Payload vs. Axle load

[ACerf]

I am thinking of getting a truck camper. I started to do some research on what the Payload Rate was for my 03' 3500 was 3300#. But after doing some weighting and substracting I came up with a net payload of 2650#. If you take a look at the camper market, you quickly realize that there isn't much out there that will go on this truck, especially if you want a slide model! But my other puzzler is the Axle load weight. The truck has a 4600# front and 6150# rear. That totals up to 10,750# which is quite a bit more than the 9900# GVW. Where does the Axle load rating come into play? Does this mean that the 3300# really doesn't mean anything? I am quite confused!



I had someone tell me to get a late model Ford! I told them I would push my Dodge before I would drive a Ford!

 

[Road Dog]

The GVW factors in everything including the frame and brakes. The GAWR is just the axle and springs. If you dropped a load on or behind the rear axle then you could hit the axle limit before the GVW.

The Diesel adds weight -- which takes away from the payload -- so yes, most modern campers will overload a SRW Diesel. Gassers do better since they have little engines.

 

[HBarlow]

The manufacturer's "payload" and "trailer towing weights" are just hype for the brochures. As you learned, they are inaccurate and misleading.

The 6150# axle weight comes into play because it is the true limit of weight your rear axle can carry based on physics, not DOT laws. It is based on the weight your rear tires can actually handle safely.

Yes, you figured it out. The 3,300# payload figure is nothing more than advertising hype. It is meaningless because nobody carries a load with a base truck with no driver, no fuel, no tools, no spare, and no accessories. Actual load weight limits are determined the way you did it. You actually considered the rated limits of each axle, the actual scale weight of your truck, and the estimated weight of a camper.

But it gets worse. No slide-in camper actually weighs what the manufacturer says it does when it is loaded on your truck. The mfr's rated weights are estimates for base models with no optional accessories (air conditioner, generator, etc. ), no LPG in the tanks, no water or waste in the tanks, no food, bedding, clothing, camping/outdoor gear, weapons, etc. A "2,650#" slide-in camper will probably weigh 3,500# when loaded on your truck and ready for a camping weekend with your family, maybe more. And we haven't added your wife's weight and the weights of the average two or three children yet.

You've just stumbled onto the reason so many of us own Ram duallies and won't own anything else. The ONLY thing a dually can't do that a SRW truck can do is fit in a standard sized garage or fit between two narrowly spaced trees. There are many things the dually can do that a srw can't. Carrying a heavy slide-in camper is just one of them.

I'll sit back and chuckle now and wait for all the enraged comments from the srw truck owners who love to pretend their trucks can do anything a dually can do.

The 9,900 lb. GVWR may result from smaller brakes but it really doesn't matter much for your situation. The true limit of your truck's ability to carry the load you want to carry is the rear tire/rear axle carrying capacity. If you exceed that you will be risking a tire failure which could result in an overturned truck, severe damage, and injuries with a tall load like a truck camper. A tall slide-in will make your truck handle awful as well. The heavy load is mounted high and will cause lots of sway and leans.

You can increase your truck's actual (but not rated) carrying capacity with a set of four 19. 5" wheels and G or H rated tires. An aftermarket anti-sway bar and a set of airbags or Timbrens would help also. Most state DOT officers will consider your tire capacity when determining if you are overweight but some states like KA, NY, and MA might use the GAWR printed on the decal on your door post.

The truth about the slide-in truck camper industry is they are all too heavy for the trucks that carry them unless you find an older, smaller, simple slide-in built in the '70s that has no slide-outs or rear overhang. The big fully equipped Lance slide-ins weigh at least 4,500# and overload the duallies that carry them. Duallies are safe enough though because of their four rear tires which provide about 12,000# of carrying capacity on the rear axle.

 

[Bill Stockard]

(snipped) The big fully equipped Lance slide-ins weigh at least 4,500# and overload the duallies that carry them.

Loaded with a 11' 6" Lance slide-in camper with all the additional factory options including a slideout, my truck scales over the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) by 600-lbs when loaded and ready to go including me, my wife, and the weenie dog, but well within the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) on both the front and rear axles. Is my truck overloaded?



Bill

 

[HBarlow]

Loaded with a 11' 6" Lance slide-in camper with all the additional factory options including a slideout, my truck scales over the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) by 600-lbs when loaded and ready to go including me, my wife, and the weenie dog, but well within the Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR) on both the front and rear axles. Is my truck overloaded?

Bill

Bill,

From a GVWR "rated" weight perspective that the republic of KA might enforce or some rare DOT officer in the rest of the nation might enforce, yes, technically your truck is overloaded because gross weight exceeds factory GVWR.

In my experience, since your use is strictly non-commercial private owner activity you should rarely if ever come under the scrutiny of DOT officers. However, from time to time we read articles in RV publications or general media suggesting that state legislators are aware of all the money they are leaving lying on the highways of their states due to overloaded RVs. The current administration, if unchecked, would eventually focus their greedy, beady little eyes on the RV industry and attempt to regulate it out of existence by claiming overloaded RVs present a huge threat to the Yugo and Prius driving crowd.

I don't know about your licensed weight. I assume you registered your truck for 14,000# or at least enough to cover your gross weight.

The internet weight police always claim that in the event of a major crash with significant property damage and injuries, perhaps even loss of life, a jury in some jurisdictions might assign blame and responsibility for operating in excess of GVWR. A slimy trial lawyer representing the family of someone who was injured would surely think of that. I think that a courtroom loss is possible but a fairly remote risk. I would not want to test the system in an area such as Austin, TX or along the TX/MX border where the politicians have (D) behind their names.

In the realm of actual or safe weight, you and I both know your truck is not overloaded. Four Michelin rear tires rated at about 2800# each in dual configuration, Timbren donuts, and an anti-sway bar combined with your conservative driving style and experience with trucks probably make your rig safer than many of the load carrying trucks any of us see on the highways every day.

If I was going to haul a big slide-in like yours I would own a Ram 4500. A Ram 4500 would have a 16,500 GVWR and I expect it would ride and handle very well with your Lance resting on the rear axle.

 

[SierraRam]

Harvey, dualies can't go through a car wash

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey, dualies can't go through a car wash

Ooops! You're correct. I forgot that one. I do grumble a little on cold wintry days when I have to wand wash it in the wind.

There is another one I failed to mention. Duallies often don't merit the approval of wives the first time the husband broaches the subject. Mine threw a fit back in '01 when I told her I was going to buy a dually. After considerable "discussion" of the subject I granted her an exemption. I told her she wouldn't have to ride in it. Now that I'm on the third one, an even uglier flatbed, she has forgotten her objections and has even driven it once or twice.

 

[macdaddy]

Great Posts Harvey!!!!!!



Wives and Dualies!, Who wears the pants?. Im on my second, dualie that is!!!!.



But seriously.



I went through the slide in camper/SRW stuff back in 1994 when I had a GMC 2500. RV Dealers should be shot for the stuff their selling uninformed buyers. Also anyone who wants to consider a slide in camper should be responsible too.



Get the dualie and be done with it. SRW's are for those wanting to tow trailers with light pin weight or TT's.



Mac

 

[RustyJC]

Actually, my wife found and bought our first dually (a new 1996 V-10 47RE) while I was on an international business trip. I got back into town Friday night and we picked it up at the Columbus, OH dealership Saturday morning. She said the salesman didn't know how to deal with her (he kept saying, "Shouldn't we wait until your husband can look at it?") and really freaked out when she asked to test drive it. He got over it, though, when she pulled out her checkbook. :-laf



I guess I'm lucky. She loves the new one and would just as soon drive it as her Toyota Highlander - I have to tell her that it's not good for the truck to just drive it 2 blocks to Kroger's and then back home. She even pulls the 5th wheel with it and does a good job, something she has done but hated to do with our previous 2002 HO/6-speed dually.



Rusty

 

[GAmes]

Harvey, dualies can't go through a car wash

Not true. My duelly goes through the same car wash that my wife's car goes through, and more often too. It is in the side yard, equipped with a bucket, wash mitt and garden hose, sometimes operated by a grandchild:-laf

 

[Bill Stockard]

Not true. My duelly goes through the same car wash that my wife's car goes through, and more often too. It is in the side yard, equipped with a bucket, wash mitt and garden hose, sometimes operated by a grandchild:-laf

Yep, the same car wash I use, sans the grandchild... don't have any with no prospects in the future. :-laf



Bill

 

[Grizzly]

My wife drives my dually with our, then, 11'-3" Lance camper and our, now, 27' Arctic Fox 5er about half the time when we travel. She can handle that truck as well as anyone and loves to drive it. I think she has a little diesel in her blood.



george

 

[Road Dog]

But it gets worse. No slide-in camper actually weighs what the manufacturer says it does when it is loaded on your truck. The mfr's rated weights are estimates for base models with no optional accessories (air conditioner, generator, etc. ), no LPG in the tanks, no water or waste in the tanks, no food, bedding, clothing, camping/outdoor gear, weapons, etc. A "2,650#" slide-in camper will probably weigh 3,500# when loaded on your truck and ready for a camping weekend with your family, maybe more. And we haven't added your wife's weight and the weights of the average two or three children yet.

[/QUOTE]When I was looking at new campers the manufacturer's sticker by the back door listed the actual weight -- including propane & water. Different than the brochures of course but closer to reality.



Older trucks did better. The 9,900 GVW 1T SRW (and 8,800 3/4T) was around for a long time while the curb weight went up and the payload went down.

 

[ACerf]

Bill,



From a GVWR "rated" weight perspective that the republic of KA might enforce or some rare DOT officer in the rest of the nation might enforce, yes, technically your truck is overloaded because gross weight exceeds factory GVWR.



In my experience, since your use is strictly non-commercial private owner activity you should rarely if ever come under the scrutiny of DOT officers. However, from time to time we read articles in RV publications or general media suggesting that state legislators are aware of all the money they are leaving lying on the highways of their states due to overloaded RVs. The current administration, if unchecked, would eventually focus their greedy, beady little eyes on the RV industry and attempt to regulate it out of existence by claiming overloaded RVs present a huge threat to the Yugo and Prius driving crowd.



I don't know about your licensed weight. I assume you registered your truck for 14,000# or at least enough to cover your gross weight.



The internet weight police always claim that in the event of a major crash with significant property damage and injuries, perhaps even loss of life, a jury in some jurisdictions might assign blame and responsibility for operating in excess of GVWR. A slimy trial lawyer representing the family of someone who was injured would surely think of that. I think that a courtroom loss is possible but a fairly remote risk. I would not want to test the system in an area such as Austin, TX or along the TX/MX border where the politicians have (D) behind their names.



In the realm of actual or safe weight, you and I both know your truck is not overloaded. Four Michelin rear tires rated at about 2800# each in dual configuration, Timbren donuts, and an anti-sway bar combined with your conservative driving style and experience with trucks probably make your rig safer than many of the load carrying trucks any of us see on the highways every day.



If I was going to haul a big slide-in like yours I would own a Ram 4500. A Ram 4500 would have a 16,500 GVWR and I expect it would ride and handle very well with your Lance resting on the rear axle.

When I bought my 03' SRW I did so because I was hauling Fifth Wheel. I did not want a Dually then or now! I perfer the SRW for towing my 34' fiver. I have never had a problem with; wind, wandering, poor handling (even when I had a tire failure on the trailer), easier to park, better turning radius, better fuel milage and less money for tires down the road. A fact; SRW can actually tow more then the dually. I Have hauled 3 axle trailers with no problem. I also like having the truck in the garage. So if you all are saying that I can not get a camper on my truck I guess I need to do something else. I did find a camper made in Canada made by Westland. With a Slide it weights in a 2160# (less options) which is pretty good. I know that with the options and other stuff I will be over the 2650#, but atleast I wouldn't be grossly over weight. Oo.

 

[ACerf]

But it gets worse. No slide-in camper actually weighs what the manufacturer says it does when it is loaded on your truck. The mfr's rated weights are estimates for base models with no optional accessories (air conditioner, generator, etc. ), no LPG in the tanks, no water or waste in the tanks, no food, bedding, clothing, camping/outdoor gear, weapons, etc. A "2,650#" slide-in camper will probably weigh 3,500# when loaded on your truck and ready for a camping weekend with your family, maybe more. And we haven't added your wife's weight and the weights of the average two or three children yet.

When I was looking at new campers the manufacturer's sticker by the back door listed the actual weight -- including propane & water. Different than the brochures of course but closer to reality.



Older trucks did better. The 9,900 GVW 1T SRW (and 8,800 3/4T) was around for a long time while the curb weight went up and the payload went down. [/QUOTE]



The 2650# is the net weight. That is the truck weighted with fuel, tool box, fifth wheel hitch, two people and one small dog. That was the truck weighting in at 7250# substracting the 9900# gave me the 2650#

 

[champspa]

yes , they can go through some car washes at least the older dually can but I measured the thing first .

 

[RustyJC]

A fact; SRW can actually tow more then the dually.

Since the manufacturer's fictitious "trailer tow rating" is calculated as GCWR - truck's curb weight, and since the SRW is lighter than a DRW truck, the "trailer tow rating" may well be higher for the SRW truck. However, the "trailer tow rating" ignores the GVWR and rear GAWR limitations of the SRW truck. Although, based solely on the "trailer tow rating", the SRW truck might be able to tow more, the DRW truck can carry more, and with a heavy 5th wheel, the pin weight transferred to the truck is a major consideration. Invariably, when pulling a 5th wheel, a SRW truck will exceed its lower GVWR long before it reaches the manufacturer's "trailer tow rating. "



Rusty

 

[Grizzly]

When I bought my 03' SRW I did so because I was hauling Fifth Wheel. I did not want a Dually then or now! I perfer the SRW for towing my 34' fiver. I have never had a problem with; wind, wandering, poor handling (even when I had a tire failure on the trailer), easier to park, better turning radius, better fuel milage and less money for tires down the road. A fact; SRW can actually tow more then the dually. I Have hauled 3 axle trailers with no problem. I also like having the truck in the garage. So if you all are saying that I can not get a camper on my truck I guess I need to do something else. I did find a camper made in Canada made by Westland. With a Slide it weights in a 2160# (less options) which is pretty good. I know that with the options and other stuff I will be over the 2650#, but atleast I wouldn't be grossly over weight. Oo.

Towing a 5th wheel or a TT and hauling a Truck Camper are two different things. You can tow a lot of weight with a SRW, but hauling a lot of top heavy weight can be a nightmare with a SRW. I know I did that with an F250 Furd gasser with a 10. 5' Travel Queen camper in my early days. Even if you have the GVWR to support a loaded camper ready for travel, you still have the top heavy weight that tends to sway, which will give you white knuckles. I wouldn't haul any camper larger then the truck box with a SRW, but that me. I expect some rebuttal on that.



By the way, my dually fits nicely in my garage, which has two 9' doors. My garage is extra wide and extra deep.



george

 

[ACerf]

Since the manufacturer's fictitious "trailer tow rating" is calculated as GCWR - truck's curb weight, and since the SRW is lighter than a DRW truck, the "trailer tow rating" may well be higher for the SRW truck. However, the "trailer tow rating" ignores the GVWR and rear GAWR limitations of the SRW truck. Although, based solely on the "trailer tow rating", the SRW truck might be able to tow more, the DRW truck can carry more, and with a heavy 5th wheel, the pin weight transferred to the truck is a major consideration. Invariably, when pulling a 5th wheel, a SRW truck will exceed its lower GVWR long before it reaches the manufacturer's "trailer tow rating. "



Rusty

Rusty, I have to disagree with you on this one. If you have the correct setup on your SRW truck, the weight should be equally distributed between the trailer and the rear wheels of the truck. Also some weight is transferred to the front axle. One thing that many RV's have problems with, especailly Daullies, is not enough weight in the truck bed. If you were to tow my trailer with a dually I am sure you would have a rough ride. As it is my truck and trailer ride very smoothly. Most people seem to thing that having a dually is good for towing everything, and this is not the case. After working with hitch companies, unless the trailer is very heavy in the bed, it will ride rough and not handle well. Causing; bouncing, damage overtime to the trailer, and front end wander. I had some who had a Dodge dually pulling a 28' trailer. Installed was B&W hitch (best hitch you can buy), using a Trailair pin box. He could not get a smooth ride even using hardly any air in the Trailair. Even without the Trailair, the problem is that the pin weight of the trailer was to light for the truck. I had no problem hauling this trailer with my B&W, and with the trailair pin box (with 80psi in bag).

 

[RustyJC]

We can debate the subject all day. I challenge you to do this - hitch up a 5th wheel that will take a SRW truck all the way up to it's GCWR and take a trip to the scales. I'll make book that the SRW truck will be exceeding its GVWR.



Rusty