On the hunt for more air.

[coueta]

Hello all,

I can find answers to my questions most of the time, but I've been researching turbos for the last couple weeks and my brain just hurts. I haven't posted to a forum in nearly a decade (with the exception of this morning), so here goes...

Working on a really long, drawn out project and as things have evolved the truck has put on a lot of weight and I'm becoming more concerned that I'm building a failure in terms of power. The goal shouldn't be too hard to achieve, I want the rig I'm building to tow at least as well as my stock 2006 6 speed and have responsive in-town manners despite it's 9,000 lbs curb weight.

The engine is from a 1991 automatic non-ic, it has 85k miles, I've torn it down and re-sealed just about everything, added a Denny T pin, 3,200 RPM spring, rebuilt a WH1C from a 1994 2500. Thinking at the time was 225 hp would be sufficient, now that the truck has put on 3,000 lbs and the towables are getting heavier, it might be time to get closer to the 325-350 hp range. From what I've read, the stock injectors are pretty healthy on these early motors and the VE pump should have no problem feeding the mill at these power levels. Estimating the GCVW won't be more than about 26,000 lbs at the very high end.

With the axle ratios and the transmission ratios, the truck will spend most of it's time cruising at 1800 and dropping to direct for 2300 rpm climbing hills (Pacific Northwest)

The big questions are... Will the 12cm/wg housing create unmanageable heat issues? And, would a 60mm wheel and housing on the compressor side be beyond it's effective range? This rig will have a 7.3 Powerstroke intercooler and a 4-row copper 7.3 IDI radiator, hoping these will help keep things cool.

I've checked out the aftermarket turbo options, and they all seem to sacrifice a fast spool up compared to the tiny 12cm turbine. Ideally I'd like to find a turbo that will be comfortable in these ranges, with the industrial exhaust manifold and giant heat/ac housing, this won't be an easy item to work on once it's assembled.

Thank you all for your time and experience.

-Tony

 

[MMeier]

Check out the Super B turbo, judging from what you posted I think it will work good for what you are after .

 

[cerberusiam]

You will probbaly need something on the order of a 62 compressor to provide the quality of air where you want it. With the stock injectors you will be short of fuel to spool much more than a 58 wheel though. Once you get into the higher GVW's and want to run that low of rpm it will likely get warm. The manual will help a lot as you drop a gear whne you have issues but you should probably still build it so you can cruise in 5th at rated weight.

 

[coueta]

Checking out the Super B now, it's definitely 'advertised' as a fit. I'll keep digging into the specifics.

Now would be the time to sink a set of injectors into the mix if that's what it will take to keep the fire going at high load and RPM. Will a 62mm compressor take considerably more to spin up? If it's a matter of 100-150 RPM to get air moving a 5 mph adjustment could take care of it. I will start looking at 62mm options, too. I think I seen a 62/65/14... CPP house brand maybe.

I kept 5th gear rpm fairly low for the regular empty miles it will see.

 

[MMeier]

For injectors, I bought a set from Red Oak Diesel service, rated as 50-60 HP over stock, much like PODs but without the smoke issues !

 

[coueta]

For injectors, I bought a set from Red Oak Diesel service, rated as 50-60 HP over stock, much like PODs but without the smoke issues !

I thought the CPL 0804 injectors were a jump above the 91.5-93 sticks stock.

I wonder if there's still a benefit to installing an even larger set.

 

[Bob4x4]

Keep in mind your 12 valve head does not flow as well as your 06.

 

[coueta]

No doubt this old beast has it's inherit short-Cummins when compared to the 2006. I've been a car/truck guy for fun and professionally from the beginning, but it was the 2006 325/610 motor that drove me to respect and love these engines. I was forced to sell my 2006 in 2009 when I had to leave the car repair world and join the train repair world, the dealer I was working for fell flat on their face in terms of service income and sales income, had to make many changes to stay afloat.

There were a few things I didn't like about the Ram, mostly personal preference items. But now that I'm back on my feet, it's time to get a truck on the road. I'm really hoping this engine can be as entertaining to operate as the 2006 was.

I'm confident it can be, just have to do the research, listen to other folk's experience and make the right choices.

Thank you to all for your input so far!

 

[cerberusiam]

That will be the biggest challenge, tuning the engine to provide enough fuel to spool the turbo where you need it with minimal smoke. Actually the HE351 is a really good choice for a quick spooling relatively high flowing turbo. Its biggest failing is on the top end where it tends to choke itself. The caveat is a 12V doesn't want to spool it correctly without some work. Not enough fuel down low and a bit smoky if you don't tune it correctly.

The autos are a lot tougher to tune but with your manual it should be somewhat easier. A good set of larger injectors will make a huge difference.

Entertaining, yes. Effective, no. The CR engines are about the easiest to work on and tune. These 12V's are another beast entiurely and take some work to get them optimized.

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

People are probably tired of hearing the basic working concept of a Diesel - air in (add fuel) air out. If you change one component in this formula you will in have to adjust or change another part of that formula.

With my '93 I have found that my PDRHX35, which is a hybrid HX35 that is coupled to a 14cm waste-gated hot side. I have had it run 38 psi of boost but with the addition of a larger and better breathing intake horn that should drop to under 35 psi. The inter cooler you are running should be able to get you to at least 350 RWHP. If you have not already installed an aftermarket intake horn you should probably consider adding one to improve air flow. You might want to think of twins which will add power while lowering EGTs. Remember that updated injectors advertise at the minimum power increase you can expect.

As far as the pre ;91 head goes they were prone to head cracking due to the 9mm injector holes. You may be able to move enough air and coolant to properly keep the head cool with the radiator and IC you are running.

I see the trans as the weak link for 26.000 GCW you are planing on. Keep in mind towing that much weight might lead to premature trans failure. Check Transmission Exchanges web site they are located on Portland and have a chart posted that shows the trans fluid life as it relates temperature of that fluid. You might want to look into an after market trans cooler. Dodge used a cooler mounted under the bed on the passenger side. I have seen some after market coolers that would work in this position at a much better price than Dodge prices. You might want to look into removing the under exhaust OEM trans cooler if you go with under bed cooler. You will have to do a search for the trans cooler - I ran across them while surfing the net.

You also might want to look into running on a dyno to see exactly what your RWHP is. Source Automotive has a Mustang dyno. They are located in just outside of Portland.

Bob

 

[coueta]

The HE351 would be more appealing if the price hadn't inflated over the last few years.

I'm not sure I have room for twins with the industrial manifold. Plumbing would have to get creative. I'm not opposed to the idea, just makes things more complicated.

Right now the intake horn is off a 1994, may need to make my own or find something aftermarket when it comes time to plumb the air-to-air.

The transmission is absolutely the weak link mechanically... It has been rebuilt, three new gears, shift forks, bearings and synchros. Wasn't my first choice, but ended up with one out of familiarity and availability. I've had one in a dump truck for the last fifteen years, hasn't been an issue. If it pops, I'll scout a 5600.

When this gets rolling I'll have to make a trip to Source Automotive. Dynomite Diesel has one too in Monroe, WA. About 40 minutes from here.

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

I've got an OEM manifold that I removed from my '93 that is sill good if you are interested. That would make twins a whole lot easier to install. I took it off when I put the 3 piece manifold which I had ported.

Sorry about the trans confusion I thought you were running an old 3speed torqueflite. Are you running a ZF trans or an NV4500HD?

Bob

 

[coueta]

Thank you! I still have the OE manifold, too... I tracked down the industrial manifold to help with heat/ac fitment issues with the bricknose Ford. The original manifold put the turbine in contact with the AC receiver drier. This manifold gets close to the evaporator housing, but it's manageable.

It will be a ZF 5 speed with the close ratio gear set.

 

[cerberusiam]

A different air horn, or even CAC, is just not going to make a significant difference in EGT's. The turbo and the quality of air will make a bigger difference in controlling them. Injectors, fuel pump setup, timing, etc, is going to be where it makes or breaks power vs EGT's.

Gear ratios are going to be significant once you get over 16-18 GVW.

Be prepared for some noise if you try to run loaded under 2000 rpms, once it drops into the harmonics zone you will get some signifant noise and probaby vibrations. The more power you run it under and heavier the load the worse it gets. Empty at 1800 is not a big deal, loaded is another thing entirely.

 

[RSchwarzli]

A few personal thoughts:

Manifold - For the few dollars a aftermarket 3 pc manifold is, dont put on a stock one! Not worth the time it takes to put it on as it will kill your flow and will eventually fail as it shrinks.

Turbo - A good PDR HX35 would do wonders, or maybe even a Super HX40. The super 40 is a 60/65/16 WG if memory serves. I currently run it and LOVE it.

Power - Seems to me you should be looking for TQ, not HP. For towing 26,000 lbs, that is more important.

Overall - On my 1990, I run a cold air intake, Super HX40, 2nd Gen IC, 2nd gen intake horn, ATS 3 pc manifold, 4" turbo back exhaust. For fuel, I have the pump turned up (fuel screw) and stock injectors. That combo, as it sits, is around 320/800 at the wheels. The turbo is amazing and has about same lag as my old HX35 with 18cm (that was on the dyno at 274/720 and that was before the intake, IC, and turbo.)

As that truck sits, it out tows the 2008 6.7 every time.

Robert

 

[coueta]

A different air horn, or even CAC, is just not going to make a significant difference in EGT's. The turbo and the quality of air will make a bigger difference in controlling them. Injectors, fuel pump setup, timing, etc, is going to be where it makes or breaks power vs EGT's.

Gear ratios are going to be significant once you get over 16-18 GVW.

Be prepared for some noise if you try to run loaded under 2000 rpms, once it drops into the harmonics zone you will get some signifant noise and probaby vibrations. The more power you run it under and heavier the load the worse it gets. Empty at 1800 is not a big deal, loaded is another thing entirely.

The fuel and air are really the crux of my research right now. I added info on gear ratios and potential weight the rig will see thinking it could give an idea as to what it will be doing. It will spend most of it's life around 9,000 lbs unloaded. Time spent around 26,000 will be limited and of short duration, but it will get there. I setup the differentials with 3.73 as a compromise with a 225/70-19.5 tire, 4.1x or below calculated out as annoying unloaded around 70 mph and 3.5x would take a ton of patience loaded at 65. Going to leave enough room between the transmission and transfer case to add a divorced 3 speed brownie if necessary, hoping this will be acceptable without one. The front driveshaft keeps growing in diameter as the tcase moves rearward.

CPP has a house brand Borg Warner turbo at 62/65/14 or 12 which kind of stands out right now.

Would the stock 4 x 0.012 light off something this size, or could a faster/cleaner spool-up be achieved with a 6 or 7 hole injector with a modest bump in cross section?

Then, with the air and fuel added... a slight bump in timing and everything happy... Is the cylinder head going to stay put with factory bolts and gasket?

Harmonics are a concern, suppose it'd be best to cross that bridge when we get there.

Thank you again,

Tony

 

[coueta]

A few personal thoughts:

Manifold - For the few dollars a aftermarket 3 pc manifold is, dont put on a stock one! Not worth the time it takes to put it on as it will kill your flow and will eventually fail as it shrinks.

Turbo - A good PDR HX35 would do wonders, or maybe even a Super HX40. The super 40 is a 60/65/16 WG if memory serves. I currently run it and LOVE it.

Power - Seems to me you should be looking for TQ, not HP. For towing 26,000 lbs, that is more important.

Overall - On my 1990, I run a cold air intake, Super HX40, 2nd Gen IC, 2nd gen intake horn, ATS 3 pc manifold, 4" turbo back exhaust. For fuel, I have the pump turned up (fuel screw) and stock injectors. That combo, as it sits, is around 320/800 at the wheels. The turbo is amazing and has about same lag as my old HX35 with 18cm (that was on the dyno at 274/720 and that was before the intake, IC, and turbo.)

As that truck sits, it out tows the 2008 6.7 every time.

Robert

I'm running the industrial manifold to set the turbo back near cylinder 5, I needed the room. The other option on the table at the time was a 3rd gen manifold, but the different port design appeared restrictive.

I'll check out the PDR HX35... Haven't spent much time looking at the HX35 because of the H1C sitting on the manifold now.

Definitely looking for torque over speed. 320/800 at the wheels would keep me happy, my 06 couldn't have been close to that.

 

[RSchwarzli]

I'm running the industrial manifold to set the turbo back near cylinder 5, I needed the room. The other option on the table at the time was a 3rd gen manifold, but the different port design appeared restrictive.

I'll check out the PDR HX35... Haven't spent much time looking at the HX35 because of the H1C sitting on the manifold now.

Definitely looking for torque over speed. 320/800 at the wheels would keep me happy, my 06 couldn't have been close to that.

I ran my H1C for a long time. I eventually found though that the EGTs would get too hot when under load even though the boost numbers were the same as what I eventually got out of my HX35.

 

[NIsaacs]

Thank you! I still have the OE manifold, too... I tracked down the industrial manifold to help with heat/ac fitment issues with the bricknose Ford. The original manifold put the turbine in contact with the AC receiver drier. This manifold gets close to the evaporator housing, but it's manageable.

It will be a ZF 5 speed with the close ratio gear set.

Don't forget, as a tow rig you need to have room for an exhaust brake Here is a pic of my Cummins/Ford with the high mount manifold, it might be an option. It looks like you changed out the diaphragm vacuum pump used on the cpl 0804, for a rotary. I think I would run what you have, injectors/turbo wise, unless you are set on 300+ hp. That combo should be good for 280/750. Here is a dyno sheet from my Industrial cpl 0856.

The ZF is a good transmission. Matched with the 3.73's it will be a good combo. The 4.10 gears allows you to pull down a house in 5th, a bad thing, the 3.73's will force a down shift to 4th, a good thing. Good luck in your build, looks like a dandy!

Nick

 

[coueta]

Thank you Nick,

I haven't seen that manifold in a Ford before, does it place the turbo centered between cylinders 3&4? Ditched the diaphragm vacuum pump, this pump will probably be overkill for just HVAC controls, oh well.

I'm not stuck on a certain number, I just want this to pull like my 2006 and since that had 325hp, I figured 300-350 would be a good place to start. What I hadn't considered when dreaming up the 350 number is how easily these early engines blow passed the 610 torque rating of that newer truck. I just want to make sure I'm not setting this up to be a disappointment, it's much easier to hang a better charger and sink some bigger fuel into this thing before it gets wrapped in sheet metal.

If 800 ft lbs is comfortable for the current charger, Yahtzee... If everything will run happier with a modified HX35 or a performance turbo, now would be the time to hang it and compliment the change with more appropriate injectors.

Thank you to everyone who's chimed in on this, it's given me a great deal to think about and better direct my research.