P7100's, turbo's and Injectors!

[shendren]

who's jimk?

 

[Jim Fulmer]

jimk is Jim Killen from Electra Tx, we were chewing the fat on the phone Sat.



Did I start this thread



Did you know I like everybody



Jim

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I wonder what would happen if Don and Chris actually posted useful info instead of :-{} . You're never going to convince eachother, ever.



Don- how about a picture of the side of the plunger I've been asking for? I'd like to see the angle of the helix, and the distance from the top of the plunger to the full fuel end of the helix. If we could compare that to a plunger from a 911 we might learn something.

 

[Don M]

Strick-9 wrote: "What if it is set from one of the protrusions? Can you not understand the picture? It doesn't matter where the dial indicator touches. "



Chris, what if it is set from a protrusion? It cant be.



Strick-9 wrote: "Are these simple concepts really above your head?"



Chris, your simple concept is not a concept at all. It is a manufactured idea fom thin air. You cant measure from the side of the plunger were the protrusions are located.



Strick-9 wrote: "If you can't understand this simple picture, I don't see how you can pretend to understand what's going on inside a pump. "



Chris it is a simple picture. So simple in fact, it cant be done.

Once the delivery valve guide tool is threaded into the barrel the center line of the plunger, barrel, DV tool and dial indicator are perfect. There is no way the lift can be measured from the side of the plunger. It always lines up with center.



Don~

 

[Don M]

Originally posted by Cummins Corvette

I wonder what would happen if Don and Chris actually posted useful info instead of :-{} . You're never going to convince eachother, ever.



Don- how about a picture of the side of the plunger I've been asking for? I'd like to see the angle of the helix, and the distance from the top of the plunger to the full fuel end of the helix. If we could compare that to a plunger from a 911 we might learn something.

CC,



No useful info??? Chris should not need to be convinced of anything. The plunger can only be measured from the center of its top. Period! Unless you are not using the proper tools and the dial indicator is somehow in at an angle.



The helix design on the 913 plunger is different than the other pumps. The angle in degrees of the helix is not much if any different thant he other pumps.



The 913 is still the king so far. It has made the most power of all the other pumps. Does it not seem like the better pump to use.



Chris Strickland, You, Cord Reynolds, and others to name a few have all invested money in getting a 913 pump. Why did you do this? IF the notion that the 913 pump retards the timing who the heck would want that for performance? Its a simple answer, it does not do this.



Don~

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Don, that's right. No useful info yet. I want you do describe the sequence of events that occur in an injection cycle. That will help everyone understand the train of thought that you are so firmly planted on.



Here is a version of the pic that I posted last time.

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/displayimage.php?&photoid=1528&width=3



The circle represents the spill port. I am thinking that in order to EVER acheive enough much plunger rotation to get back on the protrusion, that it would require some serious rack modifications. Therefore it only gets advanced at idle/low throttle. That's what Chris S. and I are thinking. What the heck are you thinking?

Chris

 

[drawson]

Don quit :-{} with Chris and Answer the PM I sent you a week ago will ya... .

 

[Don M]

Dee,



Ooppps! I forgot.





CC,



I guess we are back to agreeing to disagree. Get yourself a plunger and barrel from a 913 and you will see.



Don~

 

[Animal]

Plungers can retard timing.

Originally posted by Don M

Like I have said, the plungers can NOT retard the timing, EVER!!



Don~

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement, it may be correct in reference to the PE-pumps on the Dodge Cummins but it’s not all inclusive of the PE pumps. You can get plungers that retard timing on the PE pumps.



The book I have references three versions of pump plungers; they are lower helix, upper and lower helix, and lower helix with starting groove. Below is a quote from the text on “Plunger Versions”.



" Special requirements calling for the reduction of noise or exhaust emissions for instance, dictate that some form of load-dependent start-of-delivery (port closing) is provided. Plunger versions which in addition to the lower helix also have an upper helix permit the start of delivery to be adjusted as a function of load (fig. 9). In order to improve the starting performance of certain engine types, special plungers are used which have a special starting groove. This starting groove is machined into the plunger's top edge and is effective only when the plunger is in the start position. It results in a start of delivery which is retarded by 5 ... 10 degrees relative to the crankshaft setting. "



Now I'm not saying our pumps have this feature, but your statement said (the plungers can NOT retard the timing, EVER!!) is incorrect.



This isn't a flame on anyone, just something that needs to be known.

 

[Don M]

Animal,



You are correct. I was speaking of our injection pumps for the Dodge/Cummins applications though.

They do not have a starting grove. The marine pumps are the most prevalent with this feature. A few weeks back me and the Chris's went through this as well.



Factory timing on many marine engines is around 18. 5 degrees BTDC. The starting groove helps of course for ease in starting by retarding the timing a few degrees. This starting groove is in the cold start region of rack travel when the rocker travels under the cam plate.



Unfortunantly the book does not show the 913/887 215 hp plungers. If it did have an illustration it would make it easier to see what I am talking about.



Don~

 

[Strick-9]

Chris Anderson,

Right on!

What niether of you are working out is weather the timing spec is for degrees of advance when the "protrusions" are in-line with the ports, or when the "groove" is in-line with the ports.

That is what I'm trying to get to with Don. I was trying to take small steps towards that very topic. Don seems to think if the dial indicator is in the groove then the timing is more retarded than if it is measured from the protrusion. But the fact is that has nothing to do with it. The answers to your questions are in the timing charts.



Don,

You're good at repeating yourself and saying nothing at the same time. Do you remember talking to me at Speedworks at the first dyno day we had there? Do you remember talking about timing pumps and uncomfortable you were with the procedure? Do you remember telling me that if you moved the dial indicator just a little, the reading would jump up and down? I thought you knew even back then that the tip of the indicator is riding up and down the protrusions as the dial indicator is moved.



Yes, the timing tools center the dial indicator in the bore, but the gauge can be wiggled to ride the plunger at different locations.



Don, yes I bought a 913 pump. Cord also got a 913 pump. I'm not going to put words in Cord's mouth, but I can speak for myself. I felt conned. I too had heard that the pump advanced timing. That's definately something I wanted. You can imagine my surprise when I popped off the DV's and saw that timing is retarded from the idle setting as rack travel increases. That was definately a shocker to me. I was told I would be able to pull higher rpm without the annoying popping of the small pump. I COULDN'T. I was told it wouldn't have the 1200 rpm stumble associated with the 370's. IT DOES.

The funny thing is we are both working on setting up our small pumps to put back on. But you don't know that yet. Another 'interesting' tidbit of info was Piers calling me and telling me to not get rid of my small pump because we will use it later. But you didn't know that either.



Animal,

FYI, my personal pump (913) retards the timing from the idle position for starting purposes and then advances the timing at idle.



-Chris

 

[Extreme1]

My turn!

:-{} #@$%!



Thanks, I feel better.



FWIW, I timed my pump WITHOUT the special tool. Was the dial indicator PERFECTLY parallel with the plunger travel? Nope, but it was within 2 degrees! (the amount the average person can gauge without alignment tools) Care to calculate the variation in lift and resulting change in timing in degrees if my indicator was off 2 degrees?



I placed the tip of the indicator on the raised section because it was larger and easier to hit. The small depression in the center was too close to the size of the extension on my indicator and gave inconsistant results when I was indicating the stock setting.



So there!



What was the topic of this thread again?

 

[LSMITH]

Re: My turn!

Originally posted by Extreme1

:-{} #@$%!



Thanks, I feel better.



FWIW, I timed my pump WITHOUT the special tool. Was the dial indicator PERFECTLY parallel with the plunger travel? Nope, but it was within 2 degrees! (the amount the average person can gauge without alignment tools) Care to calculate the variation in lift and resulting change in timing in degrees if my indicator was off 2 degrees?



I placed the tip of the indicator on the raised section because it was larger and easier to hit. The small depression in the center was too close to the size of the extension on my indicator and gave inconsistant results when I was indicating the stock setting.



So there!



What was the topic of this thread again?

Oh oh, I am sure that is not the approved method. Did you read the thread? It is impossible to do without the special holder. Oh man I hope you did not hurt the pump, maybe someone could help?

Sorry, just had to laugh, anyone that has ever been around machinist tools knows you do not need the "holder" to get the right measurement.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I ***PERSONALLY*** think that the "groove" is there for emissions reasons. We all know that if you retard the timing as load increases that it will lower the NOx levels. This is because the maximum combustion temps are lower when the timing is retarded.



I think the 913 CAN deliver more fuel because the helix is steeper, allowing more fuel to be pushed for a given amount of rack travel. I haven't compared the two plungers side by side so I don't know that is the reason for sure. If I am right, then the total maximum time of port closure would be more with the 913. Don hasn't been too eager to post a pic of one looking strait at the helix, and this is why I wanted to see one. I think Don would rather be shot than admit he is wrong on the timing issue.



Now I DO think that a special plunger could be made to advance timing with RPM and have that advance be MOSTLY independent of load. That is just a little theory I have been kicking around in my head though, nothing concrete yet.



Chris

 

[CPFF]

Timing ?

Geeezzz Why not keep it simple and just use a timing light??

Has anyone timed their pump with the indicator and then with a timing light to see if they came up with the same degree reading?

CPFF

 

[Cummins Corvette]

That's a good idea. I have been wanting to get one of those piezo adapter things and a timing light, but don't have the funds for it. I don't even have the tools to set the timing yet. I wish someone would do that.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Originally posted by Strick-9

The answers to your questions are in the timing charts.

That would only be the case if the barrels and the total height of the plungers are the same. I can't say one way or another. If they are, then the spec is for the retarded timing or the "in the groove" timing.



edit- they would need to have the same cam as well. According to this table they don't.

http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/FAQ/timing.htm



The 215 pump has a steeper lifting lobe.

 

[Rammin On]

 

[CPFF]

Timing

I can bring a light with me to the Columbus Rally. If anyone has used the indicator method and has a TDC pointer, we could check it there. It only takes a couple minutes.

CPFF

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I just thought of something else. Oo. :-laf



It might be a GOOD thing that the timing is retarded with a load on the 913. That way you could put around with ridiculous timing and get good mileage, but it would retard the timing instead of blowing head gaskets when you stomp on it. Unfortunately the high rpm still suffers. Mebby if we DID find a way to get it back to the ridiculous timing at 100% rack travel like Don suggested (I still think it would require some serious rack mods) and find a way to ONLY use it at really high rpm, the head gasket would be safe, we would get the advantage of timing advance for fuel mileage (at low rack travel), retarded timing at medium rack (save the head gasket), and advanced timing at FULL throttle again for the high rpm.



Whoa... . that's way out there in left field isn't it... ... ... . :-laf



Just food for thought.

Chris