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OK - Now DC wants to build a 400 HP Hemi???

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Hemis..

There is actually an advantage to not having a "true Hemi" chamber.



The domed piston used on earlier Hemis was a necessary evil. The chamber volume was so large that a domed piston was necessary to get any kind of reasonable compression out of it. While a regular 440 chamber runs about 88ccs, a (426) Hemi chamber could top 175ccs easily. With only a 3. 75" stroke, you're not going to get any reasonable compression ratio without a huge dome.



The domed piston is bad, though. It causes the combustion chamber at TDC to resemble an orange peel. This hurts flame propagation and results in high emissions and poor economy, and (believe it or not) less power due to incomplete burn.



Moreover, you can't design a "true hemi" (meaning a sphere intersected horizontally by a plane running through its center) to have effective piston quench without anemic cam specs.



All original Chysler Hemis do not have perfectly hemispherical chambers, as was mentioned. It just doesn't work well.



The new 5. 7L Hemi is even less of a perfect hemisphere. Instead of the plane intersecting the sphere at its center, the current combustion chamber looks as if the horizontal plane intersects the sphere about 1/3rd the way from center to the top of the sphere. Why?



First, this allows the benefits of the Hemi design with further refinement. Now, the chamber maintains a much smaller volume (for better emissions and more power) without the use of a huge dome. A mildly domed piston can be used, which enhances flame propagation and allows for some semblance of quench.



It's interesting to note that the rated power of the current 345hp 5. 7L Hemi is roughly comparable to the rated power of the great 426 Hemi of 425hp, when you account for the difference between SAE gross (old Hemi) and SAE Net (new Hemi) horsepower. While many feel that the 426 street hemi was grossly underrated at 425hp, it's probably an urban legend. While it probably was underrated, it would have been slight. Quarter mile times from magazine tests in 1970 and 1971 often showed a near draw between the 425hp Hemi and the 390hp 440 six pack-- in some cases the six-pack cars were faster.



Now the Hemis certainly had much more potential horsepower than the 440 (given the stock heads), as the 426 was basically a homologation engine. But in factory trim, the 426 Hemi was often not much faster than than a hot 440 car.



Justin
 
Oh-- I also meant to mention an interesting comparison of the 5. 7L Hemi to the 5. 9L 360 it replaced. While the new Hemi is 0. 2L smaller (345CID vs 360CID), it produces 100 more hp, and delivers BETTER economy! The 360 is known as a gas guzzler.



If you look at the bore and stroke of the new Hemi, it's basically a 360 stroke with a 318 bore (3. 58" stroke x 3. 92" bore). Connecting rods are still the same length at 6. 123", yielding a decent rod:stroke ratio of 1. 71 (better Ford of Chevy v-8s).



Of course, the 426 Hemi had a 6. 86" rod for only a 3. 75" stroke, for an incredible ratio of 1. 83. I think that's the highest of any American made V-8 other than the Mopar 383/400, which had a 6. 358" rods for their 3. 38" strokes, yielding 1. 88!!!



Now you know why the 383 was such a high-rpm screamer! It actually had a much shorter stroke than even a small block 360. Only . 07" longer than a 318.



Sorry, Mopar engines are a passion of mine, so I could talk Mopar engine design and theory (and superiority, of course) all day.....



Justin
 
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Sorry guys, but---



All older hemi engines use a domed piston, not flat top, that is was makes the engine special. It doesnt matter what the head looks like really, thats only part of it. If Dodge calls their engine a hemi, then toyota should also becuase it has a center spark plug and a hemisperically shaped combustion chamber. Dodge made a 2. 3 hemi, remember the badges on some of their small cars such as the Daytona? All they did was stick a spark plug in the center of the head just like they did this time around, DC is good with decieving people.....
 
EBottema said:
Sorry guys, but---



All older hemi engines use a domed piston, not flat top, that is was makes the engine special.
Doesn't matter. HEMI refers to the combustion chamber shape in the head, NOT the piston crown shape.



The piston crown shape will change dramatically between a 14:1 naturally aspirated and a 7:1 nitro-burning blower engine, but the head's combustion chamber shape will remain basically the same.



But, at the end of the day, it's really not worth debating.



Rusty
 
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Hohn,



The 426 Hemi was rated at 425hp and was dynoed at 470hp gross. The 440 6pak was a great street engine and also dynoed well above its advertised hp rating of 390hp and generally put out about 415 hp gross. Many musclecar engines were rated at far less power than they actually produced. My 455 W-30 Olds engine was rated at 370hp (5 more than the standard 455 442 engine, despite special heads, intake& exhaust manifolds and camshaft) but actually put out 440 hp. Other wildly underrated engines were the L-88 427 at 430 hp at 5hp more than the L-72 despite its 12. 5:1 compression vs. the 11. 5:1 L-72 and the L-88's much hotter cam; as well as the Buick 455 Stage 1 rated at 360 hp and pumping out 430 gross hp. Among the correctly rated engines were the LS-6 454 at 450hp.



One thing that I remain confused about is the net vs. gross ratings. These ratings were changed from gross to net in 1972, but not all engines are rated net. How do you tell which ratings are which. Our CTD trucks for example are rated at 325/600, and yet put out about 270 hp at the rear wheels so they are rated at gross hp. Your saying the Hemi is rated at net hp (rwhp?) but if so, why the difference?



Dave
 
DPelletier said:
How do you tell which ratings are which. Our CTD trucks for example are rated at 325/600, and yet put out about 270 hp at the rear wheels so they are rated at gross hp. Your saying the Hemi is rated at net hp (rwhp?) but if so, why the difference?
Dave,



Net BHP is not equal to RWHP. Net BHP is engine flywheel horsepower with all accessories, exhaust, etc. So it might be reasonable for a 325 net BHP truck to put 270 HP to the rear wheels (RWHP) - the difference is mechanical drivetrain losses.



Gross BHP was also flywheel BHP, but without accessories, in some cases with dyno headers and (often) a strong dose of marketing wishful thinking! :rolleyes:



Rusty
 
RustyJC said:
Dave,



Net BHP is not equal to RWHP. Net BHP is engine flywheel horsepower with all accessories, exhaust, etc. So it might be reasonable for a 325 net BHP truck to put 270 HP to the rear wheels (RWHP) - the difference is mechanical drivetrain losses.



Gross BHP was also flywheel BHP, but without accessories, in some cases with dyno headers and (often) a strong dose of marketing wishful thinking! :rolleyes:



Rusty



Exactly. Net means water pump, alternator, power steering pump, exhaust manifolds, etc are installed and sucking power.



Gross means the dyno provides coolant, electricity, etc. They switched to NET because it more accurately reflected the flywheel hp as installed in the vehicle. I guess you could say the old way was a "gross" exaggeration? hehehe. :D



Example:

360hp SAE gross

310hp SAE net

250hp AT THE WHEELS.
 
DPelletier said:
Hohn,



The 426 Hemi was rated at 425hp and was dynoed at 470hp gross. The 440 6pak was a great street engine and also dynoed well above its advertised hp rating of 390hp and generally put out about 415 hp gross. Many musclecar engines were rated at far less power than they actually produced. My 455 W-30 Olds engine was rated at 370hp (5 more than the standard 455 442 engine, despite special heads, intake& exhaust manifolds and camshaft) but actually put out 440 hp. Other wildly underrated engines were the L-88 427 at 430 hp at 5hp more than the L-72 despite its 12. 5:1 compression vs. the 11. 5:1 L-72 and the L-88's much hotter cam; as well as the Buick 455 Stage 1 rated at 360 hp and pumping out 430 gross hp. Among the correctly rated engines were the LS-6 454 at 450hp.



One thing that I remain confused about is the net vs. gross ratings. These ratings were changed from gross to net in 1972, but not all engines are rated net. How do you tell which ratings are which. Our CTD trucks for example are rated at 325/600, and yet put out about 270 hp at the rear wheels so they are rated at gross hp. Your saying the Hemi is rated at net hp (rwhp?) but if so, why the difference?



Dave



I emailed some knowledgeable muscle cars guys about this and they seconded Dave's comments. One interesting observation--



Most muscle car "ratings" were NOT PEAK HP ratings! Since insurance companies would charge based on HP "rating", and would not insure a car over 425hp, that's why the Hemi and others were never rated more than 425hp.



What they would do is find the rpm where the engine made the power they wanted to quote, then "rate" the engine at that rpm.



Thus, the 426 Hemi was rated at 425hp at 5000rpm, when in reality, peak HP occurred between 6000 and 6300 rpm.



Interesting. So, in a sense they WERE and the WEREN'T underrated:) Can anyone confirm this?



Justin
 
Thanks Rusty and Justin,

I got thinking that I was confusing rwhp with net hp. Thanks for clarifying.

Also, the insurance played a big part, but there were also coporate politics to blame for some of the under-ratings. For example the W-34 455 Toronado was rated at 390 hp compared to the same engine in the W-30 442 because the Toronado was a more expensive car and the buyer deserved a higher rating!



Cheers,

Dave
 
DPelletier said:
For example the W-34 455 Toronado was rated at 390 hp compared to the same engine in the W-30 442 because the Toronado was a more expensive car and the buyer deserved a higher rating!
Dave,



Another factor was that GM had a 10 lbs/BHP minimum limit for installing the big blocks in the intermediate cars for a long time. Thus, a 3400 lb vehicle couldn't be rated at more than 340 BHP (although BHP ratings were often arbitrarily assigned to meet this requirement).



As you correctly pointed out, insurance rates were tied to lbs/BHP as well. That's why I went for the 351 Cleveland 4V (300 BHP rating ;) ) instead of the 429 Cobra Jet or Super Cobra Jet when my wife and I bought our first new car after college - a new 1970 Mercury Cyclone GT. We both wish we still had that car!! :(



Rusty
 
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in addition (someone is probably going to slap our hands eventually for being off topic, but until then... . ), GM wouldn't allow it's corporate partners to use an engine bigger than 400 ci in a midsize car until 1970. This honor was reserved for the Corvette. This is the reason for '64 - 69 396 Chevelles, 389 and 400 pontiac GTO's, 400 ci 442's and Buick GS's.

The biggest example I can think of to illustrate the hp numbers game is to compare the correctly rated 1970 Chevelle 454 LS-6 to the incorrectly rated 1970 Buick GS Stage 1. Despite the alleged hp difference of 90hp (450hp vs. 360hp) it is generally agreed that either car is capable of winning a race between them on any given day.



I now realize that I did know the rwhp vs. sae net difference at one point in time, but had since forgotten it. Must be getting old!



Dave
 
Hohn said:
This thread's too good to put back on topic... . :)



Yeah, but now I'm thinking of another musclecar. I've been going to a few of the events and was at a musclecar auction two weeks ago, but they've gotten so expensive. If I get another one, it has to be at least as fast as my '70 442 W-30, but that ain't gonna be easy. Hemi's, LS-6's and big block vettes are out of my price range now. A nice 440+6 Roadrunner or Superbee would be nice, though, '68 - '69's are my favorite examples of those.



Ah, I'll keep dreaming for now!



Dave
 
It does matter :)



There are many engines today with Hemispherically shaped combustion chambers such as toyota. They don't try to trick the public with the word hemi. The word HEMI is only good when both the piston and head are hemisperically shaped, otherwise there is no point
 
EBottema said:
It does matter :)



There are many engines today with Hemispherically shaped combustion chambers such as toyota. They don't try to trick the public with the word hemi. The word HEMI is only good when both the piston and head are hemisperically shaped, otherwise there is no point





Actually, most 4-valve-per-cylinder engines built by Japanese companies use what is referred to as a "pent roof" chameber design, which is superior to the Hemi design.



Compare this piston for a pent roof design:



#ad






To THIS piston designed for a Chrysler Hemi:



#ad




None of the "Hemis" has used a truly hemisperical chamber OR piston, certainly not both. It's a poor design.



I think the "Hemi" marketing is fine. The main feature of a "hemi" to me is having two valves perpendicular to the crankshaft, instead of parallel like almost all other domestic V-8s.



Justin
 
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The main advantages of the 392 and 426 HEMI were:



1. Valves tilted toward ports for improved flow (this has to do with the valve location perpendicular to the crankshaft as mentioned by Justin).



2. Valve peripheries (aka curtain areas) not shrouded by combustion chamber walls.



3. Valves could be relatively large for minimal flow losses and large curtain areas at partial lifts.



All the above, you will notice, relate to flow. The HEMI had some disadvantages, too, that were challenges for the Chrysler engineers to overcome:



1. Heavy and complex valvetrain required high valve spring pressures and limited maximum RPM. Specifically, the intermediate rocker and pushrod required for the exhaust valves added quite a bit of valvetrain inertia.



2. High crevice volumes at TDC with domed pistons - thermal losses, high emissions and impaired combustion efficiencies.



3. Cam timing and lift could be limited by valve angles, valve sizes and valve-to-valve and/or valve-to-piston interference.



Rusty
 
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Speaking of Hemis, this is the fire-breathing I-6 140 HP SOHC 230ci Tornado engine, a Kaiser design of the late 50's :)



#ad
 
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I got me one of 'dem new Hemi Cars. Picked up my '05 Magnum about 3600 miles ago. It's a land rocket - not the fastest, but definitely fast enough. And good mileage too. I just wanted a Dodge car, rwd, with a V8. I ordered the thing before I ever actually saw one. Love the looks and the utility of it.

When on the highway it'll get about 26 mpg average, and about 15 city. I'm a lead foot so it gets less than those numbers usually, but on the pleasure cruises the mileage is great. Interesting, when it's in V-4 mode it'll get over 38 mpg, but it doesn't stay in that mode for very long. Any power needs, including slight hills, and it'll switch back to V-8. I've had the exhaust opened up so I can hear when it switches in and out of the MDS mode. Sweet car, but there's one big difference between it and the trucks - gears. The Magnum R/T comes with 2. 86 gears, and as a result it's kind of a dog off the line, but it has a LOT of legs once it gets wound up. Only real gripe is the transmission - the 5-speed Mercedes trans is neat and all, but it shifts like a beat slush box - not my favorite... 'course I'm used to a full-tilt 727 or an A-833 4-speed so I'm biased, and the throttle response in my '71 440-powered Demon is a LOT better than the Magnum... but I don't drive the Demon to work every day either ;) .



As far as the actual heads, etc, makes no never mind to me. The Tupperware above the valve covers say HEMI, and that's all that matters to me. Nothing will ever, ever come close to the engines of yesteryear - the frightening power and absolute simplicity of that old iron will be what everything continues to be compared against. Top Fuel runs Hemi-style engines for a reason - they make the most power per cubic inch of any engine combo ever created - period... at least as far as I'm concerned they do - fun to watch at the track too!



Now, what I AM interested in , is what is Everhnam going to drop into his Chargers for Daytona next year... ... ...

- Sam
 
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Hohn said:
Oh-- I also meant to mention an interesting comparison of the 5. 7L Hemi to the 5. 9L 360 it replaced. While the new Hemi is 0. 2L smaller (345CID vs 360CID), it produces 100 more hp, and delivers BETTER economy! The 360 is known as a gas guzzler.



If you look at the bore and stroke of the new Hemi, it's basically a 360 stroke with a 318 bore (3. 58" stroke x 3. 92" bore). Connecting rods are still the same length at 6. 123", yielding a decent rod:stroke ratio of 1. 71 (better Ford of Chevy v-8s).



Of course, the 426 Hemi had a 6. 86" rod for only a 3. 75" stroke, for an incredible ratio of 1. 83. I think that's the highest of any American made V-8 other than the Mopar 383/400, which had a 6. 358" rods for their 3. 38" strokes, yielding 1. 88!!!



Now you know why the 383 was such a high-rpm screamer! It actually had a much shorter stroke than even a small block 360. Only . 07" longer than a 318.



Sorry, Mopar engines are a passion of mine, so I could talk Mopar engine design and theory (and superiority, of course) all day.....



Justin

Justn,

You do know your MOPAR engines! :) Have been trying to talk my "other side" into a Magnum, but she likes the 300's better! I realize the engines in the 300 and the Magnum are the same, but I can get the Magnum for 1 % over invoice :D



Wayne

amsoilman
 
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