Oil Analysis Question

[JoelMartin]

My 05 has about 65,000 miles on it. I ran semi-synthetic Mystik 15w50 in it with 3,000 mile intervals until 55,000 miles; then I put in synthetic Schaeffers 15w40 for the last 10,000 miles. I just sent a sample in to Schaeffers and everything was normal except the copper was 184. Normal is 40, Abnormal is 40-100, severe is 100-200, and extra severe is 200+. They said high copper without a contributing reason, may be from copper core leaching (CCL) of the oil cooler. My question is; what is copper core leaching and how do you stop it?

 

[05mxdiesel]

"Per Caterpillar, high levels of copper found in oil analysis are a result of engine cooler core” leaching". The Zinc additive in Diesel Motor oil reacts with the copper cooler core tubes at high oil temperatures. This chemical reaction results in copper oxidation products forming on the surface of the tubes and then coming off into the oil as it washes over and around the tubes. Heat is a catalyst to this chemical reaction. The higher the oil temperature the greater the rate of oxidation and the longer the reaction process is sustained. This does not cause any damage to the cooler core, or to the engine. However, you will see the copper reading elevate to over 100 PPM. Copper is not a particulate in this case but is in solution in the oil. The PPM will start relatively low and increase over 100 PPM and stay at high levels for several intervals, and then return to normal. During the oxidation process, a hard film forms on the tube surfaces exhibiting the appearance of clear varnish. Changes in operating temperatures, and/or changing oil brands can chemically disrupt this film and begin the oxidative leaching processes again. This can occur in any system with a cooler core: Gasoline or Diesel engines transmissions or hydraulic systems. "



Amsoilman posted this a while back. By the way did you do any UOA's on the mystik?

 

[JoelMartin]

Hey thanks for the answer! The truck is up for sale anyway but I just wanted to make sure it's alright. No I never tested the Mystik.

 

[steved]

Changing oil brands sometimes has this affect... causes copper spikes in the Cummins.

I have never seen any posting if a detrimental effect from it in the Cummins...

 

[amsoilman]

My 05 has about 65,000 miles on it. I ran semi-synthetic Mystik 15w50 in it with 3,000 mile intervals until 55,000 miles; then I put in synthetic Schaeffers 15w40 for the last 10,000 miles. I just sent a sample in to Schaeffers and everything was normal except the copper was 184. Normal is 40, Abnormal is 40-100, severe is 100-200, and extra severe is 200+. They said high copper without a contributing reason, may be from copper core leaching (CCL) of the oil cooler. My question is; what is copper core leaching and how do you stop it?

Here is something that Caterpiller determined:



"Per Caterpillar, high levels of copper found in oil analysis are a result of engine cooler core” leaching". The Zinc additive in Diesel Motor oil reacts with the copper cooler core tubes at high oil temperatures. This chemical reaction results in copper oxidation products forming on the surface of the tubes and then coming off into the oil as it washes over and around the tubes. Heat is a catalyst to this chemical reaction. The higher the oil temperature the greater the rate of oxidation and the longer the reaction process is sustained. This does not cause any damage to the cooler core, or to the engine. However, you will see the copper reading elevate to over 100 PPM. Copper is not a particulate in this case but is in solution in the oil. The PPM will start relatively low and increase over 100 PPM and stay at high levels for several intervals, and then return to normal. During the oxidation process, a hard film forms on the tube surfaces exhibiting the appearance of clear varnish. Changes in operating temperatures, and/or changing oil brands can chemically disrupt this film and begin the oxidative leaching processes again. This can occur in any system with a cooler core: Gasoline or Diesel engines transmissions or hydraulic systems. "





Wayne

amsooilman

 

[scottmcd]

what should i look for in my oil test. What #'s do i want to see and which ones do i not want to see? TIA. SCOTT

 

[LandShark]

Joel: Another possibility is a bad analysis. Have another done at a different lab and see what you get. Don't ask me how I know this can happen.

 

[steved]

what should i look for in my oil test. What #'s do i want to see and which ones do i not want to see? TIA. SCOTT

Metals indicating wear in the low ranges... these are typically iron, aluminum, lead, chromium...



Metals and elements of the additive package in the higher ranges... these are typically calcium, boron, molybdenum, zinc.



TBN above 2, viscosity within range, no fuel or antifreeze.



Silicon can be several things... remnant sealer (silicone sealer, if parts were just replaced), indications of dirt passing an airfilter, or anti-foam additive.



And don't get hung up on a single UOA, trends are needed to really show engine condition... and these indicators vary from engine to engine and oil to oil, they are not easy to compare to another.

 

[amsoilman]

Joel,

It is best to do several oil analysis before you can get a "trend" to look at the various "wear metals" and contaminants in the oil.

To get the best analysis, it is also best to get the oil from the same spot each time the oil sample is drawn. Also make sure the oil is at the operating temperature when the sample is drawn.



THere have been some on this site who try to compare theirs with others, thinking because the engines and the trucks are the same they will get basicly the same results in the same amount of mile/time. This is not the case, as no two engines are the same, even in the same make and model.



If you are going to extend your oil drain intervals, you should do the oil analysis on a continueing basis with set intervals, then watch for a trend in the wear metals as well as the additives within the oil. Most reputable Oil analysis labs will tell you if you are starting to get into trouble way before you have a mechanical problem that is oil related. As someone already pointed out, the Viscosity is the most important. Make sure it is still in the limits for the oil grade you are useing.





Wayne

 

[OT-OF-HERE!!]

I need oil and filter analysis

Who does this in the St. Louis area.

 

[Mrudolph]

My 05 has about 65,000 miles on it. I ran semi-synthetic Mystik 15w50 in it with 3,000 mile intervals until 55,000 miles; then I put in synthetic Schaeffers 15w40 for the last 10,000 miles. I just sent a sample in to Schaeffers and everything was normal except the copper was 184. Normal is 40, Abnormal is 40-100, severe is 100-200, and extra severe is 200+. They said high copper without a contributing reason, may be from copper core leaching (CCL) of the oil cooler. My question is; what is copper core leaching and how do you stop it?

I also have an 05 and my copper at 65,000mi was 7 with a TBN of 9. 2 I use Blacksone Labs for my testing, I should be doing another oil sample this weekend.