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Oil filter revisited
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rbattelle
TDR MEMBER
Tim said:
I used to work in an automotive parts warehouse (supplied parts to a group of nationwide parts stores). When I started there, Fram was our "main" filter line. After a couple years, we ditched the Fram and switched to Wix. We were told by management that the Wix are far superior to Fram (and I generally concur).
Since I got my parts at huge discounts as an employee, I also switched to Wix. At the time, I drove only gassers. One day I changed the filter on my 1985 Bronco II (part No. 51515). On startup, the filter seal blew out, spraying new oil all over the place. Okay, no big deal... it was a fluke.
About a year later, I had upgraded to a Mazda B4000 (Ranger), which also required No. 51515 (equivalent to the famous (infamous?) Fram PH8A). One day I changed the filter on that truck and guess what... seal blew out, spraying new oil all over the place.
That was the last time I ever bought a Wix filter.
Just my experience.
-Ryan
My trucks have been running Wix/Napa filters for years. I have 50 oil changes on my '99 F350 7. 3, 30 changes on the '03 CTD's and almost 30 on the two duramax's I used to have. That figures out to well over 100 Wix filters on five different turbo diesel trucks in just the last 6 years. I also use them on most of my gassers, two Mercedes, and a Porsche. I have never had a single problem with them. They meet or exceed the manufacturers specs even though they may not have paid for the priviliage of getting on someones "list". I've seen some posturing, and even a couple decent points about using the Mopar or Fleetgaurds but... . I also have no reason to change based on my experience, which by any measure is fairly extensive.
And that is just what a good marketing campaign would want you to do!
Filters and oil, The two items we get to choose. And the two items that get the most debate. Why? Because people associate there feelings with what they run. If they feel fortunate and lucky to have a nice truck like the Dodge Cummins, they feel they should protect it with the best. So they purchase with there hart and not with there head. Nothing wrong with that at all, we do the same with many other purchases we make. The deception is that many think price means quality or better then another brand. In some instances it might, but in many it does not. Oil, is oil. One brand of conventional oil to me is the same as another brand of conventional oil, the only difference is the price. Which is greatly influenced by the rate of advertisement. Synthetic oils are a little different, since the new regulations on synthetic vs semi-synthetic oil, there is a difference between oils brands. Not in the oil itself, 100% synthetic oil is 100% synthetic oil and the same. But one has to be very careful now days because oil makers are allowed to sell oil labeled as 100% synthetic, when in fact it can be deluded by 30%. And semi-synthetic oil is anything over 30% . Mobile-1 use to be a very good oil, I used it for years and liked it's performance, but they switched several years ago and started using the deluded oil. Just recently they released a better Mobile-1 which is suppose to be pure synthetic, I can not recall the name but it is there premium oil. The biggest problems are the best known oil brands, Penzoil, Valvoline, Quaker State and so forth. They depend on the brand name to sell the products. In my opinion the best synthetic oils are Red Line and Amsoil, they are the only true 100% synthetic oils I know of. The Mobile-1 premium oil would also be great, as long as they keep it true.
Filters How is anyone suppose to know which filters is really the best? Several years ago the TDR ran an article were they tested a group of oil filters, it was about 6-7 different makes. Other then that, what is anyone bases for choosing one over the other? Several years ago, I had a Toyota with an double overhead can engine that kept eating the chain tensioners. This motor had several hydraulic tensioners that used the engine oil to automatically take-up the slack in the chain drive that turned the cams and intermediate shaft. I had purchased the car used, and was using it to commute to college (long time ago). I replaced the tensioners the first time after about 4 months, and the second time after about 8 months. Each time I replaced every ting, both chains, all four sprockets, and the tensioners and the guides. While picking up my parts for the third rebuild, one of the Toyota mechanics ask me what brand oil filter was I using? I replied I was using Valvoline, what my dad had always used. He told me my problem was the filter, the Toyota Factory filter has a anti-drain back valve that keeps the filter full of oil when the engine is shut-off. This small feature keeps the oil in the filter so when you start the engine, there is not a delay in the oil pressure system, which allows the tensioners to be tight at start-up. What was happening with the Valvoline filter, was I did not have the anti-drain back valve, so the tensioners did not get the oil pressure right away, and the chain would beat the heck out of them till the pressure built up. That small delay meant the difference between the system working or not working. Now after the filter switch, that very motor lived for almost another 200,000 miles without a single problem. How could Valvoline list a filter to fit a make and model automobile, when they did not include the very important internal valve that the original manufacturer had? I'm not sure either, but that experience stayed with me for years, and I only bought OEM filters for a very long time. Now days, we have many choices to choose from, and the computer allows us to contact the manufacturers and ask questions. Which is just what I do, if I have a question I contact them directly. And I would recommend that others do the same. Way to often people ask important questions on the TDR and rely on second hand information at best for the answers. Not that people on the TDR do not know what they are talking about, they do most of the time. Their hands on experience makes much of their knowledge first rate, but specific questions about specific items are best answered by the manufacturer.
Oil filters are always in the spot light, yet air filters are for the most part over looked, why? I think it is because the air filter is exposed and easy to see. The oil filter is encased in a metal housing and sort of mysterious, how knows whats really in their? What about Fuel filters, and transmission oil filters, these guys don't seem to spark the debate that the engine oil filters do? I am not sure what drives the heated dates but they are interesting and fun. For the record, I use a dual by-pass engine oil filter system. I use Amsoil and fleet guard oil filters and Amsoil fluids. I buy Amsoil because I believe it to be one of the best synthetic oil's available, with Red-line at it's side. I use it in all the vehicles, I don't play favorites, and I like the easy with witch it can be purchased. Just go on-line and it's delivered to your door the next day. I would have no problem using a relatively unknown filter as long as I was able to be assured it meets or exceeds factory OEM standards.
Filters and oil, The two items we get to choose. And the two items that get the most debate. Why? Because people associate there feelings with what they run. If they feel fortunate and lucky to have a nice truck like the Dodge Cummins, they feel they should protect it with the best. So they purchase with there hart and not with there head. Nothing wrong with that at all, we do the same with many other purchases we make. The deception is that many think price means quality or better then another brand. In some instances it might, but in many it does not. Oil, is oil. One brand of conventional oil to me is the same as another brand of conventional oil, the only difference is the price. Which is greatly influenced by the rate of advertisement. Synthetic oils are a little different, since the new regulations on synthetic vs semi-synthetic oil, there is a difference between oils brands. Not in the oil itself, 100% synthetic oil is 100% synthetic oil and the same. But one has to be very careful now days because oil makers are allowed to sell oil labeled as 100% synthetic, when in fact it can be deluded by 30%. And semi-synthetic oil is anything over 30% . Mobile-1 use to be a very good oil, I used it for years and liked it's performance, but they switched several years ago and started using the deluded oil. Just recently they released a better Mobile-1 which is suppose to be pure synthetic, I can not recall the name but it is there premium oil. The biggest problems are the best known oil brands, Penzoil, Valvoline, Quaker State and so forth. They depend on the brand name to sell the products. In my opinion the best synthetic oils are Red Line and Amsoil, they are the only true 100% synthetic oils I know of. The Mobile-1 premium oil would also be great, as long as they keep it true.
Filters How is anyone suppose to know which filters is really the best? Several years ago the TDR ran an article were they tested a group of oil filters, it was about 6-7 different makes. Other then that, what is anyone bases for choosing one over the other? Several years ago, I had a Toyota with an double overhead can engine that kept eating the chain tensioners. This motor had several hydraulic tensioners that used the engine oil to automatically take-up the slack in the chain drive that turned the cams and intermediate shaft. I had purchased the car used, and was using it to commute to college (long time ago). I replaced the tensioners the first time after about 4 months, and the second time after about 8 months. Each time I replaced every ting, both chains, all four sprockets, and the tensioners and the guides. While picking up my parts for the third rebuild, one of the Toyota mechanics ask me what brand oil filter was I using? I replied I was using Valvoline, what my dad had always used. He told me my problem was the filter, the Toyota Factory filter has a anti-drain back valve that keeps the filter full of oil when the engine is shut-off. This small feature keeps the oil in the filter so when you start the engine, there is not a delay in the oil pressure system, which allows the tensioners to be tight at start-up. What was happening with the Valvoline filter, was I did not have the anti-drain back valve, so the tensioners did not get the oil pressure right away, and the chain would beat the heck out of them till the pressure built up. That small delay meant the difference between the system working or not working. Now after the filter switch, that very motor lived for almost another 200,000 miles without a single problem. How could Valvoline list a filter to fit a make and model automobile, when they did not include the very important internal valve that the original manufacturer had? I'm not sure either, but that experience stayed with me for years, and I only bought OEM filters for a very long time. Now days, we have many choices to choose from, and the computer allows us to contact the manufacturers and ask questions. Which is just what I do, if I have a question I contact them directly. And I would recommend that others do the same. Way to often people ask important questions on the TDR and rely on second hand information at best for the answers. Not that people on the TDR do not know what they are talking about, they do most of the time. Their hands on experience makes much of their knowledge first rate, but specific questions about specific items are best answered by the manufacturer.
Oil filters are always in the spot light, yet air filters are for the most part over looked, why? I think it is because the air filter is exposed and easy to see. The oil filter is encased in a metal housing and sort of mysterious, how knows whats really in their? What about Fuel filters, and transmission oil filters, these guys don't seem to spark the debate that the engine oil filters do? I am not sure what drives the heated dates but they are interesting and fun. For the record, I use a dual by-pass engine oil filter system. I use Amsoil and fleet guard oil filters and Amsoil fluids. I buy Amsoil because I believe it to be one of the best synthetic oil's available, with Red-line at it's side. I use it in all the vehicles, I don't play favorites, and I like the easy with witch it can be purchased. Just go on-line and it's delivered to your door the next day. I would have no problem using a relatively unknown filter as long as I was able to be assured it meets or exceeds factory OEM standards.
It has nothing to do with emotions, marketing campaigns or anything else. Fleetguard is a division of Cummins. By using the recommended Fleetguard Stratapore filter,
1. It obviously satisfies Cummins' requirements for this engine, as well as Mopar's.
2. It goes a long way in the minds of Cummins and DaimlerChrysler to remove inadequate lube oil filtration from the list of potential root causes should I ever have an engine problem or failure that involves the lube oil system.
Perfectly rational to me. YMMV.....
Rusty
1. It obviously satisfies Cummins' requirements for this engine, as well as Mopar's.
2. It goes a long way in the minds of Cummins and DaimlerChrysler to remove inadequate lube oil filtration from the list of potential root causes should I ever have an engine problem or failure that involves the lube oil system.
Perfectly rational to me. YMMV.....
Rusty
"experience"
I think emotions play a part in it from the stand point that it is one variable that we can control. We (consumer) don't gap the rings, cut the caps, torque the bolts, ect. So for that warm fuzzy feeling we buy the best for the "blood" of our truck (lymph?). This is why we get such a response in these threads.
20+ years ago some co-horts and I cut open a dozen or so filters to see if there was a difference. Lo and behold, what we discovered then, I believe is true today. Most were the tall mopar variety. We had Fram, Baldwin, Wix, NAPA, NAPA gold, STP, and some manufacturerss, well you get the idea. For a bunch of drunks we were pretty analytical. We counted pleats, stretched and measure media, examined how the cans and bypass valves were made. Hell, I didn't even know a filter had a by-pass!
There was a big difference between brands. The car manufacturers were top notch. The maufacturers (MoPar, GM and Honda) were some of the best made, by far. Most off brand's innards were embossed with Wix or Purolator. Some were just junk, krapp. The good were real good. The bad were, real cheesy. One filter brand that everyone there used was a big disappointment, but not as bad a certain store brand. Also the same brand will vary by application
I never opened a Fleetguard. I Didn't know they were owned by cummings. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wix or Purolator embossed on the canister inside.
My point is that there is a big difference between oil filters. It's the insides that count.
If you think your saving a couple bucks, you might be cheating your self some where else.
If you use "approved" Fleetguard, MoPar, Baldwin, and Wix you cannot go wrong.
If you buy something else that fits it's your truck, roll the dice.
Fleetguard and Baldwin are sold at the Cummins parts counter.
Give us some hard data. Someone needs to take a bandsaw to a some ISB filters from a few different brands.
RustyJC said:
I think emotions play a part in it from the stand point that it is one variable that we can control. We (consumer) don't gap the rings, cut the caps, torque the bolts, ect. So for that warm fuzzy feeling we buy the best for the "blood" of our truck (lymph?). This is why we get such a response in these threads.
20+ years ago some co-horts and I cut open a dozen or so filters to see if there was a difference. Lo and behold, what we discovered then, I believe is true today. Most were the tall mopar variety. We had Fram, Baldwin, Wix, NAPA, NAPA gold, STP, and some manufacturerss, well you get the idea. For a bunch of drunks we were pretty analytical. We counted pleats, stretched and measure media, examined how the cans and bypass valves were made. Hell, I didn't even know a filter had a by-pass!
There was a big difference between brands. The car manufacturers were top notch. The maufacturers (MoPar, GM and Honda) were some of the best made, by far. Most off brand's innards were embossed with Wix or Purolator. Some were just junk, krapp. The good were real good. The bad were, real cheesy. One filter brand that everyone there used was a big disappointment, but not as bad a certain store brand. Also the same brand will vary by application
I never opened a Fleetguard. I Didn't know they were owned by cummings. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wix or Purolator embossed on the canister inside.
My point is that there is a big difference between oil filters. It's the insides that count.
If you think your saving a couple bucks, you might be cheating your self some where else.
If you use "approved" Fleetguard, MoPar, Baldwin, and Wix you cannot go wrong.
If you buy something else that fits it's your truck, roll the dice.
Fleetguard and Baldwin are sold at the Cummins parts counter.
Give us some hard data. Someone needs to take a bandsaw to a some ISB filters from a few different brands.
Last edited:
CPG said:
No argument, just healthy, spirited dialog.
I didn't know cummins owned fleetguard or the ISB flows 17 GPM. If the latter is true, that is smoking for an oil pump and reason enough to use the higher grade. Now I'm educated.
And most seem to agree that you should not run generic maintenance items in your quality machine.
The irony is that the ISB would probably go 300k if you never changed the filter and just kept the oil topped off. (in our application,stock form)
And for the record, Fleetguard Strat (cheap enough @ Geno's), RP synthetic, and change the fuel filter every oil change.
Next thread I have some Qs about sampling, flame out
y-knot said:And that is just what a good marketing campaign would want you to do!
Oil, is oil. One brand of conventional oil to me is the same as another brand of conventional oil, the only difference is the price. Which is greatly influenced by the rate of advertisement. Synthetic oils are a little different, since the new regulations on synthetic vs semi-synthetic oil, there is a difference between oils brands. Not in the oil itself, 100% synthetic oil is 100% synthetic oil and the same. But one has to be very careful now days because oil makers are allowed to sell oil labeled as 100% synthetic, when in fact it can be deluded by 30%. And semi-synthetic oil is anything over 30% . Mobile-1 use to be a very good oil, I used it for years and liked it's performance, but they switched several years ago and started using the deluded oil. Just recently they released a better Mobile-1 which is suppose to be pure synthetic, I can not recall the name but it is there premium oil. The biggest problems are the best known oil brands, Penzoil, Valvoline, Quaker State and so forth. They depend on the brand name to sell the products. In my opinion the best synthetic oils are Red Line and Amsoil, they are the only true 100% synthetic oils I know of. The Mobile-1 premium oil would also be great, as long as they keep it true.
Becarefull here: Oil is not Oil... .
Let's just put the truth back to his statements on Semi-Synthetic.
A base oil can be only one of the five categories occording to the American Petroleum Institute (API).
Group I Viscosity Index < 90 Sulfur < . 03 Saturates < 90
Gorp II VI > 90 < 120 Sulfur < . 03 Saturates > 90
Group III VI >120 Sulfur < . 03 Saturates >90
Group IV PAO (Poly Alpha Olaphin) Synthetic Hydro Carbon Starts its life as dino
Group V All others - for engine oils we use an ester with the PAO
Based on this information you can have a blend of base oils and still be a "true" synthetic. As a matter of fact both of the brands he mentioned use a blend. You see a PAO does not like additives and therefore must have a carrier hence, we use ester Group V to carry the additives and then Solulblize into the PAO. This is at about 15- 20 % for a CI-4+ oil. Finished Lube cost > $20 per gallon.
You can have a full synthetic of the Group III variety. "This is the one he does not like" :-{} . Although it has a higher pour point than PAO it has the high temperature characteristics of a PAO and makes a great engine oil. It carries the additives with little help. The additives are made with Group I as the carrier. 15 -20% additive / cost $12-15 per gallon.
Then you can have a semi-synthetic- this just means you need to wave the magic wand over the product. Most will contain 30% of a synthetic Group III or Group IV. With the balance Group I and II. Still makes a great product in a balanced formulation. 15- 20% additive / cost $7- 12 per gallon
And then we have the old stand by, "Dino", as it is refereed here. This is usually today a Group II + and additives to make CI-4+. And this is also a great product used by over 90% of the Class 8 trucks going over 1 million miles!!!!!!! Cost whatever we can get usually around $4- 6
Base Oil School is now out. :-laf
So oil is not just oil when it comes to base oil.
Mobil 1 car oil (PCMO to me) is now a Group III it use to be a PAO. Changed last fall. Not several years ago.
Warren
Joseph Donnelly
TDR MEMBER
TDR #32, p. 26 had an expose on oil filters, cutaways, etc.
cyborg said:
I would be. I know Fleetguard is top notch filters. They are the ones who make a lot of filters for other apps. I have no probs with Fleetguard filters.
I don't run the cheapest filter I can find, it just so happens the ones I'm running now are cheap. The Mobile guy dropped the filters off yesterday when I was gone (gotta love free delivery). He quoted me $5. 60/ea. and the slip says $4. 50. I can't remember how many cases (6cnt) I've used of these, but it's either 12 or 18 filters with no problems. I've gone through a couple dozen WIX with no probs either. I change the oil at 10K and the filter at 5K. I think even a FRAM would be OK for 5K, but I'll let YOU try it out.
I started this thread to give a little info to guys looking for part #'s etc, not to start a brand war. I'm kinda glad it's turned into this, more fun this way.
OK, you guys got to me. Last night at 9:30 I went outside and dug my used Fleetguard Stratapore out of the garbage can and cut it open. The filter can is thicker than expected and the open end is very thick and heavy. There is a spring on the bottom to hold the filter element against a thick rubber gasket at the threads. The filter element looks like a larger version of the fleetguard fuel filter but probably made of different material. Wix is NOT written anywhere on the inside. There is no marking on the inside. My impression is that it's overbuilt and I will continue using this brand. Maybe next time I go to Walmart (seldom), I'll buy their filter and cut it open. It won't go in my CTD unless I can prove that it's identical to the Fleetguard. I don't think so.
The spring is for the bypass, to release during overpressure. The better filters all seem to use a stainless coil spring. The cheesier filters usually use something that looks like -^- .
Something I remember reading is that companies will make one size filter for several applications, even though the engine requires different by-pass pressures. i. e. The spring in question.
Sooooo even though the filter may fit, and be structurally sound, with a quality or even superior filtering media, the by-pass spring might not be to cummins specification.
I curious now if Fleetguard makes their own filter or contracts to someone.
Something I remember reading is that companies will make one size filter for several applications, even though the engine requires different by-pass pressures. i. e. The spring in question.
Sooooo even though the filter may fit, and be structurally sound, with a quality or even superior filtering media, the by-pass spring might not be to cummins specification.
I curious now if Fleetguard makes their own filter or contracts to someone.
You guys are not gonna like this but...
Fleetguard filters don't filter very well.
But, they do flow well. I would only use one in conjunction with a bypass filter. I make my conclusion from facts. Oilfilter study
Test data
From this study you can see that flow and filtration is a trade off. I run Baldwin or Amsoil because they have a good balance of filter/flow.
Fleetguard filters don't filter very well.
But, they do flow well. I would only use one in conjunction with a bypass filter. I make my conclusion from facts. Oilfilter study
Test data
From this study you can see that flow and filtration is a trade off. I run Baldwin or Amsoil because they have a good balance of filter/flow.
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