Once and for all: Do TST boxes have TIMING??

[Marco]

RustyJC, GREAT MSG!!



I couldn't have it written that way, my english is way to poor...



Anyway I would like to point out that the timing retard for:



"Retarded timing at partial loads is, however, beneficial in reducing peak combustion temperatures and, therefore, NOx formation - probably the critical factor in factory partial load injection timing settings. "



is MUCH less than everybody seems to think or believe. That retard is within 1-2°! Not more!!!



So advancing the timing by 9° is toooooooo much.

Been there, done that, tested it, poor performance and engine overheating...



Marco

 

[RSnaith]

Originally posted by Marco

So advancing the timing by 9° is toooooooo much.

Been there, done that, tested it, poor performance and engine overheating...

So its your feeling, Marco, that a 9 degree timing advance at any time is too much? Keep in mind that I never stated the TST advanced timing to this degree everywhere, just at certain points in the map (which I will not divulge. If TST wants their maps known, they can post it here). Since a truck with a TST box on it does not suffer from poor performance or overheating, I would say that at some points in time (RPM, TPS, load, fuel temp, MAP, etc etc being right), 9 degrees is not detrimental, otherwise customers would have complained by now, and Mustang dyno charts would have shown some flat spots somewhere along the line.

 

[Marco]

Not my point

RSnaith,

What I say has nothing to do with the MFR's of fuelling boxes, even less with TST. I'm not saying anything pro or con the TST box like it seems you want me to.



What I'm saying is simple.



No major fuelling box that taps only into the fuel solenoid wire of the VP can alter the timing. No matter who builds it, the timing can NOT be altered there.



In this thread" Do TST boxes have timing?" it makes any further discussion about how much timing increase can be used, USELESS.



Respectfully,



Marco

 

[RSnaith]

Re: Not my point

Originally posted by Marco

1) I'm not saying anything pro or con the TST box like it seems you want me to.



2) No major fuelling box that taps only into the fuel solenoid wire of the VP can alter the timing. No matter who builds it, the timing can NOT be altered there.

1) Actually, Marco I do not want you to say anything pro or con about the TST box. You appear to be reading something into my posts that does not exist.



2) If you look back, you'll notice that I did not make any mention of specifically altering timing on that wire. I did ask if it could be done (which you've answered for me, thank you). However, if you were to inspect timing on a TST equipped truck for a given set of circumstances (load, RPM, fuel temp, etc etc) you'll see that timing on the TST equipped truck is different than what you would get with the same set of circumstances on a stock truck.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

Re: Re: Not my point

Originally posted by RSnaith



2) If you look back, you'll notice that I did not make any mention of specifically altering timing on that wire. I did ask if it could be done (which you've answered for me, thank you). However, if you were to inspect timing on a TST equipped truck for a given set of circumstances (load, RPM, fuel temp, etc etc) you'll see that timing on the TST equipped truck is different than what you would get with the same set of circumstances on a stock truck.

rod



you are contradicting yourself. there is no way you can change advances in timing with only a solenoid connection. if you agree it's not possible then how can you think it does? as marco said the only thing you can control with a fueling box is how long the solenoid stays open after the ecm tells it to open. i'm not sure but you might be able to retard the timing if you held it open long enough.



maybe mark can clear this up for us. but sense the fueling box's only input is off that wire it can only manipulate what is there, which is what the ecm is doing. with a timing box they can actually change what the ecm is telling the vp-44.



jim

 

[RSnaith]

Re: Re: Re: Not my point

Originally posted by CUMINNTSTRKN

you are contradicting yourself. there is no way you can change advances in timing with only a solenoid connection.

Actually, Jim, I'm not. I'm sorry, but I can't divulge what Mark has told me about the functioning of the box, however I suspect if Marco spends a little time thinking about it, he'll be able to figure it out.



Needless to say, if Mark Chapple and TST claim their boxes are offering timing changes that differ from a truck without a TST box in a given set of circumstances, you can be assured that you are being told the truth. Mark (and the others at TST) are stand-up fellows, and they don't need to mislead anyone, as they have a fine product that stands on its own legs.



(Note: I keep reading the above, and I just want to ensure that everyone understands the above has been written with no malice or defensiveness. Its difficult to communicate tone of voice or intent over the forums. )

 

[KLockliear]

I believe the computer looks at the end of the last pulse and then CAN determine to alter the timing for the next pulse based on the time differential between the last and next pulse.



That does not mean timing CONTROL, but timing change. It's relegated to the stock computer though.

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Wait a minute

Why does everyone run a timing box with the TST box then?? Isn't it a waste of money, now the over advanced timing will actually hurt horsepower.



We've tested it on the dyno, a VA box with just timing, no fuel increase, adds power to the TST box. Now either the TST box does not ADVANCE timing or the timing curve is very weak.



In theory it is possible to control timing with just tapping onto the solenoid, you basically ground the signal before the computer does and hope that it doesn't set a code. Like Keith said it would always be one revolution out becasue it would use the previous pulse as a basline for the next pulse.



Case closed... ... ... ... .

 

[RSnaith]

Re: Wait a minute

Originally posted by CRoth - BD-Power

Why does everyone run a timing box with the TST box then??



We've tested it on the dyno, a VA box with just timing, no fuel increase, adds power to the TST box. Now either the TST box does not ADVANCE timing or the timing curve is very weak.



Case closed... ... ... ... .

Not quite case closed, Christian. Not _everyone_ runs a timing box with the TST module, and in fact, this year we've attempted four EZ stacks with TST PM3s and PM3 Competition modules (TST did change programming recently), and found we lost power (dyno and seat of the pants). We saw a smoke increase, a bad rattle increase, and a loss of 2 - 4 PSI of boost. We haven't run a VA stack this year, however one of our dealers did stack a Puck with a TST and found he had more seat of the pants hp, however he hasn't hit a dyno yet.

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

I love the SOP (Seat of the pants) meter it has got to be the most accurate way to test performance products. Who needs to spend $30k on a dyno anyway.



I'm sure the guys at TST have a TDR membership, why don't they speak up.

 

[RSnaith]

Originally posted by CRoth - BD-Power

I love the SOP (Seat of the pants) meter it has got to be the most accurate way to test performance products. Who needs to spend $30k on a dyno anyway.

Christian,



I'm not exactly sure what I said to deserve the sarcasm, however, you will notice that I did mention the stack robbed HP on the DYNO and seat of the pants.



And, quite frankly, when testing a performance product, several tools must be used. Dynos (inertial and load), timing runs, gauge reads, loaded tests AND seat of the pants. The end result of building these trucks is to ensure customer happiness. If a customer's seat of the pants doesn't like something, then they aren't going to be happy with it. Drivability can not solely be measured on a dyno.

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Rod, I have a TST box right here, I'll dyno with and without a timing box and post the results. What firmware version do I need to have?



Why doesn't TST mention anything about timing on their website? I looked everywhere and only found mention of timing on the 12v and the Duramax box.

 

[scotty1]

HOLY DOODLE

This thread is hotter then my George Foreman Grill.



I have a TST Powermax 3 Comp box on my truck.

When I stacked it with an EZ I actually lost boost, had a sound like what I heard at Diesel Dynamics when Lawrence was testing units for his line of True Torque power modules. He explained this to me as too much timing and was addressing this before he released this product. I remember the sound very well. Perhaps I am describing it incorrectly as that was a few yrs ago.



I had less power when stacking the two boxes... but this is seat of the pants... real world, not dyno. Could this be that I have an ETH with stage 3's in my combination and that is why I got this symptom? At any rate the sound of the engine was harsh when stacked so I removed the EZ.

My boost went back up and my power was better.

I did not need a dyno to experience this. I'm simply stating what my experience was with stacking.



I think Keith did explain the timing issue quite well... at least it made sense to me. Is that a good thing?



What was the original intent of this thread?







:-{}

 

[HVAC]

TST & TDR

Christian,



Several years ago Mark (TST) did in fact post on the TDR. But only for a brief period. Mark had a problem with some stuff that was said on the forums, and Rob (who was running the site at the time) didn't feel the problem recquired his intervention. Mark evidently felt strongly enough about the problem that he has not posted since.



Case Closed

 

[BillGotthelf]

I talked to Mark this afternoon and asked him about "timing". He said that the PM-3 did effect timing as much as 9 degrees. However at full throttle and high rpm's it does not advance or retard timing. He feels that the pressures in the cylinder are high enough at that point. If you max out the fuel pumping capabilities (pressure wise) of the vp44 what else can you do?

 

[RSnaith]

Originally posted by CRoth - BD-Power

Rod, I have a TST box right here, I'll dyno with and without a timing box and post the results. What firmware version do I need to have?

Any firmware from a box after November, 2002 would be sufficient. Our test trucks were as follows:



1) 2001 ETH/DEE - TST PM3 Comp, DD3. 5s, KSB1, o-ringed head, 4 inch exhaust, Scotty 2

2) 2002 ETC/Auto - TST PM3, DD2s, stock turbo, 4", aFe MegaCannon

3) 2000 ETC/Auto - TST PM3, DD3s, HX40, 4", Scotty 2

4) 2002 ETC/Auto - TST PM3 Comp, DD2s and Mach 4's, KSB1B, 4", Scotty 2



The stack was done with a variety of Edge EZs (varying firmware, from 1. 5 years old to January 2003). The 2001 ETH was also stacked with a Bully Dog Torque Dog with even more rattle and an additional 1 PSI of lost boost. We never tried a VA or a Puck.



I look forward to your results, Christian. It'll be nice to have confirmation (or be proved wrong, either way).

 

[BillGotthelf]

Since you dealers enjoy testing components to give your customers the best, how about comparing different boxes on the same truck to see who really delivers the most power.

 

[Hohn]

YES!! This is *just* the kind of thread I was hoping for, with lots of information and education to be had. I appreciate everyone keeping it civil and hospitable.



I guess this leads me to other questions. Maybe Marco will help me here.



How does the ECM calculate injection point? What inputs does it use? Crank position? Cam position? Both? What is the connection between these inputs and the ECM? If we splice into this connection, can be manipulate the data, or only read it?



It DOES seem to be the case that the the timing can be influenced via the pump wire, just not in real time control. It would SEEM to be one injection cycle behind, as Christian Roth described.



That lag probable is insignificant since it's only one cycle behind and there are multiple injection pulses per second.



CROTH: If you do the stack, please let us know how it turns out.



Personally, I feel that my EZ is at the limit of timing that I wish to run. In combination with my DD2s, I am not comfortable advancing it further, and I doubt that there would be much to gain. The EZ is already pretty aggressive on the timing. I would surmise that a TTPM would perhaps work with the PMAX, since it is known to be tamer on the timing. Probably the same for the Van Aaken.



I personally feel that coordinating the different designs of two manufacturers is not a good idea. WHEN I get a fueling box, I will have to part with my EZ.



I wish Mark would/could be convinced to post on the TDR again. His expertise is a loss we ALL pay for. Perhaps another TDR casualty? Mark, Don M. , etc etc. Wish we (tdr) didn't have the attrition.



HOHN

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Originally posted by BillGotthelf

I talked to Mark this afternoon and asked him about "timing". He said that the PM-3 did effect timing as much as 9 degrees. However at full throttle and high rpm's it does not advance or retard timing. He feels that the pressures in the cylinder are high enough at that point. If you max out the fuel pumping capabilities (pressure wise) of the vp44 what else can you do?

This is great info, but what is high RPM? Let it be known that I am not taking away from the Mark's box at all. I think it is a great little unit, I am just trying to spread the knowledge.



For your info the VA does not alter timing between 2650 & 2850. This has been dyno tested and proven to be the best curve. If you take a look at the the dyno curve that Jim Fuller posted where was peak HP?, yup right in between that RPM window. Also the largest gain in timing comes in at about 2000 RPM.

 

[smittybuilt]

dyno results

i dynoed my truck about a month ago and i have a pm3 comp and i piggybacked it with a puck and these are the results:



without puck max h. p. 387

max torque 836



with puck on max h. p. 410

max torque 880







just my 2cents worth!!!