hours or 1 year.



Again the hours pertain to Stationary Engines, and not OTR trucks or personal vehicles, as they would normaly have odometers to track miles.



Wayne

While that is probably the case it is not explained anywhere and they are the only 2 oil showing any sort of hour rating. . Even the AME (Marine oil) doesn't have an hour block.



But based on the simple fact that 50,000 miles in 600 hours would be an average of 83. 3 its probably that they meant it seaparte and just haven't updated the rest of the products.



What I find the most odd is that Dodge rated the 3rd gen at 7500 miles schedule B and 15000 miles schedule A... By 10K miles I had 2. 6% soot WITH a bypass... and they were not hard miles... Now I do use the fool out of my exhaust brake, but still that is a TON of soot, how can a motor w/out a bypass ever go 15K?

 

[amsoilman]

While that is probably the case it is not explained anywhere and they are the only 2 oil showing any sort of hour rating. . Even the AME (Marine oil) doesn't have an hour block.

I think it has to do with the new API CJ-4 oil, the DEO and the DME. The AME is, as you know a API CI-4 plus. Of course any of these oils can go beyond based on oil analysis. However, as you have found in your application, even with the by-pass, yours is not going as long, for whatever reasons. At least with oil analysis there is no guess work involved!



In my application, I am still going strong with over 70 K on the oil.



Wayne

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

ANYWAY, as a return to the original issue of this thread, for years, I was guilty of adding (gasp!) STP to the oil in my vehicles, as well as many related and unrelated lube functions - yeah got laughed at - and -probably will again - but I always had great results with it, especially in older high mileage cars, in terms of greatly reduced smoking and oil consumption.



Sure, when the greatly educated and learned oil company experts include Zinc derivatives in their oils, it's seen as a "GOOD" thing, and a great and beneficial additive with valuable assets - and that nasty 'ol STP - what is *it's* major and beneficial additive? (Gasp again!) Z-I-N-C! :-laf:-laf



BUT, of course, it's not been blessed by any of the "big guys", so will undoubtedly still be on the chuckles list for any of the unenlightened snake-oil consumers stupid enough to actually buy and use it...



After all, the rest of us mere mortals don't have nearly the education and witchcraft knowledge as those corporate cauldron-stirrers and incantation spielers do... :-laf



I continued with the STP in my '91 Dodge/Cummins with great results - got the absolute BEST EVER wear numbers with it in my engine lube, and only stopped using it when I bought the new '02 I currently drive - and was impressed enough with the enhanced DELO 400 CI-4Plus lube with it's Boron and Molydenum additives, as to accept it as the best of the non-synthetics available for use in my engine - I bought several 5-gallon cases of the stuff, and still have enough on hand for about 5 year's worth of oil changes at current truck usage. No STP so far in the '02.



After that, if nothing equivalent is yet available, it will be STP again, with no hesitation! :-laf

 

[CKelley1]

ah64id the soot problem with the 04. 5 up is what i was saying is the limiting factor and on this series no ones oil will get any longer drain interval than any one else not even 1,000 miles. the base stock weather dino or synthetic makes any difference and the additive package on both will be like new but you will have to change oil because no more soot can be handled. the by pass filter filters out most of the size carbon particles that causes wear but can not trap the soot. only one filter out there might trap most of the soot and that is the frantz but in a 04. 5 you will go through toilet paper faster than your wife does and i prefer driving to changing toilet paper. i think on our series the best thing to do is pick the oil of your choice and change about every 10,000 miles but for any other series if you wanted to, the longer drain interval is a option. we got off the original question he asked about the additive changes but i think we waded around in there enough that he got his answer

 

[AH64ID]

ah64id the soot problem with the 04. 5 up is what i was saying is the limiting factor and on this series no ones oil will get any longer drain interval than any one else not even 1,000 miles. the base stock weather dino or synthetic makes any difference and the additive package on both will be like new but you will have to change oil because no more soot can be handled. the by pass filter filters out most of the size carbon particles that causes wear but can not trap the soot. only one filter out there might trap most of the soot and that is the frantz but in a 04. 5 you will go through toilet paper faster than your wife does and i prefer driving to changing toilet paper. i think on our series the best thing to do is pick the oil of your choice and change about every 10,000 miles but for any other series if you wanted to, the longer drain interval is a option. we got off the original question he asked about the additive changes but i think we waded around in there enough that he got his answer

Yes I know that the 04. 5+ produces the most soot from the in-cylinder EGR and the 3rd event. . but is also carries the longest OEM drain interval of any CTD. . explain that.



My oil only got . 4% more soot from 10K to 20K, and neither were considered abnormal for the 5. 9, but I still changed it at 20K. . I am hoping that since that was my first go with a bypass there was a lot left over from the previous oil changes.

 

[CKelley1]

i never read the book on drain interval and can not figuer out how they could claim more. on your bypass filter it will work better if you drain all of the oil out of it and put it back on at each oil change. just before a oil change take the return cap loose with the motor rulling and if oil is coming out it does not need a new one

 

[AH64ID]

I was told by 2 different tech's at amsoil that the EaBP's have internal bypasses so they will still flow if they are plugged. So there isn't a real good way to tell if they are plugged or not. I figure there is enough soot in our oil that they will fill up quicker than on an older engine. .

 

[CKelley1]

i do not think so on the faster cloged up glad to know about the bypass i will install a differental gauge across the amsoil and give you a feed back. the ones on my home built ones do not have have the by pass in them my filter mounts are built by me on my mill and lathe, i make my own orifice and install it on the truck filter housing . i am using mostly luberfiner lf9750 filters and do not think they will fill up before 2 or 3 hundred thousand miles after reading what you said i think i will put a 15 psi gauge on the input to the filter and log it every oil change over the next two or three years. wayne will you find out what that by pass pressure is.