Is there a recomended amount of hours before an oilchange? With my old 12v I was doing them every 200 hours. But because my new truck is stock, and the new engine is "supposed" to go longer between oilchanges I was wondering what is recomended. I do alot of slow driving around like an old granny, and quite a bit of idling. So as of right now I have 6,240 miles on my truck and have 325 hours. Works out to a whopping average of 19. 2 mph. Anyways I have already changed the oil once at 223 hours. Dealership wants to change my oil every 5,000 km's (3100 miles) even when the service guide calls for every 12,000 km's (7740 miles). I figure going by the hour will get me between these 2 extremes, which is what I need with the type of driving I do for my job. Don't wan't to waste money doing it to often and going by milage may be too long on the oil. Only doing this to keep warranty intact. I was thinking along the lines of 300 hours... ... ...
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Oil change by the hour.
- Thread starter Swamp Donkey
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For some applications hourly oil changes make a great deal of sense. For example, engines run continously or semi-continously at a fairly constant load and RPM. such as gen-sets or marine engines.
For the way we most of us drive we would be better off with the time/mileage method.
Folks pulling loads commercially might be the exception. Keep in mind I'm thinking oil changes, not other maintenance needs which might require a different schedule.
You point out that you do a lot of slow driving and idling. Extensive idling is one of the worst things you can do for your engine. In this case, an hour/time interval probably makes sense because you want to change the oil more often. Two hundred hours would probably be the longest I'd suggest for that kind of operation, maybe even more often.
For the way we most of us drive we would be better off with the time/mileage method.
Folks pulling loads commercially might be the exception. Keep in mind I'm thinking oil changes, not other maintenance needs which might require a different schedule.
You point out that you do a lot of slow driving and idling. Extensive idling is one of the worst things you can do for your engine. In this case, an hour/time interval probably makes sense because you want to change the oil more often. Two hundred hours would probably be the longest I'd suggest for that kind of operation, maybe even more often.
200 hours eh. I guess I can still live with that. Just thought I might be able to drag it out a little longer. Guess an oil analysis or two would not hurt either. The reason for all the idle time is I am in and out af my truck at least 25 times a day for 8-10 hours per day and it is cold out so I need a warm spot to go. Drive very slowly for 10 minutes... ..... get out and check some stuff for 10 minutes. -25c today so shutting off the engine is "bad" in my book! LOL
A million miles is not a high priority for me, just going to run this truck for a couple of years, and get another one. I do want to keep my maintenance up on it, not only because downtime cost money, but 100,000 mile warranty is an item that I don't want any issues of it being voided for any reason.
A million miles is not a high priority for me, just going to run this truck for a couple of years, and get another one. I do want to keep my maintenance up on it, not only because downtime cost money, but 100,000 mile warranty is an item that I don't want any issues of it being voided for any reason.
I understand wanting a warm place. Best not shut off the truck, it might not start!
Still, frequent oil changes, or at least oil analysis is a good idea. For reasons discussed on another thread, oil analysis does not tell the whole story. Not operating often enough (not your problem!) or insufficiently warm oil to rid the oil of harmful moisture and acid contaminates can hurt the engine.
I wonder if your oil temps are getting warm enough in -25 OAT and short slow trips?
Changing oil freuqently can be cheap insurance, especially in unusual operating environments like yours. No offense, I'm sure -25 is normal in Fort Saint John, just not in Mexico where these trucks are made. :-laf
Still, frequent oil changes, or at least oil analysis is a good idea. For reasons discussed on another thread, oil analysis does not tell the whole story. Not operating often enough (not your problem!) or insufficiently warm oil to rid the oil of harmful moisture and acid contaminates can hurt the engine.
I wonder if your oil temps are getting warm enough in -25 OAT and short slow trips?
Changing oil freuqently can be cheap insurance, especially in unusual operating environments like yours. No offense, I'm sure -25 is normal in Fort Saint John, just not in Mexico where these trucks are made. :-laf
amsoilman
Staff Alumni
Swamp Donkey said:
Do oil analysis, then you will know for sure!
I just met a man in Idaho who has gone as long as 3,000 hrs. using this procedure. The engine was in a tracktor, but he was using a well known synthetic oil. I'm sure you will get more hrs. out of your oil, if you do an oil analysis... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... that is the VERY BEST way to know..... PERIOD!
Wayne
amsoilman
Wayne,
I believe that oil analysis has it's place, particularly those that wish to extend drain intervals or have mission critical engines like those on aircraft.
Spectrographic analysis of wear metals is a very useful took for trying to foresee problems ahead. In conjuction with other specific analysis it may tell you the condition of the additive package in the oil. Frankly, we don't go that far with our oil analysis but instead stick to the wear metals and analysis of the filter media.
I am primarily talking aircraft piston engines in this regard. Naturally, we want early warning if an engine component is showing signs of failure. Oil analysis will often help with this diagnosis, but sometimes the failure is so dramatic, like a cam lobe going away that it barely shows up on the spectrographic analysis which is looking at micron size stuff, and fails to pick up the big stuff caught in the filter. So for engines used in critical service filter analysis looking for the bigger media is important. Since we are talking trucks here, if a cam goes the worse thing that happens is that we drift off to the side of the road. No big deal.
Back to regular oil analysis. It is only useful when done consistantly and the analysis is performed by the same lab. If you send the same sample to two different labs you will get very different values of wear metals. It is the nature of the equipment they use. Primarily, we are looking at trend information rather than the absolute value of the wear metals. One or two analysis tells very little in reality, it takes three or four to get a good base line of what your engines normal numbers are. From there you look for changes in the values that may indicate which components may be suffering accelerated wear. We really don't want to get to the point where we see accelerated wear, so that is why we do regular maintenance.
I'm not terribly familiar with oil analysis that goes beyond wear metals, and I wonder if you could enlighten me on what they look for and how you determine when your oil has reached it's useful life. I assume that you are looking at the acidity of the oil, but I'm sure it must be more comprehensive than that. Please explain, or direct me to a link which explains this process.
Thanks
Jim
I believe that oil analysis has it's place, particularly those that wish to extend drain intervals or have mission critical engines like those on aircraft.
Spectrographic analysis of wear metals is a very useful took for trying to foresee problems ahead. In conjuction with other specific analysis it may tell you the condition of the additive package in the oil. Frankly, we don't go that far with our oil analysis but instead stick to the wear metals and analysis of the filter media.
I am primarily talking aircraft piston engines in this regard. Naturally, we want early warning if an engine component is showing signs of failure. Oil analysis will often help with this diagnosis, but sometimes the failure is so dramatic, like a cam lobe going away that it barely shows up on the spectrographic analysis which is looking at micron size stuff, and fails to pick up the big stuff caught in the filter. So for engines used in critical service filter analysis looking for the bigger media is important. Since we are talking trucks here, if a cam goes the worse thing that happens is that we drift off to the side of the road. No big deal.
Back to regular oil analysis. It is only useful when done consistantly and the analysis is performed by the same lab. If you send the same sample to two different labs you will get very different values of wear metals. It is the nature of the equipment they use. Primarily, we are looking at trend information rather than the absolute value of the wear metals. One or two analysis tells very little in reality, it takes three or four to get a good base line of what your engines normal numbers are. From there you look for changes in the values that may indicate which components may be suffering accelerated wear. We really don't want to get to the point where we see accelerated wear, so that is why we do regular maintenance.
I'm not terribly familiar with oil analysis that goes beyond wear metals, and I wonder if you could enlighten me on what they look for and how you determine when your oil has reached it's useful life. I assume that you are looking at the acidity of the oil, but I'm sure it must be more comprehensive than that. Please explain, or direct me to a link which explains this process.
Thanks
Jim
amsoilman
Staff Alumni
Jim,
I have to agree with you regarding "oil analysis haveing its place", and the fact that one has to look at the real value of the data by determining trends rather than in the accuracy of any one individual test.
Regarding oil analysis, in general there are two different classes of analytical tests, those that measure the physical properties of the oil, and those that measure the level of contamination.
Physical properties are a good indication of the condition of the oil, and are often used to determine oil drain intervals. Some of the most common physical property tests are: viscosity, total acid number (TAN) and total base number (TBN), as you have mentioned.
To explain a bit more regarding the physical properties of oil analysis, look at the Viscosity, since it is one of the most important Physical properties of a lubricant.
Kinematic Viscosity (ASTM D-445) determined at 40 Deg. C and/or 100 Deg. C is a measure of the flow rate of an oil in relation to time, and is expressed in centistokes (cSt) 1 square mm/1 second = 1 cSt. This data is used to assign an SAE grade to an oil. Example: 40 grade oil has to fall between 12. 50 cSt @100 C minimum, to 16. 29 cSt @ 100 C maximum. Normally a 25% increase in viscosity is a warning that the oil is reaching the end of its useful life.
Now look at some other tests that will determine if the used engine oil is suitable for continued use.
TAN (ASTM D974) determines the level of acidity by mixing in an indicator solution and then adding potassium hydroxide (KOH) until the solution changes color. The acidity is expressed as the milligrams of KOH required to neutralize a gram of oil (mgKOH/g). TBN (ASTM D2896) determines the level of alkalinity in an oil, which indicates the ability of the oil to continue to neutralize corrosive acids. The test measures the change in electrical conductivity. A higher TBN oil is considered better in neutralizing acids than a lower TBN oil. It is best to measure the change in TBN from new oil of the same type and brand you are using. The TBN of engine oil may be obtained from data sheets, or measured by analyzing a sample of new oil. Some manufacturers, such as Amsoil put the TBN number on the labels. A 50% reduction in TBN is a warning that the additives are becoming depleted and an oil change should be considered.
Common contamination tests include: water content, fuel dilution, and dirt ingestion and wear metals analysis. Water contamination can usually be detected visually, but a water content test (ASTM D1744)) is sometimes used as well. Fuel dilution is serious in that it can significantly reduce oil viscosity and increase engine wear. Since most engine oils gradually increase in viscosity over their useful life, a noticeable reduction in viscosity is a strong indication of fuel dilution.
And then there are the "wear metals" that you are most familiar with.
Wear metals are metals used in the manufacture of the engine that will wear in normal use, such as Iron (Fe), Chromium (Cr), Lead (Pb), Copper (Cu), Tin (Sn), Aluminum (Al), Nickel (Ni), Silver (Ag). Analysis of the types and levels of wear metals can be used to determine which engine components are wearing and if the level of wear is becoming critical. Most tests measure wear metal levels spectrographically. The most common is emission spectroscopy. In this procedure a small oil sample is burned in a high temperature flame, and the equipment detects different levels of light emitted. The equipment is calibrated to simultaneously measure the emitted light from as many as 18 different wear metals and contaminants.
Another wear metal test called the atomic absorption analysis will provide the greatest level of accuracy for each element examined, but is more costly as well as time consuming as it requires one pass through the machine for each element tested.
Either of these two wear metal tests are expressed in (PPM) Parts Per Million by weight.
Then there is dirt.
Dirt is probably the most common engine oil contaminent, and high levels can lead to excessive engine wear. The most effective way to detect dust or dirt contamination is to monitor silicon levels by spectrochemical analysis, though some tests can indicate total solids by centrifugal separation or filtering through a fine membrane filter. Contamination levels will vary according to the type of engine and the application, with off-highway equipment often having the highest levels. Again, it is important to measure the change in silicon or solids levels, rather than look at any individual analysis.
Additive levels may also be measured with spectrographic metals analysis. Normal metals analysis will detect the levels of zinc, phosphorous, calcium and barium, which are common elements in most additive packages. A 50% reduction in parts-per-million of these elements indicates the oil should be changed.
And there are more data that can be looked at, such as Fuel Dilution, water, soot, and solids, but these will most likely effect TBN, Viscosity, and wear metals.
All of the above mentioned tests in my mind would then determine *IF* the oil should be changed.
You can go to www.noria.com or www.analystsinc.com for some good informatoin regarding oil analysis.
Hope this helps,
Wayne
amsoilman
I have to agree with you regarding "oil analysis haveing its place", and the fact that one has to look at the real value of the data by determining trends rather than in the accuracy of any one individual test.
Regarding oil analysis, in general there are two different classes of analytical tests, those that measure the physical properties of the oil, and those that measure the level of contamination.
Physical properties are a good indication of the condition of the oil, and are often used to determine oil drain intervals. Some of the most common physical property tests are: viscosity, total acid number (TAN) and total base number (TBN), as you have mentioned.
To explain a bit more regarding the physical properties of oil analysis, look at the Viscosity, since it is one of the most important Physical properties of a lubricant.
Kinematic Viscosity (ASTM D-445) determined at 40 Deg. C and/or 100 Deg. C is a measure of the flow rate of an oil in relation to time, and is expressed in centistokes (cSt) 1 square mm/1 second = 1 cSt. This data is used to assign an SAE grade to an oil. Example: 40 grade oil has to fall between 12. 50 cSt @100 C minimum, to 16. 29 cSt @ 100 C maximum. Normally a 25% increase in viscosity is a warning that the oil is reaching the end of its useful life.
Now look at some other tests that will determine if the used engine oil is suitable for continued use.
TAN (ASTM D974) determines the level of acidity by mixing in an indicator solution and then adding potassium hydroxide (KOH) until the solution changes color. The acidity is expressed as the milligrams of KOH required to neutralize a gram of oil (mgKOH/g). TBN (ASTM D2896) determines the level of alkalinity in an oil, which indicates the ability of the oil to continue to neutralize corrosive acids. The test measures the change in electrical conductivity. A higher TBN oil is considered better in neutralizing acids than a lower TBN oil. It is best to measure the change in TBN from new oil of the same type and brand you are using. The TBN of engine oil may be obtained from data sheets, or measured by analyzing a sample of new oil. Some manufacturers, such as Amsoil put the TBN number on the labels. A 50% reduction in TBN is a warning that the additives are becoming depleted and an oil change should be considered.
Common contamination tests include: water content, fuel dilution, and dirt ingestion and wear metals analysis. Water contamination can usually be detected visually, but a water content test (ASTM D1744)) is sometimes used as well. Fuel dilution is serious in that it can significantly reduce oil viscosity and increase engine wear. Since most engine oils gradually increase in viscosity over their useful life, a noticeable reduction in viscosity is a strong indication of fuel dilution.
And then there are the "wear metals" that you are most familiar with.
Wear metals are metals used in the manufacture of the engine that will wear in normal use, such as Iron (Fe), Chromium (Cr), Lead (Pb), Copper (Cu), Tin (Sn), Aluminum (Al), Nickel (Ni), Silver (Ag). Analysis of the types and levels of wear metals can be used to determine which engine components are wearing and if the level of wear is becoming critical. Most tests measure wear metal levels spectrographically. The most common is emission spectroscopy. In this procedure a small oil sample is burned in a high temperature flame, and the equipment detects different levels of light emitted. The equipment is calibrated to simultaneously measure the emitted light from as many as 18 different wear metals and contaminants.
Another wear metal test called the atomic absorption analysis will provide the greatest level of accuracy for each element examined, but is more costly as well as time consuming as it requires one pass through the machine for each element tested.
Either of these two wear metal tests are expressed in (PPM) Parts Per Million by weight.
Then there is dirt.
Dirt is probably the most common engine oil contaminent, and high levels can lead to excessive engine wear. The most effective way to detect dust or dirt contamination is to monitor silicon levels by spectrochemical analysis, though some tests can indicate total solids by centrifugal separation or filtering through a fine membrane filter. Contamination levels will vary according to the type of engine and the application, with off-highway equipment often having the highest levels. Again, it is important to measure the change in silicon or solids levels, rather than look at any individual analysis.
Additive levels may also be measured with spectrographic metals analysis. Normal metals analysis will detect the levels of zinc, phosphorous, calcium and barium, which are common elements in most additive packages. A 50% reduction in parts-per-million of these elements indicates the oil should be changed.
And there are more data that can be looked at, such as Fuel Dilution, water, soot, and solids, but these will most likely effect TBN, Viscosity, and wear metals.
All of the above mentioned tests in my mind would then determine *IF* the oil should be changed.
You can go to www.noria.com or www.analystsinc.com for some good informatoin regarding oil analysis.
Hope this helps,
Wayne
amsoilman
Last edited:
Had enough of the anti idle police yet Swamp Donkey. It pretty black and white thet they don't know what cold is. All the big engine builders have been telling us for years do not idle. I run long haul and 99% of the rigs idle as much as 20 yrs ago. My little 5. 9 has a remote start that will run for 45 min @ a time and most of the time in the am the truck will quit before I get too it. It burns 0 oil,no bent pushrods no washdown,no fuel smell in engine oil.
The oil chang interval I use is the 150hr mark using xd3 0/40 in the winter.
The oil chang interval I use is the 150hr mark using xd3 0/40 in the winter.
Yes, extended idling is supposed to be hard on diesels, but when you live in a pickup you need heat in the winter and cooling in the summer. I know guys with 3/4 mil on their pickups. . . just now starting to have trouble with them. One guy has idled his truck when not driving almost continuously for half million miles. I'm looking to have an ESPAR installed, been trying for a couple years, maybe I'll make it Monday. Idling is getting expensive anymore.
Cheers,
Steve J
Cheers,
Steve J
OTRPU,
I know what you are saying. I ran my 12v the same way I am running this one with no ill effects on the engine. In fact the 6 years I had the 98 12v, the engine has never ever given me one bit of trouble. Nothing, not a relay, solenoid. The truck now has 260,000 km's on it. Just hoping I could stretch the oil changes out just a little. Most of the reason why I am looking into this is because the dealer irritated me by telling me I should change my oil 2x as often. Guess they were kinda right. I'll never admit!
I know what you are saying. I ran my 12v the same way I am running this one with no ill effects on the engine. In fact the 6 years I had the 98 12v, the engine has never ever given me one bit of trouble. Nothing, not a relay, solenoid. The truck now has 260,000 km's on it. Just hoping I could stretch the oil changes out just a little. Most of the reason why I am looking into this is because the dealer irritated me by telling me I should change my oil 2x as often. Guess they were kinda right. I'll never admit!
The hourly interval for a QSB from cummins "construction" page: Construction QSB
Maintenance Intervals.
"QSB engines are designed to run up to 250 hours/6 months for turbocharged engines and 500 hours/6 months for charge air cooled engines between scheduled maintenance stops. "
The maintenence interval for a "urban bus & shuttle" page: Urban bus & shuttle
"The ISB is designed for simple, easy maintenance every time, with a single spin-on fuel filter with optional heater and water-in-fuel sensor. 6,000-mile (9,600 km) change intervals at an average vehicle speed of 10-15 mph"
I would think the bus scedule is similar to your use, 6000 miles@ 12 mph is 500 hrs on the bus.
You are definately charge cooled so that gives you 500 hrs in construction.
Looks to me like Cummins thinks 500 hrs is OK. Idling is hard on things but 250 to 350 should be fine.
Jared
Maintenance Intervals.
"QSB engines are designed to run up to 250 hours/6 months for turbocharged engines and 500 hours/6 months for charge air cooled engines between scheduled maintenance stops. "
The maintenence interval for a "urban bus & shuttle" page: Urban bus & shuttle
"The ISB is designed for simple, easy maintenance every time, with a single spin-on fuel filter with optional heater and water-in-fuel sensor. 6,000-mile (9,600 km) change intervals at an average vehicle speed of 10-15 mph"
I would think the bus scedule is similar to your use, 6000 miles@ 12 mph is 500 hrs on the bus.
You are definately charge cooled so that gives you 500 hrs in construction.
Looks to me like Cummins thinks 500 hrs is OK. Idling is hard on things but 250 to 350 should be fine.
Jared
Last edited by a moderator:
Thoughts.
FWIW... we run JD tractors in an agriculture environment. John Deere recommends oil and filter changes every 100 hours and we stick pretty close to this (over by a few most times). We have never had a oil related failure or problem on any of the engines. In reality, we could probably stretch it to 200 hours and never have a problem, but it is cheap insurance.
I am not saying this is what you should do, just what we do for different equipment in a different environment. We have one JD that runs about 8 hours a day almost 7 days a week with over 6800 hours on it and no problems. This machine is at the extreme of both ends: Full throttle under full load for hours and no load idling for hours.
My '05 idles quite a bit when my daughter is with me and I am working on the ranch (feeding cattle, checking cattle / fences, etc). All my other CTDs have as well. I still have the '92 with over 240,000 miles on it. Dad is running my '99 now with over 178,000 miles on it, and my '05 that I took delivery of on 10/13 has over 5800 miles on it already. On all of these CTD's, I stick with 3,000 - 4,000 mile oil and filter change intervals and use Mobil Delvac 1300 15w/40 dino. Never a problem.
My thought is that if you are getting around 3000 miles in 200 hours, change it and probably suggest doing a change at 200 hours anyway. For your application, I think regular oil analysis is in order and use it as a guide.
JMO and it means less than most think. :-laf
FWIW... we run JD tractors in an agriculture environment. John Deere recommends oil and filter changes every 100 hours and we stick pretty close to this (over by a few most times). We have never had a oil related failure or problem on any of the engines. In reality, we could probably stretch it to 200 hours and never have a problem, but it is cheap insurance.
I am not saying this is what you should do, just what we do for different equipment in a different environment. We have one JD that runs about 8 hours a day almost 7 days a week with over 6800 hours on it and no problems. This machine is at the extreme of both ends: Full throttle under full load for hours and no load idling for hours.
My '05 idles quite a bit when my daughter is with me and I am working on the ranch (feeding cattle, checking cattle / fences, etc). All my other CTDs have as well. I still have the '92 with over 240,000 miles on it. Dad is running my '99 now with over 178,000 miles on it, and my '05 that I took delivery of on 10/13 has over 5800 miles on it already. On all of these CTD's, I stick with 3,000 - 4,000 mile oil and filter change intervals and use Mobil Delvac 1300 15w/40 dino. Never a problem.
My thought is that if you are getting around 3000 miles in 200 hours, change it and probably suggest doing a change at 200 hours anyway. For your application, I think regular oil analysis is in order and use it as a guide.
JMO and it means less than most think. :-laf
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