P7100's, turbo's and Injectors!

[Jim Fulmer]

jimk and I talked for 2 hours on the phone today about all these topics along with transmission's but that is another :-{} thread, so let's see what you'll have to say about these things and no transmission's here.



Jim

 

[Don M]

P7100= 913

Injectors= Anything from DD

Turbo= Something Holset



Don~

 

[SlyBones]

well I will bite. what is a 913, and a 911 and I dont mean Porsche. How does that relate to a 160, 180, 215 pump?

 

[Cummins Corvette]

The 911 is one of the 180 pumps and the 913 is one of the 215 pumps.

 

[SlyBones]

And stock the differences are? Whats missing here?



- Different cam

- Plungers and Barrels

- Fuel Plate

- Delivery valves ( some 180 pumps only had 151's ?? )

 

[Cummins Corvette]

The two 911 pumps that I have taken apart both had . 181 d-valves and they both stumbled. The only 913 I have taken apart was stock and it had the . 191 valves in it already. The 913 has different plungers and barrels although all p7100 pumps used on the ctd have 12mm plungers. The 913 actually retards timing at a certain point in rack travel. The reason that more power can be had out of a 913 is because the helix is steeper so it yields more fuel for every degree or plunger rotation than a 911 plunger. They may have slightly different cams, but only the 160 pumps have any disadvantage in this area. The 160 does not have enough fill time for high rpm use.

 

[Don M]

When setting the timing on the P7100 pump you use a DV replacement guide that aligns the dial indicator with the exact center of the plunger. The exact center of the plunger is also the lowest point of the plunger.

Once the timing is set at a static point with the dial indicator measurement there is no way the plunger can retard timing any lower than what you have it set at. If you have it set at 16 BTDC then you get 16 degree timing as the lowest possible setting at any time during rack travel. Remember that the protrusion on the plunger does not have to be completly used in order for the barrel to begin to build pressure faster. In other words even a small amount of the protrusion being used will still in effect cover the spill/fill ports faster and hence advance the timng to some degree.

There are a bunch of differences in the 913 pump as many will discover if they ever disassemble one.



Don~

 

[Jim Fulmer]

So what is Piers's pump cam doing, is it just filling more or is it more in-depth than that. And what is the engine cam doing does it have duration/lift and overlap or what, In gasser turms is it a 108 duration or a 116 like most turbo motors.



Jim

 

[Todd T]

i would suspect he is using overlap to keep combustion/cylinder temps up. we all know HEAT is a diesels best friend. since there is nothing you can do to raise the heat of the fuel. the only thing left is to keep some of the heat from the previous cycle. after all you are decreasing backpressure at the same time (longer exhaust cycle with less exiting). this would be evident in increased engine coolant temps, if anyone would dare to compare.



the stock (engine) camshafts have been made of Chilled Ductile Iron since 94. so the only other benfit of a marine cam is the larger (longer) gear bolt. the tappets are also hardened in stock form.



I asked Piers this past weekend about his Cam and he just kinda smiled and said "its for sale, and theres one in this truck" he is doing an exchange of your cam and tappets. i was just lucky i drove the Suburban to Muncie



turbo= i got two words for you, ball bearings

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Anyone know what what pump this one is?



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1834848419

 

[Strick-9]

Don,



If you don't quit spreading false information about these pumps, I think you're going to drive me nuts. We covered this very topic during our last discussion, but obviously you didn't get it.



Pictures help people understand so I drew up this little cartoon to help explain why it doesn't matter where the dial indicator is on the plunger.



#ad




Notice that both plungers are exactly the same height although the reading is taken from different spots on the plunger.



The reason it doesn't matter where the dial indicator touches is because we zero the indicator at the lowest position. From that point we measure a CHANGE in lift.



-Chris

 

['956Wheel]

S9, Is right. Unless the pumps pistons are rotating, they don't, the sleeves do, travel of the indicator is the same. Now, Don does have the numbers for timing, the big green book is NFG. I timed to the green book and the neighbor thought he should call the fire dept... ... RETARDED... the timing and the green book!



Mike



P. S. Timing is the relation of TDC (engine) to fueling (pressure). Greater volume of fuel=advanced timing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Strick-9

Don,



If you don't quit spreading false information about these pumps, I think you're going to drive me nuts. We covered this very topic during our last discussion, but obviously you didn't get it.



Pictures help people understand so I drew up this little cartoon to help explain why it doesn't matter where the dial indicator is on the plunger.



#ad




Notice that both plungers are exactly the same height although the reading is taken from different spots on the plunger.



The reason it doesn't matter where the dial indicator touches is because we zero the indicator at the lowest position. From that point we measure a CHANGE in lift.



-Chris

Chris,



After the timing is set at say 16 degrees the plunger cant retard the timing. Go back and read my post.



1) I said the lowest part of the plunger was in the center. Which it is!

2) I said the timing cant be retarded by the plunger (if it is set from the center position)

3) Further I said the DV replacement guide is centering the dial indicator, which it is.



Where is the mis-information? Its not there Chris. You are not reading my post. Oh and Chris, the plungers in the 913 do advance the timing. You can agree or not. I dont care. Once you pull a plunger you will see what I have been trying to explain to you for two weeks now. The helix from the 913/887 is not the same as the helix from the smaller pumps and it has two different helix designs on both sides of the plunger. Please pull a plunger out and look for yourself before you begin telling me I am spreading mis-info.



Don~



edit- if the 913 is so close in power to the other pumps why cant anyone break 500HP with one? The 913 has gone 600 plus. Does not not show a marked difference in the pumps?

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Here we go again... ... Look- will any of you just go out and buy a timing light and one of the diesel adapter dodads and put this to rest? Don- to put it in your words the plunger does not retard timing, mmmkkaaay???? The timing is stuck where it is, K? It advances it at idle and puts it back where it was after the rack passes a cirtain point in it's travel. Are you happy now? OK?

Chris (just poking fun at the situation!)

 

[Strick-9]

Don,



This is what you are wrong about.

2) I said the timing cant be retarded by the plunger (if it is set from the center position)

What if it is set from one of the protrusions? Can you not understand the picture? It doesn't matter where the dial indicator touches.



Are these simple concepts really above your head? That's what makes these discussions so difficult.



In our last pump discussion, I'll admit, I tried to cover too much material too quickly. But then I backed up and tried to take very small easy to digest steps. At that point, emotions were too high to continue.



Now I've waited for emotions to settle ( I thought) and drew this picture.



If you can't understand this simple picture, I don't see how you can pretend to understand what's going on inside a pump.



-Chris

 

[Don M]

Chris A,



That is basically what I have been saying all along.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Chris S,



How can anyone set the pump timing from the off center position? You cant unless you are not using the proper tools.



You see, the dial indicator is centered with the delivery valve replacement tool. The tool is threaded into the barrel and is always centered over the plunger. Which is also the lowest point on the top of the plunger.



Nobody can measure from anywhere but the center of the plunger Chris. Unless, like I said you are not using the proper tools. It is always centered and hence at the lowest point on the plunger. There is no way that your drawing is correct. You cant get the dial indicator to be off center to measure the protrusion like your drawing shows.



Like I have said, the plungers can NOT retard the timing, EVER!!



Please explain to the members how the heck you could ever manage to measure plunger lift off-center with the Miller or Snap-On timing tools. Im waiting for this!



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Don, Chris, it's ok. You're both right, but can't understand eachother's way of saying it.



Don says- the plunger advances the timing at idle... .



Chris says- the plunger retards the timing at anywhere but idle...



What niether of you are working out is weather the timing spec is for degrees of advance when the "protrusions" are in-line with the ports, or when the "groove" is in-line with the ports.



I think that would be something worth finding out. We know the specs are different between the the 215 pumps and the others.

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

Don, Chris, it's ok. You're both right, but can't understand eachother's way of saying it.



Don says- the plunger advances the timing at idle... .



Chris says- the plunger retards the timing at anywhere but idle...



What niether of you are working out is weather the timing spec is for degrees of advance when the "protrusions" are in-line with the ports, or when the "groove" is in-line with the ports.



I think that would be something worth finding out. We know the specs are different between the the 215 pumps and the others.

Chris A,



Don never said the plunger advanced the timing at idle. Don maintains the plungers have an inherent advance built into the plungers that can be used to increase performance over the "other" pumps.



Chris S,



you should remove that silly picture of being able to get a timing reading off-center of the plunger. Here is a picture that shows how rediculous that claim is.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=1527&width=4



For the others: The dial indicator is inserted into the delivery valve replacement guide to center it over the plunger. You can see the DV guide with the brass thumbscrew on the side.

The guide is threaded into the barrel. On the left of the picture you can see the lower portion of the plunger. This entire set-up is centered dead in the middle. The dial indicator is touching the exact center of the plunger in the picture. Unless you had a very bent dial indicator you could never measure the off center of the plunger. If it was bent too bad, the indicator would never get through the centering hole anyway.



There is no way to measure lift from the side or off-center of the plunger.



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

:-{}

:-laf



On edit;

Chris, please quit wasting page space with this type of post. it makes the thread hard to follow.



Thanks,

Todd