Oil analysis save your day - and engine?

[RTuvell]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

I'm just wondering if oil analysis is really cost-effective for the regular truck owner generally following dealer lube guidelines in ordinary day-to-day operation...

Cost effectiveness? At $10 for an oil analysis they are so inexpensive it is hard to believe that any "regular truck owner" would be concerned about the cost.



I'm a first time diesel owner who intends to live with this diesel for a while. I like the idea that an oil analysis could potentially reveal a problem. It makes sense to me that monitoring the oil could tell you some things that you would otherwise never know.



IMHO, spending $10 for an analysis is certainly not a big financial decision.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

IMHO, spending $10 for an analysis is certainly not a big financial decision.



Well, $10 is on the low side of what many pay - especially for the full report - but even using that figure and, say, 100K miles - oil changed every 5000 miles, yer talking $200 in oil analysis alone.



Maybe trivial to some, but if only 1 in a thousand reveals a significant problem - still worth it? Sure, SOME will gamble a few bucks every week on the lottery - odds FAR worse - and they figure it's still a good deal, and the money "trivial"...



Keep in mind, this is a Cummins oriented thread, and MOST here are only ordinary civilian types so the high mileage commercial rigs, multiple drivers, 24 hours a day, and Detroit Diesel, John Deere and Navistar REALLY don't apply - let's stick to the AVERAGE Dodge/Cummins owner...

 

[RTuvell]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

IMHO, spending $10 for an analysis is certainly not a big financial decision.



Well, $10 is on the low side of what many pay - especially for the full report - but even using that figure and, say, 100K miles - oil changed every 5000 miles, yer talking $200 in oil analysis alone.

I would like to try and get this $10 thing in context. If $10 is a big deal to Cummins owners then why aren't they extending their oil change intervals (i. e. cost of oil changes) to a more reasonable number like 10,000 miles instead of the low 5000 miles you assumed? If I changed my oil every 5000 miles I certainly wouldn't get an oil analysis at every change, but then I simply don't get the reasoning behind 5000 mile oil changes for "normal pickup truck diesels" (I'm not talking severe duty here).



$200 the way you chose to put it sounds like a lot of money. But, if you put 20,000 miles a year on your truck and you get an oil analysis every 10,000 miles then you are really talking about only a $20/year expenditure.



I'm sorry, but any way you cut it, IMHO the "cost" of an oil analysis for the typical Cummins pickup owner is a non issue.



Now, if you were to tell me that the oil analysis process was poor quality and won't tell me anything useful or that the people doing the analysis don't know what they are doing, then you've got my attention.

 

[guava]

In answer to Gary's question, yes. I have been 'saved' by doing oil analysis. 3 seperate occasions for my own equipment.



I should point out that a single analysis is just about useless. A sudden problem like the air intake crack is going to be caught. What about metal coming from a bearing or crank. Increase wear is usually going to show up in small increases of metal contaminates.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

$200 the way you chose to put it sounds like a lot of money. But, if you put 20,000 miles a year on your truck and you get an oil analysis every 10,000 miles then you are really talking about only a $20/year expenditure.



Just trying to keep things in perspective here, but IF you put 20,000 miles on yer truck per year - and only sample at 10,000 miles, that means that potentially you might put close to *6 months* on the truck before you next sample and find you have a problem! By THAT time, what ever IS wrong may be totally irreversable!



My example was using round numbers based upon what many members here have stated is their practice - and if oil analysis IS the great tool many suggest it is, *I* would sure want to sample far more often than every 6 months - perhaps quarterly - and that STILL allows quite a bit of miles to pile up if there IS a problem...



Interesting comments - keep 'em coming!

 

[RTuvell]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Just trying to keep things in perspective here, but IF you put 20,000 miles on yer truck per year - and only sample at 10,000 miles, that means that potentially you might put close to *6 months* on the truck before you next sample and find you have a problem! By THAT time, what ever IS wrong may be totally irreversable!



My example was using round numbers based upon what many members here have stated is their practice - and if oil analysis IS the great tool many suggest it is, *I* would sure want to sample far more often than every 6 months - perhaps quarterly - and that STILL allows quite a bit of miles to pile up if there IS a problem...

IMHO the "time" between oil changes and oil analysis (in your example 6 months) is almost totally irrelevant. For example, if you have only put 4000 miles on your truck in "6 months" it doesn't make much sense to change the oil or have it analyzed. IMHO the meaningful basis for changing oil and having it analyzed is "hours of operation" which for most of us commonly equates to "miles".



It seems we may be getting a little off topic here since your thread was directed at "oil analysis" and not "oil change intervals". However, they are related in a way. An oil analysis will commonly tell you whether or not your oil "still has life in it" or instead you should be changing it more frequently.



Maybe this is a way that oil analysis can benefit those who change oil at very low mileage such as 3750 - 5000 miles with no more basis than it gives them peace of mind. An oil analysis for these folks could show them whether or not their oil has more life left so they can feel comfortable going higher mileage between oil changes. They can then try 7500 mile oil changes with an analysis and see what it says about remaining oil life, ultimately progressing to something like 10,000 miles between changes. It certainly makes more sense to me to have a factual basis for mileage between oil changes then the "oil company's party line" of every 3000 miles.

 

[C Schomer]

I've been doing it on my truck for a few yrs. and on industrial equipment for about 18 years. The trending has been priceless at times - to avoid big failures. I've caught bad filters and seperators and even substandard oils a few times. Nothing drastic has shown up on my CTD but I've established more cost effective maintenance. The diff. oil analysis has been terrific! Yes, oil can look and smell great and have depleted additives. Analysis has revealed potential serious problems several times that were impossible to detect any other way. I'm not just talking about problems well into an extended service program that wouldn't matter to the regular guy. I'm talking about problems within a mfgrs. recommended service interval - the time frame when you least expect it. You can't beat good information! Analysis is like having a crystal ball for your lube and it's not just for extended maintenance! Craig

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Maybe this is a way that oil analysis can benefit those who change oil at very low mileage such as 3750 - 5000 miles with no more basis than it gives them peace of mind. An oil analysis for these folks could show them whether or not their oil has more life left so they can feel comfortable going higher mileage between oil changes. They can then try 7500 mile oil changes with an analysis and see what it says about remaining oil life, ultimately progressing to something like 10,000 miles between changes. It certainly makes more sense to me to have a factual basis for mileage between oil changes then the "oil company's party line" of every 3000 miles.



Good point - and is why I am currently involved in an extended drain "test" using Delo 400 - and analyzing at 5000 mile intervals to check oil condition - hoping to get out to about 15,000 miles on the oil before my conscience forces me to swap it out - sooner if analysis calls for it...

 

[DPelletier]

I'm following this thread with interest. For me, the cost is insignificant, but its my precious time that I'm concerned with. My time and effort to get the analysis done vs. the benefit is what I need to weigh.



Dave

 

[JARichard]

You would think that any one on here would NOT have problems. I put 7500 miles or less on oil and change it every 6 to 8 weeks. If it were a fuel leak wouldn't i see the crank case level rise. Or higher EGT's. $10 every six weeks would get expensive. The most

 

[amsoilman]

It certainly makes more sense to me to have a factual basis for mileage between oil changes then the "oil company's party line" of every 3000 miles.

That's just it, the oil Companies are the only ones telling people to "Change your oil every 3,000 miles"! I have not changed oil at 3,000 miles on any vehicle I have had for nearly 25 years!



My last Diesel was driven by me for 150,000 miles, and it was only drained one time, just because I wanted to try a different grade oil. (5W-30 HDD) This was over a 9 year time frame.



I had the oil analyzed every 10,000 miles, so I knew what was going on within the engine, and I also knew the oil was still functional. The first 105,000 the analysis tests cost me $10. 50 each, but since then they have gone to $14. 95 each. In any case, the total cost for oil analysis over the 150,000/9 year span, was less than $180. 00. Very good insurance in my mind!



If I were going to drain my oil every 3-5,000 miles, then I might forget about doing oil analysis, however, since I am convinced todays oils are better than they were 10-15 years ago, I still would not drain oil at 3-5,000 miles and let the oil Companies dictate when I should change. Everyone should know the oil these days is of much higher quality than they were a decade ago. Just ask GM, as they have just gone to a monitoring system which will allow longer drain intervals, using a patented Oil Life System and is engine specific. In other words, GM is not telling the car owner to change oil at a "specified" mileage or time frame.



The system they are useing is very similar to the Mercedes-Benz service system, which has been used for several years now, and they say 10-20,000 miles is very common.





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[C Schomer]

I went to the syn/analysis/bypass filter/ext. change program so I wouldn't have to change on the road. I've only seen one drawback, so far. Once I get to about 20k miles the oil usage starts going up rapidly even tho the reports don't show anything wrong with the oil, visc. or additives. I change oil and the usage goes back to zero for many 1000s of miles again. It's happened with LEs best and the RP. I think there is something that the test doesn't find but I don't care at that point. I got my $$ worth out of the oil by then. Has anyone else seen that happen to theirs? Craig

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Wayne, those GM extended drain programs, do you know if they use a synthetic, or dino oils - or do they care as long as it meets spec?

 

[guava]

I've got two aviation engines that get tested frequently depending on usage. For me, the safety factor makes it important enough to do it. I've been able to detect when parts are failing in the engines before the damage becomes catastrophic and creates a very heavy glider. Not quite the same as a 1000# diesel engine but I prefer to treat it the same.

 

[amsoilman]

Wayne, those GM extended drain programs, do you know if they use a synthetic, or dino oils - or do they care as long as it meets spec?

Gary,

The article is in "Lubes N Greases May 2004, Vol. 10 issue 5" Which has the story. It said the GM monitors would allow motorists to drive 5,000 and as much as 7,000 miles using regular "petroleum" based oils, and the motorists should depend on the (OLS) Oil Life System. The article went on to say the system uses data from a computer that takes in to consideration Temperature, RPM, and speed. It was also pointed out in the article that during the testing of the system, GM senior project Engineer "Robert Stockwell" has been studying oil analysis from all the vehicles they had used with the system installed. He was quoted as saying many of the vehicles had more than 10,000 miles on the oil, and a few had 14,000 miles, and at least one had 16,000 miles, all using regular "mineral" oil. It went on to say that the Mercedes-Benz service system indicates 10-20,000 mile change intervals, but they "Must use synthetic oils".



Mercedes-Benz was sued last year for having a system that had tested the oil in their vehicles but not informed their US customers that it was calibrated for "synthetic" oils.



The OLS system was developed by Dr. Shirley Schwartz and tested over many Millions of miles of service.



The writer of the article, David McFall of Lubes N Greases, said "Clearly GM has unshackled its oil change indicator and soon there will be 34 million more cars on the road relying on the "Oil Life System".



There was much more, but I will not go on with it.





Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Bill Weber]

When I changed to Amsoil and a dual filtration system on my "97" (70,000 miles) I started having the oil analyzed by an outfit promoted by Amsoil. Went 25k on the first change. 75k on the last change. After the last sample the analysis came back better then the first sample. They screwed up. Didn't resample because I was getting a new 04 anyway. After 180k miles on the 97 it's oil consumption was the same as new. 1 qt/5000 miles.

 

[Greenleaf]

Someone added a page or two back that it's not economical to buy and perform oil tests and change oil every 3 or 5 thousand miles. That's right! Your not changing the oil..... until it's bad. I think amsoilman answered this well.



I said many posts back I had 16,200 Plus miles on a Cummins oil change.



-S

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks for the info Wayne!



And a small additional point on those trickling in commenting on extended drains, especially where the more expensive synthetics are being used - casual readers here potentially impressed by seeing statements as to 25-50,000 miles on the same oil should ALSO know that usually mormal filter changes are made - sometimes involving both the full-flow and a bypass filter. In those instances, 1 or more quarts of "makeup" oil must be added to comphensate for oil lost in the old filter and that needed to refill the new one(s).



Ya don't simply drop in a crankcase of oil, then truck on down the road for 50,000 care-free, no-maintenance miles!



In my case, using a Frantz toilet paper filter element, I change that out about every 2000 miles or so, and the stock full-flow at about 5000 miles - that typically involves the addition of 3 quarts of makeup oil - or about 25% of the total lube capacity in the Cummins. That assures proper maintenance of the lube additive package - but ALSO means that essentially ALL the oil in my crankcase will be cycled in about 20,000 miles. Not all that expensive when using dino oils - but the expense of added oil, dino OR synthetic, needs to be recognized and factored in when some of these claims are made, along with the included expense of the then-needed oil analysis.



In my case, if I was using a popular $10 a quart synthetic, and doing oil analysis every 10,000 miles, I would spend about $60 for oil, and another $15 or so for oil analysis - a total cost of about $75...



OR, I could simply use dino oil, and fully change it every 5000 for a bit less than that, and forget the oil analysis if I felt it was unnecessary...



So far, if we remove the Peterbuilts, John Derre, Navistar, Detriot Diesel and various airplane and large over-the-road fleet haulers, *I* still don't see a very high percentage of problems or failures found thru oil analysis that directlt affect the owners of *Cummins* owners THIS thread is really about!



Do it for peace of mind, and that one-in- a-million potential failure - OK, but unless lots more supporting info surfaces here, I so far see it as a little frivelous AS LONG AS proper oil changes and decent maintenance is performed.



Will *I* do it? Probably, at least a few more times, until my engine is fully broken in and analysis stabilizes...

 

[catoiler]

Don't forget to mark down on the sample how much replacment oil you put in.

 

[amsoilman]

Gary,

For your information in the 105,000 miles before I changed the oil in my 94 CTD, my records show I changed both the "Full flow and the By-pass" elements a total of 3 times, and added 14 qts. of makeup oil. Keep in mind I also had 10 oil analysis fee's, which at the time cost me $10. 50 each. So I could say in 105,000 miles I had completely "changed out" my oil.



Wayne

Amsoilman