p-pump and injector conclusion

[Reb.B]

Hi, my name is Reb, and I have been searching like a bandit to get the corret info on our p-pumps and injectors. I've come across a lot of contradictory information and would much appreciate any help from people who know about these pumps and injectors. The main purpose of this thread is not to start a p-pump fight, but to gain info on the heart and brain of our motor. Thanx a bunch in advance!



The first question is about the p-pump, I've been told that the 160, 180, and 215 pump cams are all the same with the same bosch numbers. Is this true?



Can the fill rate in the pumps be changed by shimming something in our pumps?



Is there an upper helix in the 215 hp pump?



What is the part number on the marine pump with the 13mm plungers?

 

[Reb.B]

rest of the question

sorry i got cut off



what is the correct part number for the right marine 370 injector?



are the 300 injectors worth buying?



Thanx again and i hope we can learn from this and lead us all in the right direction, Reb

 

[SlyBones]

300 hp injectors are not worth buying. I hear the spray pattern or something to that effect is not ideal for these engines. Same for 230 injectors. -- I have noticed on Piers site that he only sells 215 and 370 injectors, not 230 or 300 injectors.



Order your 370's from Piers. They will be the right ones. Dont know the part number.



Dont know any of the other questions either. I just wanted to put in a plug for PDR.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I have the 300 injectors..... they suck.



Piers said the marine pumps (and all 5. 9 and 8. 3 liter engines with the p pump) have 12 mm plungers. The 13 mm are supposedly from a completely different engine.



I don't see how shimming anything could change the fill rate. You could slightly increase fill TIME by shimming all of the barrels up some, but that would mess up the timing of the individual cylinders and retard over all timing a lot, and might further limit the fuel that the pump could move. I don't think that is much of an issue on pumps other than the 160 until around 3400 rpm.



According to the timing chart on piers's website the cams at least have the same lift rate, but on a timing chart in the tsb section of this site, it shows different lift rates. According to Piers's site, the slope on the pumping/pressure side is the same: 5 degrees of crank rotation for ever mm of lift. According to the other timing chart the 215 pump cams have 5. 55 degrees per mm of lift, and the others have 6. 667 degrees per mm of lift. So according to Piers, they could have the same cam. According to the other table this is not possible. I can't say for sure one way or another. At least the 160 pump definitely has a different cam with less fill time.



215 pump has one helix just like the others. However, the top of the plunger is not flat, and varies the timing. I "think" (jmo) it retards timing by about 5 degrees just after about 1/4 throttle on a stock truck. On a bombed truck, after 40 hp or so I would think it would go to the retarded timing. However the fact is that the 215 pumps DEFINETELY retard timing with much of a load. There is some debate as to weather the timing actually gets back to the advanced state it idles at. IMO it does not.

Chris

 

[J@NWC]

Your best bet is to call Piers (one of the 12valve gods) all of your questions will be answered correctly, and any parts will be the correct ones, and who knows you might learn a few things you had'nt even thought of



866-888-9396 toll free (might even save a buck or two )

 

[SlyBones]

CC,



I dont know where the other timing charts came from. The one on Piers site is from a Bosch manual for our pumps. I compared it once to the one on Fritzs ram page and I thought it was really close. The TSB information on Fritz site was worded a little different but essentially says the same thing.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

http://dodgeram.org/tech/tsb/1996/18-11-96.htm



According to that chart a manual pump has 5. 555 degrees per mm of lift and an auto has 6. 6667 degrees. According to Piers's chart they are all 5. That makes one of them wrong. Which one I don't know.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/timing.htm



Here is another one that is different from Piers's. It matches the one above, but the auto chart is off a half of a degree.



edit- those two are probably from the same chart. I don't know which is correct piers, or this other one.

 

[Reb.B]

thanx guys

i called piers and he was busy egtting ready for Muncie and didn't really have time to talk. I was wanting to get some of these questions answered and put on the web some people can look back and go "OH, thats how that works". Piers told me that the 215 pump has twin helix and others have toldd me that the 215 pump advances it self. Thats why u don't have to run as much static timing. Piers says that the 160 cam has to be reground and the 215,180, 175, don't have to be until u get to the 550 rear wheel hp trucks. Now this is where it gets confusing, Joe D says 633 hp out of a pump with no mods other than gov springs and cam plate, hmmmm. I'm not doubting Joe at all, just confuses things up in my head a little. I'm sure somebody out there has the correct 370's out there and would like to give the part numbers,lol. Piers was busy, and didn't have them handy. My professor, fellow student, and i are running a few tests on the 370 vs 215 injectors and going to run a few tests on the different pumps. Oh, on the size of the plungers, i was told that a marine version had the 13mm, and a japanese company built a 14mm that will fit. so, again, any answers will forsure help, thanx again, Reb Oh, any diesel freeks in the area of Fresno, feel free to get ahold of me, all the work is going to be done at Fresno State.

 

[Todd T]

the 370's on Piers' shelf are tip #5969 if that helps.

 

[Don M]

rebram,



The 215 pump uses a what is traditionally called a single helix, but it has two of them opposing one another 180 degrees.

Im sure this is what Piers was referring to.



There is no way to shim anything for more pump fill time. Fill time is determined by the cam profile and a censored modification or two.

Larger plunger and barrels do not always equal a ton more power in a stock pump. I hear that Piers has had good results with them in his 160 RACE pumps.

The 370's are stronger over stock 215's in HP.

There is a lot more to the 215 pump than most others have discovered yet.



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Don- I sure wish you would "fess up" so all of us people that are in the dark could figure out why the 215 pump is better. The reason I wanted a picture of the plunger is so I could look at the angle of the helix and measure (best I can from the pic) how deep the helix goes from the top of the plunger.

 

[Reb.B]

thanx don. I really appreciate the info, i was getting worried that some of the p-pump questions were going to go unanswered. Any help is a HUGE step forward in the right dirrection. I looked at a plunger out of a huge mercedes (i think) and it had the helix on both sides of the shaft in the plunger. This is what u are talking about right? Oh one other thing, can one advance the cam inside the pump, thanx again, reb

 

[cumminsgetme]

Don- I sure wish you would "fess up" so all of us people that are in the dark could figure out why the 215 pump is better.

CC- I went 446HP with a 175 pump then the next day went 476 with a 215 pump. The pumps were set up almost identical... ... it was a direct comparison. Neither pumps were "maxed" out however both were supplying plenty of fuel. Straight up 30HP. That should be enough to gather an opinion... ..... it was for me anyways.



-Cord

 

[Reb.B]

k, we have figured out that the 215 will make the extra HP over the 175, 180 pump, now need to ask, "why and what parts in the 215 pump make this happen. " Both pumps have 12mm plungers. Correct me (please) if i am wrong, but the 215 has two helixs (180 degrees apart) on each of the six plungers, and the 180, 175 pumps only have a single helix. This helps in fuel delivery and advance, right(in the 215 pump that is)? Are the delivery valves the same in the 180 and 215 pumps? Lets keep this going and get this figured out, thanx again, reb

 

[Don M]

All the pumps have two opposing helix's on their plungers.

The DV's (181's) are a bit larger in the 215 pump. As compared to the 160 and 175,180 pumps (131's, 161's, and few 180 pumps have 181's)

The DV's are not the reason for the extra HP potential of the 215 pump.

The timing can be advanced in all pumps if this is what you are asking. You are advancing the pumps cam when you do this.



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

My 180 pump had . 181 delivery valves stock, but it still stumbled quite a bit even with just the 215 injectors... ... ..... I wish I still had those ones.

Chris