? on using a 9 1/4 rear axle carrier in front axle.

[DE Jeeper]

I got my hands on a 9 1/4 rear carrier from an '01 1500 that has a track lock. The ls does need a rebuild, but I can do that. I was wondering if anyone knew with certainty if the carrier would work in the front of my truck. I thought this would be a good inexpensive way to upgrade the front axle. BTW, I set up rear ends all the time so the carrier swap is easy for me.



Thanks,

Aaron

 

[rbattelle]

I don't know, but isn't the front diff a "reverse rotation"? If so, then I wouldn't expect a rear diff to work up front... just a guess.



If it's not reverse rotation then I can't think of any particular reason it wouldn't work up front... just my opinion.



-Ryan

 

[DE Jeeper]

It doesn't matter what direction the carrier spins. I am going to mount my current front ring gear on the ls carrier and reinstall to the the backlash spec. The ls will also work in either direction.



What I really need to know is ... are the carriers the same. Speciffically, are the bearings the same or can the correct bearings be pressed on and if the carrier will accept the front axle shafts. Any help would be appreciated.



Aaron

 

[DKarvwnaris]

It doesn't matter what direction the carrier spins. I am going to mount my current front ring gear on the ls carrier and reinstall to the the backlash spec. The ls will also work in either direction.



What I really need to know is ... are the carriers the same. Speciffically, are the bearings the same or can the correct bearings be pressed on and if the carrier will accept the front axle shafts. Any help would be appreciated.



Aaron

I seem to remember the deck height of the rear / front carriers ring gear flange being different if they are stood on their sides next to each other. I have never checked the axle spline count or diameter of the spiders to know that for sure.

For bearing #'s, check the tag # of the diff with a dealer, they can give you bearing #'s for it more reliably than you'll get here most likely.

I believe Genuine Gear has the bearing #'s listed in their install kits etc. You can find their # online or go through their parent company four wheel parts wholesalers. They have ads everywhere, kind of like fungus.

I am not a big fan of front limited slips as they tend to make steering intermittently unpredictable, I'd go for either an air locker or a Detroit style locker for hard usage.

If you're doing ring and pinions alot, you should a set of caliper to measure the deck height easy enough, I could be mistaken, but pretty it is different.

 

[DE Jeeper]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I will have to see if my local Dodge parts guy can help me out. I was hoping to get an aswere without having to take apart the diff, but that may not be possible.



As far as a ls for a front axle, for steet driving (I use mine as a tow vehicle) they are much better then a full locker like a Detroit or Lockright. The LS will still allow the front to turn in slippery conditions. Of cousre an ARB would be best, but I wasn't going to spend the $$$ on one.



Thanks,

Aaron

 

[rbattelle]

When you do this, try to take some pics. I think it's an interesting project.



-Ryan

 

[Tim]

I don't know, but isn't the front diff a "reverse rotation"? If so, then I wouldn't expect a rear diff to work up front... just a guess.



If it's not reverse rotation then I can't think of any particular reason it wouldn't work up front... just my opinion.



-Ryan

There really isn't any such thing as, "Reverse rotation. " The correct term is, "Reverse cut. " The gears still turn the same way, they're just cut in such a way that they're stronger when used as a front axle. If they were used in a rear axle, they'd be stronger in reverse.



Either way, with most axles (Dana 44 and 60 for example) the traction devices for a reverse cut high pinion axle are the same as those for the standard cut low pinion model. The Ford Dana 60 uses the 4. 10 and down carrier that fits every other 35 spline D60, it just happens to use it for all the ratios that are offered for it.



A carrier doesn't care what kind of gear you bolt to it, is basically what I'm saying.

 

[DKarvwnaris]

Thanks for the responses. I guess I will have to see if my local Dodge parts guy can help me out. I was hoping to get an aswere without having to take apart the diff, but that may not be possible.



As far as a ls for a front axle, for steet driving (I use mine as a tow vehicle) they are much better then a full locker like a Detroit or Lockright. The LS will still allow the front to turn in slippery conditions. Of cousre an ARB would be best, but I wasn't going to spend the $$$ on one.



Thanks,

Aaron

You are right about a LS for slippery surfaces, it will allow you to turn easier than a Ratcheting style locker like a Detroit etc, but it will also engage unpredictably when you are in a curve, forcing the truck to suddenly push forward as the tires can't rotate at different speeds like they need to.

Any vehicle that does not have locking hubs on it will do this, it is dangerous if you are on an on ramp or offramp at highway speeds. This was my reasoning for suggesting a ARB as a solution. Yes they are expensive, but they don't alter your steering characteristics on the street when its not needed.

My truck sees far too much pavement verses mud, ice, loose terrain to justify the few times a year I need to lock up all wheels. That's why I'll wait until there is either a hub kit like the jeep wranglers have now, or spit up the money for a ARB.



Both Limited slips and lockers can and will also cause more pronounced torque steer when in two wheel drive as one side will have more resistance on it as the short axle is connected to the carrier whether in 2wd or 4wd.

This also puts more wear and tear on the front driveshaft as it can spin from the locker's or limited slip's connection to the drivers side tire all the time.

If you go ahead with it, just try to remember the steering concerns until you get used to how much it changes the trucks turning characteristics. I wouldn't think twice in a primarily off road truck or work truck like on a farm for example. Please post any info you find on it, I am curious if it is the same bearing size etc. now that you brough it up.

 

[Yo Hoot]

Aaron,



Careful cause the trac-loc will lock on you in an instant. If you are in a turn and you gun it, it will lock. Doesn't sound like a good thing.



Good seeing you again today!



Mike

 

[DKarvwnaris]

Aaron,



Careful cause the trac-loc will lock on you in an instant. If you are in a turn and you gun it, it will lock. Doesn't sound like a good thing.



Mike

Glad someone else sees the danger this can cause as well.

 

[SVenable]

... Any vehicle that does not have locking hubs on it will do this, it is dangerous if you are on an on ramp or offramp at highway speeds. This was my reasoning for suggesting a ARB as a solution. Yes they are expensive, but they don't alter your steering characteristics on the street when its not needed.

... ... .

This is not quite what we experience in the Jeeping world. If the Front axle is not engaged you will never notice the locker or limited slip in the front axle. There has to be torque or power applied to the pinion gear to get the limited slip or locker to engage. We have been running Detroits, Lockrights etc in front axles for years with no adverse affects on the road. This is in axles up to Dana 60's in my prsonal experience. I have been running a Lockright in my Wrangler for 4 years and never had any problem on the road. The locker will not engage without torque applied to the pinion gear. One fof the neat things about the unit bearing design in the '04 is the reduction in moving parts and the less likelyhood of a maintanence problem.

 

[DKarvwnaris]

This is not quite what we experience in the Jeeping world. If the Front axle is not engaged you will never notice the locker or limited slip in the front axle. There has to be torque or power applied to the pinion gear to get the limited slip or locker to engage. We have been running Detroits, Lockrights etc in front axles for years with no adverse affects on the road. This is in axles up to Dana 60's in my prsonal experience. I have been running a Lockright in my Wrangler for 4 years and never had any problem on the road. The locker will not engage without torque applied to the pinion gear. One fof the neat things about the unit bearing design in the '04 is the reduction in moving parts and the less likelyhood of a maintanence problem.

Hmmm, funny, I guess the customers who complained when I worked at both Dick Cepek Off Road in Kearny Mesa, CA and San Diego FWPW were just nuts. Too bad one of them nearly killed me trying to show me how his wrangler would torque steer to the left or right depending if he was on or off the throttle. His jeep did it on an off ramp on the 163 north interstate and went straight down the grassy median instead of following the curve. I pulled the drivers side axle out and it was fine afterwards. We installed the Warn hub kits and it was back to normal a few weeks later with no steering issues in either 2wd or 4wd.

You can't lock up an steering axle with no hubs on it and expect it to have the same drag as the opposite side which is disengaged by the spline coupler in the intermediate shaft. Physics are not on your side when you do this, no matter what you do other than install hub kits. The limited slips will cause steering issues as they engage and disengage when in four wheel drive, my dodge hops and jerks in tight turns as it is when in 4wd and I have an open diff in the front.

If this has not happened to you yet, I hope it never does. It isn't an enjoyable experience, I wouldn't wish it on anyone to prove the point.

 

[SVenable]

Hmmm, funny, I guess the customers who complained when I worked at both Dick Cepek Off Road in Kearny Mesa, CA and San Diego FWPW were just nuts. Too bad one of them nearly killed me trying to show me how his wrangler would torque steer to the left or right depending if he was on or off the throttle. His jeep did it on an off ramp on the 163 north interstate and went straight down the grassy median instead of following the curve. I pulled the drivers side axle out and it was fine afterwards. We installed the Warn hub kits and it was back to normal a few weeks later with no steering issues in either 2wd or 4wd.

You can't lock up an steering axle with no hubs on it and expect it to have the same drag as the opposite side which is disengaged by the spline coupler in the intermediate shaft. Physics are not on your side when you do this, no matter what you do other than install hub kits. The limited slips will cause steering issues as they engage and disengage when in four wheel drive, my dodge hops and jerks in tight turns as it is when in 4wd and I have an open diff in the front.

If this has not happened to you yet, I hope it never does. It isn't an enjoyable experience, I wouldn't wish it on anyone to prove the point.

Torque steer is usually caused from the rear locker, since the inside tire on the rear is now the driving tire. Lockers are speed biasing and open diffs are torque biasing. I have no point to prove, only relaying my experience and others that run Jeeps and other vehicles both on road and off road. My front axle diff cannot lock up unless the front drive shaft is engaged and power is applied. Automatic lockers such as Detroits required power on the pinion to lock. I am also speaking about front ends that use unit bearings, such as the '04 Rams, not disconnect front axles.