Opinion on eBay Transaction gone bad...

[jkalchik]

Best advice I can give is to go to court clean and neat. Jacket and tie won't hurt. And be NICE to the Court, they aren't your enemy.



Bring all the documentation that you have. And if you have the rims still in the packaging, bring it!

 

[EBottema]

Definately file a counterclaim. Check your local county clerk's website or office for rules and timeframe for filing/serving the counter, and also rules and/or guidelines that they have for your day in court.



Be organized. Make 2 copies + original (you keep originals and one copy for judge, one for the dirtbag). Put the documents into a presentation format, and buy a cheap binder (at least for the judge's copy). Approach it like it's your high school term paper! Divide the presentation into claim and counterclaim. Highlite key points. Number each page. Type up a cover page summary describing the timeline, your efforts at resolution, and each piece of supporting evidence you are presenting. Emphasize the deal you thought you had. You will blow away the judge.



Also contact your credit card company and get an exact status on the chargeback. Let them know what is going on. My guess is that if nothing has happened yet then Paypal is accepting the chargeback. The seller has no say in defending it - that's Paypal's call.



BTW did you "verify" your Paypal account with your bank account? Like cap-n-cray said, if you read the fine print when you agreed to their service, you allowed them free access to take your money. This is why I never verified my account, and also refuse to sell anything on ebay either. I'd talk to your bank and close that account, or at least open an new one, keep both open, and move your funds out of the account Paypal has access to .



Take the rims to court with you (in case the judge orders them returned). Leave all but the one with the most damage in your truck and take the worst one into court. Have pictures of all the rims/packaging etc. in your presentation package.



Good luck.

I talked to the credit card company and they told me different things. One said the chargeback becomes final in 90 days, one said it never becomes final. I'm going to have to call back again obviously. The seller did forward a email from paypal stating that "We want to inform you

> that despite our efforts the buyer's credit card company decided in favor

> of the buyer. By accepting the terms of the PayPal User Agreement, you

> agreed to accept the decision of the issuing bank as final and legally

> binding for this type of dispute. Unfortunately, we do not control the

> outcome of the chargeback decision reached by the buyer's issuing bank. "

The credit card company never required that the product be shipped back, that tells me that by using paypal, he has to listen to the credit card company, any ideas on that?



I like you ideas about the folder, thank you so much, that will work out great and I will be sure to do it... Yes, i am verfidied with paypal but I don't think there will be a problem but you never know w/ paypal... .

I think im also going to try and get him on the notion that he wanted the wheels back and wanted to keep the insurance money... . I'll try to get something fred fed ex... .



Thanks

erik

 

[nps]

I talked to the credit card company and they told me different things. One said the chargeback becomes final in 90 days, one said it never becomes final. I'm going to have to call back again obviously. The seller did forward a email from paypal stating that "We want to inform you

> that despite our efforts the buyer's credit card company decided in favor

> of the buyer. By accepting the terms of the PayPal User Agreement, you

> agreed to accept the decision of the issuing bank as final and legally

> binding for this type of dispute. Unfortunately, we do not control the

> outcome of the chargeback decision reached by the buyer's issuing bank. "

The credit card company never required that the product be shipped back, that tells me that by using paypal, he has to listen to the credit card company, any ideas on that?

The chargeback really only becomes final by the statute of limitations on a court case challenging the decision. However in this case, it sounds like Paypal has given up, therefore you are safe. FWIW, Paypal could continue to challenge the bank decision many, many times if they wanted to. Make sure you check the business day before the court hearing just to make sure there are no last minute shenanigans that the judge needs to know about.



If Paypal has given up, then they probably won't go after your bank account either. But be forewarned if they do.



The last advice I'd give you is to think about the counter claim, what you are seeking, and prepare your wish list for a settlement to present to the judge. Back up what ever you ask for with paper - what you think doesn't matter, what you have incurred as expense (or can estimate to incur) is far more powerful. Right now, you have the wheels, your money back, and you can't claim your time off from work as an expense. So a counter claim is really weak IMO.



I think you may be positioned better in the court's view NOT to file a counter claim - don't make out to be like you are an antagonist. Go in with your docs well prepared, put on a conciliatory attitude, and summarize at the end of your presentation to the judge: "I made an offer to pay $235 to keep these damaged goods, but what I got in return was the summons to appear before this court. Given the current status, what I would like to do is keep the wheels and have them repaired, at my expense, for all the inconvenience "the seller" has caused this court and myself. I received damaged goods and the cause of the damage is between "the seller" and Fedex. "The seller" can recover any damages he feels he has unjustly incurred from Fedex. "



If you can back up the cost to repair with a written estimate around $400-$450, you hit a homerun.



My prediction (if you maintain your cool, don't interrupt the judge or the seller, and let yourself be interrupted by the judge and the seller if they are so inclined-never try to talk over them) is the judge will ask you to pay the seller somewhere between $0 and $235 depending on how much of an a-hole the seller is in court and how much of a repair estimate you can produce.

 

[guava]

The last advice I'd give you is to think about the counter claim, what you are seeking, and prepare your wish list for a settlement to present to the judge. Back up what ever you ask for with paper - what you think doesn't matter, what you have incurred as expense (or can estimate to incur) is far more powerful. Right now, you have the wheels, your money back, and you can't claim your time off from work as an expense. So a counter claim is really weak IMO.



I think you may be positioned better in the court's view NOT to file a counter claim - don't make out to be like you are an antagonist.

I'm having a hard time understanding this. I thought the purpose of filing a counter claim, in this case possibly a malicious prosecution claim was to keep jerks like this from using the court system as their own personal weapon.



Why is lost wages not considered in a counter claim. IMO, all you have to prove is a loss. Whether it be lost wages or just in the form of an accounting of time used to deal with this idiot. Time = money. Lost time = lost money. Therefore idiot caused a loss because you spent time dealing with him that you'd otherwise have been doing something else with.

 

[nps]

I'm having a hard time understanding this. I thought the purpose of filing a counter claim, in this case possibly a malicious prosecution claim was to keep jerks like this from using the court system as their own personal weapon.

A counter claim is a way to make the process more efficient. Same issue, similar evidence, one shot and everyone gets their 'day in court'.



So what's the claim you recommend - he's got all his money back, he's got the wheels, what? punitive damages? Not in most small claims courts although I have no experience in Cali. That's why I told him to check with the court clerk on all the rules.

Why is lost wages not considered in a counter claim. IMO, all you have to prove is a loss. Whether it be lost wages or just in the form of an accounting of time used to deal with this idiot. Time = money. Lost time = lost money. Therefore idiot caused a loss because you spent time dealing with him that you'd otherwise have been doing something else with.

You hit the nail on the head here. If they allowed it, then everyone would claim that their full time job was preparation between summons and court.



I don't make the laws, just have to live by them like everyone else.

 

[EBottema]

Update::



I just recieved a letter in the mail from a legal service company retained by the seller today.



here are some interesting parts of the letter: "You have failed to return the wheels, defaulted on the agreement and they demand the return of the wheels immediatly. As a result, the client has filed suit in the court. " This is the part I dont get----> "At this point it is advisable to mitigate further damages to (seller). Your further delay will result in increasing damages beyond the court costs. Please direct furthr correspondences regarding this matter to the (seller) at the above address. This firm's involvement in this matter ends with the writing of this letter, unless otherwise directed by the (seller). "



The attoney service is Davis Miles PLLC (providing a variety of legal services)

This sounds like just a prepaid demand letter, what do you guys think? Can I be also taken to civil court at the same time?



Thanks

Erik

 

[guava]

Certainly a standard of reasonableness needs to be adhered to.



A day off for court only occurs because the guy filed the claim initially.



If I had to spent an hour making copies, making calls, standing in line at the courthouse, etc. , I would consider that a cost to me. There are lots of ways to count that kind of stuff.



When i work on call now, there is a minimum 3 hr cost. Otherwise it just isn't worth my time to drop everything for someone else's crisis. That makes people think about whether its really important to have a solution right now or wait tile normal business ours.

 

[guava]

Update::



I just recieved a letter in the mail from a legal service company retained by the seller today.



here are some interesting parts of the letter: "You have failed to return the wheels, defaulted on the agreement and they demand the return of the wheels immediatly. As a result, the client has filed suit in the court. " This is the part I dont get----> "At this point it is advisable to mitigate further damages to (seller). Your further delay will result in increasing damages beyond the court costs. Please direct furthr correspondences regarding this matter to the (seller) at the above address. This firm's involvement in this matter ends with the writing of this letter, unless otherwise directed by the (seller). "



The attoney service is Davis Miles PLLC (providing a variety of legal services)

This sounds like just a prepaid demand letter, what do you guys think? Can I be also taken to civil court at the same time?



Thanks

Erik

Your are in civil court. My opinion is this is a bluff to add weight to his words because there isn't any lawyers allowed in small claims court. he also may be trying to pad his bills to go for a higher amount. It doesn't change the claim or the circumstances.

 

[nps]

Update::



I just recieved a letter in the mail from a legal service company retained by the seller today.



here are some interesting parts of the letter: "You have failed to return the wheels, defaulted on the agreement and they demand the return of the wheels immediatly. As a result, the client has filed suit in the court. " This is the part I dont get----> "At this point it is advisable to mitigate further damages to (seller). Your further delay will result in increasing damages beyond the court costs. Please direct furthr correspondences regarding this matter to the (seller) at the above address. This firm's involvement in this matter ends with the writing of this letter, unless otherwise directed by the (seller). "



The attoney service is Davis Miles PLLC (providing a variety of legal services)

This sounds like just a prepaid demand letter, what do you guys think? Can I be also taken to civil court at the same time?



Thanks

Erik

Sounds like a prepaid legal service. Most courts require a demand letter be sent to the defendant at least 2 weeks before filing. If the seller did not previously and formally, in writing demand the return, then this is suspiciously worded to 'clean up' that little foo-pah. BTW, generally email is not considered in writing, US Mail is, and preferably Cert Return Receipt US Mail.



Unfortunately, procedural technicalities are not given the weight by small claims courts as they are in circuit or district courts. If you try to argue them, the judge may think that you are being a smart-*** lawyer wanna be.



Document this event on your timeline, explain to the judge that you previously offered to return the wheels at the seller's expense, then subsequently agreed to a resolution and requested payment instructions. Next you receive a summons followed by the sellers written demand to return the wheels.



What it sounds like is that things may be getting crossed in the mail. You said you agreed to $235, but never heard back from the seller. How much time between that conversation/email and the summons?



If you have documentation on all this back and forth correspondence, then I believe you are safe and the judge is going to think the seller is crazy - worst case you pay $235 and keep the wheels or give them back on the courthouse steps.



If you want to put this all to rest, then write the seller a letter acknowledging the receipt of his demand letter AFTER the summons, summarizing the timeline and all the events, and offering a reasonable resolution that includes him dropping the small claims court action. Give him 10 days to respond in writing or tell him you will see him in court - use his rent-a-shyster's letter as an example but put the detail in just as you would tell the story to the judge. Send it CRR US Mail. One of two things happen, 1) he sees his weak case and agrees to the resolution, or 2) judge will be blown away by the seller's ignorance and gross waste of everyone's time when he reads your letter as a part of your evidence package. This letter should tell your whole story stand-alone, and all you need to do in court is ask the judge to spend a few minutes reading it. If he does agree to drop the case, ensure you check with the clerk 2 days before the scheduled date to make sure it happened.



Don't talk to the seller on the phone or by email going forward - letters only.



I stand on my earlier recommendations regarding the counter claim - what are your damages?

 

[EBottema]

That is what I thought it might be a prepaid legal place. I highly doubt the seller would be allowed to collect other damages like pain/suffering etc. kind of how the letter stated. Basically the seller told me in the beginning I needed to deal with fedex, after being unable to do that since fedex only deals with the shipper, I filed the chargeback. First of all, the packages were not packaged correctly and to fedex specs. The guy at fedex even said that. Plus, any check paid by fedex goes to shipper and the seller said he would only trade money for wheels. I didnt like how he did not want to help me at all. I mean I bought a product, it was damaged and that claim money is mine to pay to either replace the wheels or repair them. That money is not his.

After the chargeback, the seller called fedex and they agreed to pick the wheels up on their dime. However, I told him no, I bought the wheels, they were mine and since I have all this time I want to atleast have something to show for all that time spent. However, I said in many emails I am willing to pay you for price for them minus the repair costs which you can recover from fedex. We argued about this for a week or so over emails, he finally called me and my mom spoke with him since I was not here. She talked about paying 235 and he was nice about it and said that we could work something out like that... I emailed him my final letter and offered him the 235, fedex could come get them for free, and he could recover the rest from fedex. I even stated if he got more than the 200 bucks from fedex, I had no problem him keeping the extra money for his time! Geez, I was being nice! That was around may 15th. The lawsuit was filed may 19th, i recieved the summons on may 31st, and the demand letter on june 3rd.



Basically he had a trick up his sleeve, he wanted those wheels back and then he was going to try to get free money from fedex on that claim. I would be out time and gas money and he would have the wheels back and free money!



Should I go talk to the judge before hand? I did not know that was allowed. Basically, my damages are 15+ hours of phone calls/emails, and dealing with this and 4 trips to fedex (60 miles total)... . 3 of 4 wheels on the bead are gouged and scratched up pretty good. The bead wore through the cardboard of the box and got messed up. It should have been packaged better basically.

 

[nps]

After the chargeback, the seller called fedex and they agreed to pick the wheels up on their dime.

Well that little detail is pretty significant and erodes your whole position. An outsider will look at it as you've got your money, the wheels, and refuse to either pay for them or release them.



Did a quick look - your sig says Glendale which is in LA county. They have a website here that also lists an info number.



More information is available here .



Unless the seller wants to come to LA, your best bet is to settle the thing before you get to court. If you get to court, the judge may order you to return them at your expense in addition to assessing you the court fees.