Oil Analized

[stick]

I just received my third test of my Amsoil 5W-30 Series 3000. The first two test were fine, but the third test came back with high Copper levels (106).
I run the Dual Bypass filters,and change the full-flow filter at 12000.
Am I running too long between filter changes, or is there something else going on with my motor? My 97 4x4 truck now has aprox. 85000 miles.

 

[illflem]

I don't think your problem is depleted oil. Copper and alloys usually comes from wearing bearings or bushings. . How high was your reading?

 

[rhoads]

Have to dig out my last test results,as i remember if i add up all my total numbers i cant come halv way to that.
By-pass filters are just that--bypass. only about a third of the oil flow will head there way. Some one wil jump on this one. Smoke and mirror's.
The filters have nothing to do with the high numbers.
Don't panic yet. re-test next oil change,
you did'nt state what your last two test numbers were and need to see the dirt numbers
(silicant). What are all your numbers on all three test?
Did they give you a reading on the lube??

------------------
96-3500 SLT EXT. CAB AM/FM/CD-RINO LINER. D-CELERATOR EXH. BRK-RED LINE VAC. OVER HYD BRK CONTROL- AIR BAGS W/HVY DUTY AIR COMP. PUTCO S/STEEL DEEPBOARDS FRONT TO REAR. REESE 20K 5TH WHEEL & GOOSE -REESE 20K HITCH BELOW W/17K RECEVER. CLEAR COATED & SOUND DEADINGING &UNDER COATED 5 SPD/W 4:10 MCHLN'S 235/16'S UNIDEN PC76/WEATHER-WILSON 1000 MAG MOUNT ANT. 4 WHL ANTI LOC BRK SYS.
750,000 miles

 

[Missouri Mule]

stick,
This is from Oil analyzers brochure.
Everything that has copper in it that can disperse/wear into oil.
journal bearings
bushings
gasket materials
oil additive
oil cooler
oil pump bushing
thrust washers
valve quides
wrist pins- bushings
Did you add oil aadditive?
I have read that the oil coolers wear out usually dumping oil into coolant or coolant into oil or maybe just leaking I'll have to research archives for syptoms but this could be early sign of the oil cooler wearing out or another componet.

------------------
Bill Thomas
Missouri Mule - 96 Wht 4X4 ST CC,5 spd, 3. 54, 8 ft bed, 1 ft high cheater boards.
99 Freightliner bl/wht FL60 ISB-5. 9 24v,215 hp,520 tq,6 spd, 3. 59 nsr,16 ft box, 19. 5 tires,Wt/gvw 11,000/23000

 

[Missouri Mule]

Went and checked out archives oil invades the coolant through oil cooler big time when it develops a leak.

 

[Hogan]

Originally posted by stick:
[B I run the Dual Bypass filters,and change the full-flow filter at 12000.
Am I running too long between filter changes, or is there something else going on with my motor? My 97 4x4 truck now has aprox. 85000 miles. [/B]

AMSoil specifically says:

Change AMSOIL Full-Flow Oil Filters at 12,500 mile or six month intervals, whichever comes first, in gasoline engines. In diesel engines, change AMSOIL Full-Flow Oil Filters at 7000 mile or six month intervals, whichever comes first.

You're going close to twice as long as you should between filter changes!

I believe in synthetic oils, but I don't trust AMSoil. 95% marketing, 5% reality. None of their oils are API Certified except for the XL-7500 series oil, which isn't extended drain. Not being API certified basically means they don't have to ensure their products really meet requirements and as the consumer, there's no way for you to know that the product really does meet those requirements. Anyone could market vegetable oil as a motor oil and give it an API service rating, doesn't guarantee a thing since it's not API Certified. Anyway, that's off-topic from this. The main point I wanted to bring up is that yes, you are going quite a bit past the proper filter change interval. I won't go into my opinions on extended drains, that's a can of worms I'm going to avoid. #ad


------------------
'97 2500 CC SLT 4x2, B5. 9, NV4500HD, 3. 54s, slid torque plate, no silencer ring
'98 Jeep Cherokee
'47 Willys CJ-2A, 302 v8, auto, 5. 38s, locked and ready to ROCK.

 

[Sled Puller]

STICK,
Please give us more info, when are you changing the By-Pass filters for one?

I ran 35,000 miles on My 5W-30, NO BY-PASS, and my Copper was 6!!!!!
Maybe a fuel additive?
Let us know the other numbers also please.

Gene

Posted by Hogan:
"I believe in synthetic oils, but I don't trust AMSOIL. 95% marketing, 5% reality. "

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF OR DOCUMENTATION?

" Not being API certified basically means they don't have to ensure their products really meet requirements and as the consumer, there's no way for you to know that the product really does meet those requirements. "

THE CONSUMER HAS 28 YEARS OF SATISFIED CUSTOMERS AND NO ENGINE FAILURES.

And test after test after test that their product works, and meets or EXCEEDS all API specs.
If you have info that AMSOIL does NOT meet API specs, please let us know, and I will be the first in line to sue them for false advertising.

The XL7500 IS an extended drain oil, in gas engines that call for 3000 mile changes, 7500 is extended.
It has been tested to 23,000+ miles before a change is required. So 7500 is well within the "safe" limits of that oil.
Gene

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1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled. Amsoil Premiere Direct Jobber, Member of: NRA Business Alliance, GLTDR, WANTED: Wrecked Dodges.
www.awdist.com

[This message has been edited by MGM (edited 03-25-2001). ]

 

[amsoilman]

Stick,
If the first two analysis reports were normal for the copper as well as all the other metals, and now the copper shows up as 106 ppm, and the other metals are within spec, I would guess the high copper level is coming from the oil cooler. If the copper is the only wear-metal that is out of tolerence, this would indicate a "copper" only component part, and the cooler is made of copper. I have been taking oil samples on many Dodge/Cummins engines in the past several years, and I have encountered this very thing on two occasions. On one of those, the cooler was replaced on the insistance of the owner. On the other one, the filters were changed and the next oil analysis showed the copper level was OK. That particular engine is still on the same oil at 84,000 miles.

Wayne

------------------
94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.
Wayne Owen

[This message has been edited by amsoilman (edited 03-25-2001). ]

 

[redram]

Originally posted by MGM:
STICK,
" Not being API certified basically means they don't have to ensure their products really meet requirements and as the consumer, there's no way for you to know that the product really does meet those requirements. "

THE CONSUMER HAS 28 YEARS OF SATISFIED CUSTOMERS AND NO ENGINE FAILURES.

And test after test after test that their product works, and meets or EXCEEDS all API specs.

Then why do they not get API Licensed?
My older brother used Amsoil and blew up a Ford Van. That was an engine failure. How can you say "NO ENGINE FAILURES". And why are you yelling at us? (All Caps)

Just more Amsoil hype, I guess!

------------------

 

[Hogan]

Originally posted by MGM:

Posted by Hogan:
"I believe in synthetic oils, but I don't trust AMSOIL. 95% marketing, 5% reality. "

DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF OR DOCUMENTATION?

My proof is in the increased cost over other synthetics, the poor marketing tactics of their "salesman" and the incorrect info they commonly give out, the fact that AMSoil has no plans to certify their oil... I can see their reasoning behind it, and that's another reason I don't trust them. API certification means the formula has a) met the standards and b) Will be consistent from one oil change to the next. Pure speculation here, but my gut tells me AMSoil gets their base oil and additives from the companies that have the lowest bid. Not only does this change the formulation of the oil, I really wonder if they test for compatability with the previous formulations or just go with it. Certain oil additives are not compatabile with eachother and end up attacking eachother thinking it's a contaminant, while at the same time attacking the metal in your engine.

" Not being API certified basically means they don't have to ensure their products really meet requirements and as the consumer, there's no way for you to know that the product really does meet those requirements. "

THE CONSUMER HAS 28 YEARS OF SATISFIED CUSTOMERS AND NO ENGINE FAILURES.

And do YOU have any proof or documentation to back that up? Or do you quote the sales lit AMSoil gives you as gospel?

And test after test after test that their product works, and meets or EXCEEDS all API specs.
If you have info that AMSOIL does NOT meet API specs, please let us know, and I will be the first in line to sue them for false advertising.

I'm sure Slick 50 had tests showing their product made improvements as well, but until AMSoil puts their money where their mouth is and certifies their oil, they simply won't get a 2nd thought from me.

The XL7500 IS an extended drain oil, in gas engines that call for 3000 mile changes, 7500 is extended.

If you look in vehicle manuals, 3000miles is the "severe" oil change schedule while 7500 miles is typically the "normal" oil change schedule, thus the XL-7500 oil is *not* extended drain. It simply calls for changes at normal intervals.

It has been tested to 23,000+ miles before a change is required. So 7500 is well within the "safe" limits of that oil.
Gene

You'd be surprised how much oil besides AMSoil would be considered "safe" long past its due date with regular filter changes and oil top offs... oil that costs atleast half as much.

Can you give any reason why someone should use AMSoil, an expensive, hard to get, non-certified oil over, say, Mobil 1 which is cheaper, more readily available, and API certified? Extended drain doesn't count, I'm looking for other reasons.

My dad's '73 F100 truck went nearly 300k miles on its original engine, infrequent oil changes and tune-ups, constant dusty conditions... I could say it was the $. 75/qt grocery store oil that did it, but that would be silly. The 300ci I6 is a great engine that lasts forever, that's what I give credit to for lasting 300k miles.

Just my long-winded $0. 02 on the subject. #ad


------------------
'97 2500 CC SLT 4x2, B5. 9, NV4500HD, 3. 54s, slid torque plate, no silencer ring
'98 Jeep Cherokee
'47 Willys CJ-2A, 302 v8, auto, 5. 38s, locked and ready to ROCK.

 

[stick]

Here is the report on my oil:
Glycol- neg
%Water- <0. 05
%Fuel- <1. 0
Soot- <1. 0
%Oxd- 11. 1 (up from <1. 0)
%Nox- 14. 3
Iron- 52
Chromium- 3
Lead- 6
Copper- *106*
Tin- 2
Aluminum- 10
Nickle- 0
Silver- 0
Manganese- 1
Silicon- 7
Boron- 37
Sodium- 0
Magnesium- 21 (down from 227)
Calcium- 4311
Barium- 0
Phosphorus- 1205
Zinc- 1365
Molybdenum- 0
Titanium- 0
Vanadium- 0
Cadmium- 0

This test was with 25377 miles on oil.
I have been looseing a small amount of coolant somewhere, but iv'e looked very hard and cannot find any trace of a leak.

------------------
97 2500 4x4 5spd. TST/605. Exhaust Brake. Amsoil Dual Remote.

 

[Sled Puller]

Hogan,
"Pure speculation here, but my gut tells me ... ..... "

My point exactly. Your gut feeling. Nothing to back it up, just what you assume on your own. Not a problem. You are a consumer, and can decide what you want to use on your own.
Like I said, if you think Amsoil has done some false advertising, be my guest to sue them.
Mobil One vs Amsoil, no extended drains.
Looking at numbers, Amsoil is clearly better. How MUCH better? Well, Amsoil will guarantee an extended drain, but you don't want to hear about that. Is it worth the cost? Your choice, not mine.
But I'm sure you will say this is just "hype" anyway.

A VI of 196 is very impressive, I think.
Here is the data on 0W-30 http://amsoil.com/products/tso.html

Find out what Mobils is and let us know. Look on their website.

BTW, you mention Slick 50. They DID false advertise, and had to pay a 10 MILLION Dollar fine to the FTC.

Redram:
Your brother used Amsoil and blew up his van. #ad
Did your brother get an oil sample and send it to Amsoil?
I blew up a truck and was using Pennzoil, I didn't blame the oil! Come on!
So what you are saying is: If you use Amsoil, and your engine blows up it is Amsoil's fault. If you don't use Amsoil, it is a mechanical failure.
I do know of a guy who was stealing Air compressor oil from work and blew up his engine, so there is one for ya.
I use CAPS to stress a point.
Gene

Stick,
What mileage are you changing BOTH filters?

 

[Sled Puller]

Dan Watson explains API quite well:

I have often wondered if Amsoil is such a great oil then why is not certified by the API? How about possible warrenty issues raised by using an oil that does not have the API donut?

-----------------------------------
There is such a misunderstanding about the API donut and licensing. Those are simply the API's method of raising revenue. The standards are posted by the API. This means that a series of certifying test are established by the API to meet OEM specifications. When an oil company test it's oil and is satisfied it meets the requirements then they wubmit the results to the API. For a fee the API then licenses the oil. Amsoil submits the oil to an independent lab who certifies the oil meets the test requirements. The API only recently begin the licensing program to "ensure the quality of oil. " The interesting thing is that the API accepts in house testing for this process and doesn't reqiure independent testing. For independent lube manufacturers the use of independent labs is a more stringent requirement to meet the spec's. Also, the OEM's warranty only specifies the oil must meet the API spec's not be licensed. They can't quite get away with that abuse of power under federeal law.
Dan Watson
AdvancedLubeTech

 

[Hogan]

Originally posted by MGM:

Hogan,
"Pure speculation here, but my gut tells me ... ..... "

My point exactly. Your gut feeling. Nothing to back it up, just what you assume on your own. Not a problem. You are a consumer, and can decide what you want to use on your own.

Yet you do nothing to prove or disprove my theories, so I assume you have nothing to contest what I said either. #ad
The only difference between us is one is for and one is against the product. #ad
This is what I'm talking about. Claims are being made with nothing to back them up, yet somehow my gut feeling is somehow less likely? I don't think so. As for VI on 0w30:


Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
0W-30

AMSOIL 188 460 -76 --- ---
Mobil 1 175 460 -65 --- ---


Not a huge spread there...

I'm not trying to convert anyone, people use what they want and trust, but all these empty claims and dismissing what other people say without producing any facts to disprove theories are what I'm talking about. I'm not claiming to be correct in what I said above, just logical conclusions I've come to, but on the same token I've seen nothing that says I didn't conclude correct. Feel free to give me some hard data to disprove my statements, otherwise your statements are opinion just like mine. #ad


------------------
'97 2500 CC SLT 4x2, B5. 9, NV4500HD, 3. 54s, slid torque plate, no silencer ring
'98 Jeep Cherokee
'47 Willys CJ-2A, 302 v8, auto, 5. 38s, locked and ready to ROCK.

 

[Hogan]

Originally posted by MGM:
Dan Watson explains API quite well:

I have often wondered if Amsoil is such a great oil then why is not certified by the API? How about possible warrenty issues raised by using an oil that does not have the API donut?

"Dr. Watson" is wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. If you read your manual, it says in at least two places to use API Certified oil, not just API rated. CERTIFIED. Due to this and the other wrong information Dr Watson said, I have no problem dismissing what he said. API Certification to increase revenue? Get real. Sounds like another AMSoil salesman. #ad
Certification guarantees the oil meets at least the MINIMUM requirements for motor oil. Uncertified oil has no promise, there's no way to know it really meets the claimed rating. Dr. Watson is simply trying to make up bogus excuses to justify non-certified oil. That don't fly and just adds to why I dislike AMSoil's marketing.

------------------
'97 2500 CC SLT 4x2, B5. 9, NV4500HD, 3. 54s, slid torque plate, no silencer ring
'98 Jeep Cherokee
'47 Willys CJ-2A, 302 v8, auto, 5. 38s, locked and ready to ROCK.

 

[illflem]

Right on Hogan!!!

Gene, and you thought I hassled you about this important matter of certification.

 

[Sled Puller]

Everytime we give hard data, (your#are wrong,BTW) you disclaim it as sales hype!!!!!!!

I want proof!
here is proof!
Nope, that is sales hype!

The evidence is out there, read, make your own desicisions.

Gosh Hogan, you sound like a certain salesman from another company! Maybe he is a friend of yours?

You boys just keep on believing what you want, I'll keep running the best and enjoying it!!
I guess the real question is why you,Hogan, were trying to discredit Stick on his choice of oils or drain practices?

Gene

 

[HEMI®Dart]

I found this at the Amsoil Home page. I know this is for trans fluid, but it appears Amsoil will stand behind thier product 100%


... ..... If someone is misinformed on this issue and actually denies a manufacturer’s warranty coverage because of the use of AMSOIL Universal ATF Fluid in one of the applications for which it is recommended by AMSOIL INC. , the AMSOIL Warranty coverage would apply. The consumer’s transmission would be repaired under the AMSOIL Warranty. AMSOIL INC. and our insurance company will legally pursue the dealership or the manufacturer to recover our costs. AMSOIL INC. would not make the recommendations on our label, or issue this statement, if we were not completely confident of our position on this matter. While we cannot control what individuals say about this subject, we can and do insure that consumers can use our product with complete confidence and without risk.

 

[stick]

Sorry, I didn't mean to start a war on oil prefrences. I just need help on what might be the problem with my truck!

------------------
97 2500 4x4 5spd. TST/605. Exhaust Brake. Amsoil Dual Remote.

 

[Hogan]

Originally posted by MGM:
Everytime we give hard data, (your#are wrong,BTW) you disclaim it as sales hype!!!!!!!

My numbers are wrong? Which ones? The VI numbers? Hey, update your info, I got it from AMSOIL'S WEBSITE. #ad

I want proof!
here is proof!
Nope, that is sales hype!

The evidence is out there, read, make your own desicisions.

Isn't it obvious that I have made my own decisions thus far? I haven't seen you produce any proof yet, except for the incorrect info you have posted. It's not proof if it's wrong. Your VI numbers were wrong, Don Watson was wrong about API cert, you were wrong about XL-7500 being extended drain. Are those the "facts" and proof you're referring to? I sure hope not. How about some references to tests and people that have no affiliation with AMSoil? I would like to see an independant/private party submit oil to be tested to an independant lab and see the results. It's common knowledge that results can be "bought" or made in favor of the person or company that is submitting their product for testing. If you're not aware that this happens, you should do some more reading.

Gosh Hogan, you sound like a certain salesman from another company! Maybe he is a friend of yours?

I have no idea who you're referring to, so whatever that comment was supposed to mean is beyond me. I guess that was supposed to be some kind of insult. Oh well, nice try. #ad

You boys just keep on believing what you want, I'll keep running the best and enjoying it!!

That's fine with me, I said before I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just giving my opinion and if I think someone could use a little more info on something they use, I'll give it. Stick didn't realize he was going close to 2x as far as he should between filter changes (even according to AMSoil), and knowing how AMSoil resellers are, I figured he could use some info from parties not selling the stuff. #ad
It's not uncommon to see AMSoil salespeople misinterpret the sales lit they get. I had one swear up and down that all of AMSoil's products were API Certified. His reasoning was that they all had the API Rating on the label and that must mean they're certified.

I guess the real question is why you,Hogan, were trying to discredit Stick on his choice of oils or drain practices?

Because his filter change interval WAS wrong, even according to AMSoil's website, perhaps? I don't believe I said anything about extended drain other than I didn't want to open that can of worms. People can decide when to change their oil, be it based on marketing jive or having an oil sample tested or just going by what the manufacturer recommends. The one thing you can't argue, however, is that no matter how good the product and what the sales lit says, going 4x or more past the manufacturer's drain intervals can and will be considered abuse and neglect, which is specifically not covered under your vehicle's warranty.

Use what you want, it doesn't affect me in any way. I will say, however, I've yet to see someone recommend AMSoil that isn't an avid reseller of it, which is part of AMSoil's plan I guess. Anyone can sell it and they do nothing to ensure correct info is passed on to potential customers. You could claim it turns into gold when you drain it to get more sales, AMSoil doesn't seem to care.

It's funny, you don't see these threads about Red Line oil, do you? Totally different marketing, and I do use their gear lube based on consumer, not sales, recommendations with fine results.

Have a good one, Gene. This has been entertaining to say the least. #ad


------------------
'97 2500 CC SLT 4x2, B5. 9, NV4500HD, 3. 54s, slid torque plate, no silencer ring
'98 Jeep Cherokee
'47 Willys CJ-2A, 302 v8, auto, 5. 38s, locked and ready to ROCK.

[This message has been edited by Hogan (edited 03-25-2001). ]