Oil Report

[Ramafid]

I've used Shell Rotella for the first 30K miles and then switched to Delvac 1. I also tested both oils at the 7500 mile mark to see if there would be a difference in wear particles. I was a little surprised at the results The Rotella was in use during the cold weather months and the Delvac was in the warm weather months. The reports were nearly identical except for the additive parts which differed slightly. The Rotella showed higher copper ( 4 vs 2) and the Delvac showed higher tin (1 vs 0 ). Everything else was the same. I didn't do a TBN on the Rotella but the TBN for the Delvac was 13. 5 I was hoping for better results with the Delvac. Makes spending 6 dollars a quart vs 1. 5 dollars a quart a little harder to justify.



ps. Both flashpoints were the same at 425 degrees.

 

[Michael Hughes]

What does TBN stand for?

 

[JJW_ND]

If one plans on dumping the oil every 5 - 7K, I would not run the more expensive synthetics except for winter arctic operation.



I also seen very little difference in the first 6K samples of synthetic vs the 6k dumped dino oil I tested. But when the synthetic oil test almost as good as the dino at 12 or 18K I was more impressed.



TBN is related to oil additives. It starts out high 8 or 10 or 12 and depletes as the additives are used. I think a 50% reduction in TBN is cause for change or addition of fresh oil. It is a good variable to watch on longer drains.



jjw

ND

 

[Mr. Brewski]

I hadnt heard of TBN only TAN (Total Acid Number). TAN is a measure of the oil's oxidation and high TAN#'s = no good. If your analysis lab doesnt have a clean sample to baseline the used sample with, I'd give them one. The additive packages can be quite different, possibly showing up as differences in wear metals. Had the viscosity changed? Was there any fuel dillution?

 

[DocStressor]

I've also not seen a difference in wear metals between a good conventional oil (Delo 400 isosyn) and either Delvac 1 or 15W-40 Amsoil over short intervals (3000 miles). Even though I am a big supporter of synthetics, I'm not convinced that the are a real benefit unless you go to extended drain intervals or operate under severe conditions.



TBN stands for total base number. This is a measurement of the residual acid buffering capacity of the oil. In other words, the remaining ability of the oil to neutralize acids. A high TBN is one of the distinguishing characteristics of a heavy duty diesel oil vs an oil intended for gasoline engines. Most of the acid formation in a diesel oil comes from sulfur in the fuel. Diesel fuel can contain as much as 500 ppm sulfur whereas the amount of sulfur in gasoline is almost negligible. The TBN of oil decrease over time as basic (acid neutralizing) additive components are used up. The condemnation limit for OTR trucks is usually 5. A TBN of 13. 5 is unusually high for Delvac, even when brand new. Makes you wonder about the validity of the rest of the analysis.



BTW, what were you iron numbers? Mine are usually between 20 and 24 ppm after 7500 miles.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I think Lee made a good point, as far as reducing friction the synthetics are not markedly better than the quality dino oils (like Delo 400) at reducing wear.



Where synthetics give you an edge is in the additive packages, because they are designed to go 10s of thousands of miles between changes. These additives are to keep the anti-wear properties intact and maintain viscosity over a long period of time. Another synthetic advantage is much improved flow in the winter, and improved protection in extreme high temps (remember how hot the turbo can get). ALso synthetics seem to do a better job of keeping your engine's innards nice and clean.



I like the Amsoil 5W30 I'm running and that's what I'm sticking with. Did 20,000 miles on the first change and the oil sample came back so good I will go at least 25,000-30,000 on this change. My metal count was only 41ppm after 20k and 3 Stratapore filters



Vaughn

 

[Mundgyver]

Something to add to the synthetics also. At the molecular level all the molecules are the same size in the synthetics. With regular oil they vary. This varience of size, sets up boundry flows within the oil journals and the moving parts, almost like looking at strata in a rock formation. Because of these boundry flows the oil will not cool quite as well. This is one of the reasons that Synthetics cause an engine to run just a little cooler with respect to oil temp. Because the molecules are all the same size, they are all tumbling and mixing it up, which allows them to carry away more heat. I know a fuel and oil chemist that works for Texaco

 

[Ramafid]

Lee,



Both samples were the same at 35 ppm of Iron at 7500 miles. You seem to be doing alot better with your Iron count. Here's the rest of info from the report.

Aluminum- 3

Copper- 2-4

Tin- 1-0

Chromium- 2

Lead- 3

Silicon- 7-8

Sodium- 3

Boron- 196-495

Calcium- 2200-2437

Magnesium- 367-8

Phosphorus- 1073-1028

Zinc- 1260-1183

Fuel- . 5

Insolubles- . 4-. 5



All other readings were zero. The first numbers were Delvac , the second Rotella

 

[Mr. Brewski]

20K between changes???

Let me get the straight. Vaughn you've run 20K between oil chanes? And you sent a sample out to a lab and could've gone farther on that same oil??? I've heard of them doing this in locomotives, and trucks, but in a little ol' 11 quart pan like ours? At 5K on Rotella, I'm starting to get some soot buildup in the oil. What does it look like at 20K? Will the soot hurt anything? If I could get away with changing the oil every 20K but for changing filters every 5K, it sounds like it's worth it! My thoughts on this were always buy good mineral based oils and change them more often then needed.

 

[Oil Man]

Vaughn,

I'd like to say that you are right in saying that "as far as reducing friction the synthetics are not markedly better than the quality dino oils (like Delo 400) at reducing wear. " I have seen this also and agree with you.



But then you said "Where synthetics give you an edge is in the additive packages, because they are designed to go 10s of thousands of miles between changes. These additives are to keep the anti-wear properties intact and maintain viscosity over a long period of time. " Here is where I have to dissagree with you. There are some petro oils that only have an additive package built for short oil drains but there are other petro oils that are made for long oil drains like the LE 8800 15w-40. This additive package used in the LE oil was made for up to 25,000 mile oil drains in a gas engine or up to 100,000 mile oil drains in a diesel engine. So you see the petro oils can have the high quality additive package that you say only synthetics have.



You said "Another synthetic advantage is much improved flow in the winter" Yes you are right --- synthetics are much better in the very cold temps than petro oils are. I think the Delo oil has a pour point of about -25 and the Delvac-1 oil has a pour point of about -65 deg F. In really cold temps this is a big difference. Not all synthetics have this low of a pour point and some are only about -40 deg F. Even that temp is lower than a petro oil.



You mentioned that synthetics have a higher temperature range than petro oils. Yes in general they do however the LE engine oil goes off the heat scale (300 deg c or 572 deg F) and never looses it's coefficient of friction. So your statement about petro oils in general is not for every oil as you can see by the resluts of the LE product



You said "ALso synthetics seem to do a better job of keeping your engine's innards nice and clean. " Synthetics as a rule of thumb have less undesirables in the base oil than a petro oil does. This could mean that they leave less contaminants from oil degradation than a petro oil does. However it's mostly the additive package in an oil petro or synthetic that keeps an engine clean. for instance just try and use a non-detergent oil in a diesel engine and you'll get a dirty sludgy engine in no time. So it's the additive package in the oil that keeps the engine clean. Look at the post above that showed the additive treat of Delvac-1 and Delo. The Calcium and Magnesium are the detergent/dispersants that keep the engine clean. The type of Calcium and Magnesium are important also but this kind of analysis will not show what kind that they are. However you see that the Delo uses mostly Calcium and almost no Magnesium at all but the Delvac-1 uses less Calcium and lots more Magnesium. This boosted Magnesium is a tell-tail sign of an oil that has an additive package for longer oil drains and will keep an engine cleaner longer than just the regular additive package synthetic or petro. The LE oil has a very boosted Magnesium ppm at 1212 and I'm sure that the Amsoil product does also, however I don't know the ppm of the Mag in the Amsoil product. The LE oil is a petro base oil and still it has Very low wear, Keeps engines very clean even for long oil drains, it has a higher oxidation resistance than some synthetics, it has the ability to handle soot better than most synthetics and petro oils. So in some cases you may be right if you were talking about regular oils, but the LE engine oils do not fall into those catagories. They are way ahead of the competition.

 

[DocStressor]

Does anyone have an unbiased oil analysis result using LE in the Cummins? It may be possible to stabilize a Group II base stock for 25K using a superior additive package. But I am not yet convinced of this. There have been many posts of analysis data for Delo, Amsoil, and Delvac. I know that some of you guys have tried LE. How did it stack up?

 

[Sled Puller]

Lee,



Steve St'Laurant has one, maybe he could post it for us?



Details,Steve, details!



Gene

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Hey Kevin, I guess I should leave the oil discussion up to the experts When I talk about dino oils in general I certainly don't consider LE to be a typical dino oil, I am talking about those such as Rotella T and Premium Blue, etc. that are not intended (as far as I know) to go for long drain intervals. LE is certainly an exception, an exceptional oil for sure!



Mr. Brewski, yup, I sure did go 20,000 miles on an oil change with about 3-4 quarts makeup oil, so if you want to be technical about it, more than 1/4 of the oil didn't go the distance.



I changed my filters every 7,000 miles. My soot level in the last analysis was under 1%, 1% is the lowest shown on Oil Analyzer's service, which I use (get it thru Amsoil). My oil was quite black, but even if it looks black doesn't mean it's sooted up enough to be concerned about. But that is a good question, what % of soot is an acceptible limit??? As far as soot, with my DD2s the oil seems to get black quicker, but I do try to drive somewhat careful and keep the smoke in check.



I've had my valve cover off a couple times and at 46,000 miles it's still new looking. Amsoilman posted a pix of his 120,000+ mile engine with the valve cover off.



Vaughn

 

[WCrovo]

Kevin I run LE 90% of the time. Once in awhile the dealer dose the change for free and I pay the diff for Prem Bl. I never tested my oil. I have never had a oil related issue. I always change at least the filter every 3,000 miles and always do both every 6,000. Is it good to run a thin oil like 5/30? How much better is your oil than Delo 400? The only isuue with LE is the $'s. I have never been one to do extended oil changes. My truck spends its life at about 18,500 lbs. Sometimes being cheap is expensive. Dose anyones truck use oil under hard service? Mine dosen't use a drop under the most severe conditions. My blow by bottle is always damp but never anything to drain. Is this the norm or the LE? I am close to being out of the LE and wondering if I should change to Delo 400 available at Wal-mart.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Michael Hughes

What does TBN stand for?

Total Base Number. It's a measure of how well the oil counteracts the acids produced in combustion.

I believe TBN is used on engine oils, whilst TAN is used for other gear lubes.



Fest3er

 

[Oil Man]

Vaughn,

Thank you and now I understand what you said better.



WCrovo,

To answer your question "how much better is LE than Delo. Delo or even Valvoline PB oil are not even in the ball park with the LE oil. The LE oil is far better than those other oils.



My personal opinion about using a 5w-30 oil in your engine is this. The dealer and the mfg of your engine says to use a 15w-40 at temps above 0 deg F . Or use a 10w-30 at 0 deg F to 30 Deg F. and only use a 5w-30 synthetic if temps are consistantly below 0 deg F. I have to agree with them because they have tested those engines much more than we ever will and if they say use a 15w-40 at regular temps and only use a 5w-30 in temps below 0 deg F. then that is what I beleive is the best viscosity.

 

[WCrovo]

Thanx Kevin. I'll stick with LE 15/40.

 

[MBUCCI]

I have been using Texas Refinery 15/40 Pro spec III. TRC does not get talked about here but it is a popular oil around here in heavy equipment and tri axles. TBN of 14 and extended drain oil. My father has a 98 12 valve with 120000 miles . changed oil every 10000 miles. top of the cylinder head looks like new with no sludge. does anyone know of this oil.

 

[SixShooter]

How does the premium Blue 2000 stack up against LE oil? What about PB2000 with Power services diesel oil supplement? I will only be changing the Stataore filter at 3000 and the oil at 6000 so how would they stack up against each other under those circmstances?

 

[JJW_ND]

I ran the PB2000 for several drains and seemed like a pretty good oil. Just not "thin" enough with the artic winters up here.



Jacob82,,,,,why change the oil filter every 3K? I see you live in TX. Lots warmer down there. Unless you are only driving 5 miles or less each trip, I would run 6K on both filter and oil. If you spend some coin to have a few changes test, you will never find (with most any modern CH4 oil) an oil sample that should have been drained, unless you develop an injector leak or antifreeze in the oil. WHich BTW would be pickup up prior to causing damage most likely with oil testing.



While the 5w30 is what is recomend by the "factory" what all went into making that decsion? Lack of lighter weight oils meeting spec at the time? have a weight that works why change phyilosiphy?



BTW, Cummins has been testing 5W30-40 oils, but it will be DC that sets the requirement.



Just seed in the grain bin here, but I have ran and tested a 5W synthetic oil now for the last three summers. I changed to it because I was not satisfied with the 40W synthetic winter performance. This weight oil really does well in cold weather, fast oil pressure, great test samples. I left it in the first summer to see how it does beings I sample every 6K (198K on truck). It did as well and even better the full synthetic 40W. TBN stays higher, less change in VisC index over time. And wear metals lower over time as compared to full synthetic 40W oil. My one truck testing occurred from KS to ND pulling trailers loads that would void warrenty, summer and winter. Maybe it doesn't get as warm up here and I have just getting by, but then again, it seems like modern engines are going to lighter oils (most gassers require now 5W30 and just recently Ford going to 5W20).



I still think protection at first startup is more critical then protetion at WOT to the live of our engines.



You should see how THICK 15W40 is at -30. I have, and was not surprised most diesels have trouble starting at those temps with that oil. You will also, be really impressed in how long it takes to get oil pressure.



jjw

ND