Overheating issue ??

[CSilkowski]

I'm started experiencing the same symptoms with my truck. First 100k was fine - gauge never moved north of the 200 mark. Now when pulling hills it will creep past the second 0 but then cool right back down after cresting the grade. Using my Smarty, I noticed I had triggered the fan clutch code so replaced my fan clutch but still not helping and still do not hear my fan engage. Yet, I'm not getting the code anymore. So... new fan clutch, no code, fan still not engaging, and temperature continuing to creep past the second 0. One thing that helped was using the timing option on my Smarty. It appears the advanced timing has improved my engine temps but not addressed the root cause.



I've changed my anti-freeze every 50k and used distilled water so I'm doubtful it is the radiator. I'm thinking my issue is with the TIPM or ECU. Since I don't have the diagnostic tool, I may need to take to the dealer to troubleshoot

 

[rashwor]

Take a infrared temperature gun and shoot the radiator and trans cooler / lines. I did notice that both that are having the issue are automatics.



My $0. 02

 

[JDubien]

Actually my truck and CSilkowski's truck are both 6 speed manuals so I don't think that has anything to do with it. It's interesting that I'm not the only one, although equally frustrating.

 

[cerberusiam]

I do not understand why the temp gauge in the dash never moved more than the width of the needle for 100k + miles and now all of a sudden its moving 3/8" to 1/2" when towing.

Have you had it a dealer lately that would coincide with the gauge movement changing? Did they flash it and tell you, flash it and not tell you? If it went to a service department I would not bet against an update being done without your knowledge. Depends on just how particular they are.



Keep in mind what you are seeing on the AutoIngenuity software is what the ECU sees, not neccessarily what the gauge portrays, or what the actual temp is. That is a really good diagnostic tool but it is limited to seeing the same things as the ECU, you still need to verify actual temp becuase sensors can failing and not be noticed.



The dash gauge is not correct, get used to that. It is set by the ECU to what the software designers THINK the operator is expecting to see. It is a representation only and subject to code engineers whimsy, cluster controller, and cluster controller interpretation of an ECM signal on ne of the first uses of CAN bus in these trucks.



Think of it this way, Alpha product running on a Beta platform. Its 3 years and 4 revisions away from being a solid product. If its close you got a winner.



Get a manual gauge and see what the coolant temp is actually doing under a heavy load then worry if needed. At this point it could be a battery getting weak causing all your issues. :-laf

 

[Bob4x4]

Radiators do loose their ability to cool as well as when they were new,towing grades with a trailer running the smarty on 9

210 is not abnormal coolant temp with the 600 series engines and the fan clutches NEVER lock up 100 % or freewheel 100% they don't publish the true range.

 

[Bob4x4]

Have you had it a dealer lately that would coincide with the gauge movement changing? Did they flash it and tell you, flash it and not tell you? If it went to a service department I would not bet against an update being done without your knowledge. Depends on just how particular they are.



Keep in mind what you are seeing on the AutoIngenuity software is what the ECU sees, not neccessarily what the gauge portrays, or what the actual temp is. That is a really good diagnostic tool but it is limited to seeing the same things as the ECU, you still need to verify actual temp becuase sensors can failing and not be noticed.



The dash gauge is not correct, get used to that. It is set by the ECU to what the software designers THINK the operator is expecting to see. It is a representation only and subject to code engineers whimsy, cluster controller, and cluster controller interpretation of an ECM signal on ne of the first uses of CAN bus in these trucks.



Think of it this way, Alpha product running on a Beta platform. Its 3 years and 4 revisions away from being a solid product. If its close you got a winner.



Get a manual gauge and see what the coolant temp is actually doing under a heavy load then worry if needed. At this point it could be a battery getting weak causing all your issues. :-laf

There was a flash for improved fan strategies released way back,maybe 06 or so. If he has a Smarty he would already have that. If a dealer would have flashed his truck with the smarty installed he surely would have noticed that

 

[JDubien]

Bob4x4- I didn't mean to mislead anyone if I did. I run on smarty #9 empty or towing light (flatbed trailer). I pull my fiver on smarty 3 w/timing. Its the only way to keep my egt's in check with my configuration. I've been doing this since I got my smarty at about 40k and for over 60k miles haven't had any issues until recently and I cant even really say I'm having an issue yet. What you say about the fan clutch lock up sounds accurate based on what I observed with the AE software and I'm thinking the clutch fan may be working as it should but wont know for sure till i hook up my fiver again in a couple weeks to monitor its performance again.



Cerberusiam- I've been fortunate and haven't had my truck in the dealer since nearly new for some warranty stuff, I'd say since 2007 to maybe early 2008. I had the broken HVAC door warrantied. It was before I got my smarty for sure. I certainly understand the AE software limitations and is only reading from the same sensors the ecu does; I was mainly just trying to verify fan clutch function in real time in relation to engine load. I've heard and agree the dash gauges are not real accurate(ie: oil pressure joke) and have learned to accept that. What I'm struggling with is the sudden change in readings for whatever reason. I have been wondering if by chance when I updated my smarty that this is one of the small changes that came with it. It's my understanding that Marco includes updates from Chrysler into his updates and possibly this is a new Chrysler change making the gauge more reactive than it used to be. I'm fine with that if I knew that to be true. My dad has an 07. 5 with the 6. 7 and says his temp gauge reacts like mine does now and he says his has been that way since new so it's a possibility(he pulls heavier than I do). I do plan on installing a secondary temp gauge at some point. Bottom line is gauges are just there to help you notice when something is different and that's all I'm doing is noticing. Hopefully this is a simple ecu update because my truck still performs great and suits my needs.

 

[cerberusiam]

I have been wondering if by chance when I updated my smarty that this is one of the small changes that came with it. It's my understanding that Marco includes updates from Chrysler into his updates and possibly this is a new Chrysler change making the gauge more reactive than it used to be.

That is highly likely. Do you remember what release you updated the Smarty with, and, did the update coincide with the gauge operation change? It sounds like that is what you said, just wondering if that is definitive.



Yes, Marco has to include the releases from Dodge into his for the stock software othwerwise you get the Softwre Unknown errors. There is quite likely something new out there or just got included in the Smarty.

 

[JDubien]

Unfortunately I can't remember the release I used(I'm out of town) but I know I updated smarty last year and it was last year when this issue started happening. When I updated smarty and when I realized the temp climbing was far enough apart that I didn't put the two together, plus who'd think the two were related anyway. It hit me last night while discussing with my dad that its likely a software change since his truck reacts this way since new. It's so annoying that our gauges simply show us what the engineers want us to see, not necessarily whats real.



Dad still throws it in my face that he wishes I never told him his oil pressure gauge wasn't much more than a dummy light

 

[JDubien]

Update

Hey Guys,

Sorry for my delayed response to this issue but my stay in Flagstaff went from a month to over three. . anyway. I was finally able to pull my toy hauler with the AE software connected. Of course the information given is all based on the vehicle sensors and on board computer output. I noticed several items but mainly how hot my coolant is getting and that the fan clutch seems to be working as it should.



Bottom line is this, I used to be able to pull this particular grade with my toy hauler fully loaded and the temp gauge would barely move (and I could pull it 80 mph if I wanted to). Now, with the toy hauler having about 3000lbs less weight, basically empty, I found my speed limited to 65 and the temps running in the high 220's.



At a couple points it even crested 230. Interesting thing about that, when the temp reaches 230, the dash temp gauge jumps all the way over to the red line giving the impression its running 245. The simplest solution to control this during the situation was to back off the throttle and drive according to the temps, similarly to driving by the pyro gauge when running hard. As soon as I crested the grade, temps drop back to normal. To keep temps below 230, I ended up slowing to 55mph by the top of the 6% grade.



I like the AE software, it lets you choose what you want to see for example on the screen in the picture from top left to right are coolant temp, fan speed, fuel pressure, calculated engine load, percentage of fan lock up, air intake temperature.



Short of installing a separate coolant temp gauge, I'm not sure whats going on. Looks like I'll be taking another trip up to Flag again next week. I plan to pull off the road this trip and take some temp readings with my laser temp tool when things start getting hot. I suppose several options exist to be suspect. A stuck tstat even though its new and a cummins stat. My radiator may need to be cored, I'm not sure why as it was clean when I serviced it (flushed and new coolant). I'll let you guys know how this situation progresses. Let me know if you have any suggestions or ideas.

Thanks,

 

[cerberusiam]

Do yourself a big favor and install an analog temp gauge to make sure the electronic readings are correct. Everything on the dash and AE is subject to what the ECU is deriving by converting an analog signal from the temp sensor to a digital signal for processing and smoothing. Too many places for readings to get messed up. The old analog gauge is still the best diagnostic device available.

 

[Kirwin]

My coolant temperatue observations while towing

Jdubien. I have Cyberdyne gauges for oil pressure, coolant temperature and and a switchable one for transmission/transfer case/rear differential temperature. I am currently at 79,825 miles on my 2003, and like you, I change my coolant per the service manual. In 95 F ambient temperature, pulling my travel trailer which weights 12K lbs with my 10. 5K lb truck up a 6% grade will cause coolant temeptature to increase from nominal towing temperature of about 208-209 F (this temperature shows up on the factory gauge as one needle width below the 200 F tick mark) to the high 220s (which is about 2 needle widths above the 200 F tick mark). If I have power enough so that I can stay in 6th gear (NV5600), I can easily exceed 230 F on anything greater than about a 6% grade, if I can maintain 6th gear. I find that most times I will not be able to maintain speed and I will be forced by engine RPM to shift to 5th (this results in about 2400 RPM and 60 MPH) temperature will remain above 220 but will not climb any higher. I also find that the fan "lockup" happens about 214-218 and is not always that noticiable over the engine noise at 2400 RPM, and is barely noticiable if the engine has slowed, due to load, to 1800 RPM or less where I shift to 5th. I find the most noticible time to hear the fan lock up is 5th gear climbing with high engine RPM. I can hear the fan roar come and go every few seconds but actual temperature as indicated by my Cyberdyne gauge does not change noticiably during these episodes. Crest the top of the hill though and temperature plummetts all the way down into the 190-195 F range.

The software actually lets you see what is commanded by the ECM on the computer screen. I think that could be a very useful tool. Ken Irwin

 

[CSilkowski]

Thanks JDubien. I'm watching this thread closely as my truck is experiencing similar symptoms.

 

[JDubien]

Thanks for the information gentleman, Im looking into the aftermarket temp gauge so I can see what's really going on. I towed back up to Flagstaff again this week and was able to pull over at one point to check temps with my laser temp tool. Although the truck cooled down some by the time I got the hood open, the tstat housing still matched the AE software reading within a degree. I plan to install an analog gauge and report back.

Thanks again!!

 

[CSilkowski]

Thanks JDubien. I'm watching this thread closely as my truck is experiencing similar symptoms.

My symptoms were resolved by replacing the thermostat. For once, it was a quick and economical solution.

 

[DaveHess]

I read this thread with great interest today. My 03. 5 just this summer started doing the same thing you guys are all writing about. This truck would run with the needle either straight up through the 200 or just a hair past the straight up position when pulling loaded (17,080 GCW). Empty is never an issue at all. Anyhow, I replaced the t-stat with a new and tested Cummins piece, replaced the cap, flushed the coolant system 5x (until the color coming out of the radiator most closely matched an un-opened container of distilled water) and refilled the system with G-05 coolant. Then went on a road trip with the kids to Denver. The truck almost ran constantly with the needle over the first zero and occasionally push to the second zero. Never higher. Two things of interest. When I stopped at rest areas, I would leave the truck running and open the hood. Do my business and when I returned the temp was always back to normal. The second thing was I removed the Cummins t-stat and put my "hawaiin stat" back in. The truck took longer to get hot but she eventually still did. Same results as with the t-stat installed. I know part of that heat was probably due to very little restriction to water flow with the missing stat. BTW, following the CO trip, I had p0483 (Fan Speed Rational). I don't remember who, but someone posted out here in TDR land some factory troubleshooting for the P0483 code. My T-shooting caused me to believe a clutch failure. So I did the "knee jerk reaction" and ordered the fan clutch, belt tensioner, pulley, and HD belt. Of course now in ND, towing season is over. One last item is I added a Bull Bar to the truck last April. I refused to believe that was causing enough of an airflow restriction to cause this problem. Maybe I am wrong. I am going to pull it in the Spring of 2013 and tow. I am betting my problem is still there. And I forgot to mention, my coolers appear to all be very clean and clear. It sure behaves like an airflow issue but I cannot find evidence to prove it. Keep the ideas coming.

 

[JFought]

Dave
i am running slightly hot as well.
Visually all the coolers look clean
As previously talked about before, the radiator often plugs up with bugs and dirt not visible while in the truck.
I am sure that you and i have first and dust in the fins and that affecting the cooling efficiency.

I have made a little air blower and blew all kinds of crap out (even though it looked fine). But it didn't make much difference.

 

[LNaugle]

does your fan sound like a tornado when it is overheating? possible original fan clutch going out? I would deffinetly listen for that and if you decide to replace only use factory or Hayden clutch and read up on the break in process.

 

[DaveHess]

We did have a few days warm enough at the end of September/beginning of October that were warm enough to run the A/C. I did hear the fan out there howling. This is where I have my issue. Why did I get a P0483 code (no CEL) in the first place? According to the troubleshooting guice, that code is set when the ECM commands the fan clutch to engage and fan is either below 75 RPM or above 4,000 RPM. I pulled the connector apart that is located at the bottom of the radiator and cleaned it with electrical contact cleaner. The code has not returned since this maintenance action took place at the end of July 2012. When I am towing or running down the Interstate, I generally cannot hear the fan engage. I hear it most often when idling like at a stoplight. As I read through the posts, nobody came out and said whether the fan will engage at highway speeds or not. I saw where someone mentioned that a fan does nothing at speed since airflow through the radiator is at highway speeds anyway. This where my dilemna lies. Because the truck at idle such as coming off the Interstate and sitting in a rest area, will cool right down to normal (just below the 200 mark) but run above that point while running at say 67MPH (where I tow at-1900 RPM) and it will climb up past the 200 mark. Never high enough to set the CEL which I believe comes on at 232 degrees (???). All of this just screams airflow problem to me. So I am back to my Bull Bar or dirty coolers. BTW, I bought the OEM Vistronic Fan Clutch. Have not installed it yet.

 

[cerberusiam]

Replace the fan clutch. They will do just as you describe at hiway speeds. The fan enages but not enough, the fluid coupling breaks down and it will not pull enough air to cool the engine in load conditions. No codes and will even make noise at slower speeds but it won't engage hard enough to pull air at speed.