Payload vs. Axle load

[ACerf]

We can debate the subject all day. I challenge you to do this - hitch up a 5th wheel that will take a SRW truck all the way up to it's GCWR and take a trip to the scales. I'll make book that the SRW truck will be exceeding its GVWR.



Rusty

Rusty, actually I have done a weight check several times when we have been out for the summer. I have never exceeded the GVWR. I check the weight of the truck alone, the truck with trailer at the pin box, and the whole rig. I have neve exceed any of these weights as of yet. The truck and trailer run level, and I have no air bags. When it comes to RV'er, there are two types of people; "those who take the word of others and those who find out what is right". I would like to think of myself as the those who check out what is right.

 

[HBarlow]

Rusty, I have to disagree with you on this one. If you have the correct setup on your SRW truck, the weight should be equally distributed between the trailer and the rear wheels of the truck. Also some weight is transferred to the front axle. One thing that many RV's have problems with, especailly Daullies, is not enough weight in the truck bed. If you were to tow my trailer with a dually I am sure you would have a rough ride. As it is my truck and trailer ride very smoothly. Most people seem to thing that having a dually is good for towing everything, and this is not the case. After working with hitch companies, unless the trailer is very heavy in the bed, it will ride rough and not handle well. Causing; bouncing, damage overtime to the trailer, and front end wander. I had some who had a Dodge dually pulling a 28' trailer. Installed was B&W hitch (best hitch you can buy), using a Trailair pin box. He could not get a smooth ride even using hardly any air in the Trailair. Even without the Trailair, the problem is that the pin weight of the trailer was to light for the truck. I had no problem hauling this trailer with my B&W, and with the trailair pin box (with 80psi in bag).

ACerf,

If you already KNEW all this why did you ask here for advice?

I have no argument with those who choose to tow trailers that exceed the rear tire weight ratings of their trucks. That is their decision, their problem. You and others may do it for years and "have no problems. " But eventually you will blow a tire or get pulled into a highway scale, weighed, and be ticketed. Perhaps even handed an out of service order which means happy walking.

Rusty has carefully explained the situation and I agree 100% with his explanation. His explanation can be supported by scales anytime, anywhere.

The laws of physics determine the facts in the situations we are discussing, not wishful thinking, truck stop legends, or manufacturer's brochures.

A srw truck can only tow more if the driver ignores the weight on his truck and in particular, the weight on the rear axle of his truck. This is true because it is NOT POSSIBLE to "distribute" the kingpin or gooseneck weight of a heavy trailer loaded to it's capacity anywhere else. There is no hardware, no special equipment, and no magic that will redistribute the approximately 20% kingpin or gooseneck weight. The weight can exceed 20% with certain loads or installed equipment, for example a generator in the belly compartment of a fifth wheel travel trailer.

I have no interest in arguing with you about this, you will do what you decide to do and that is between your and your conscience.

What matters here is that the readers of this thread need to be able to read and understand the truth about towing heavy trailers.

 

[macdaddy]

Since the manufacturer's fictitious "trailer tow rating" is calculated as GCWR - truck's curb weight, and since the SRW is lighter than a DRW truck, the "trailer tow rating" may well be higher for the SRW truck. However, the "trailer tow rating" ignores the GVWR and rear GAWR limitations of the SRW truck. Although, based solely on the "trailer tow rating", the SRW truck might be able to tow more, the DRW truck can carry more, and with a heavy 5th wheel, the pin weight transferred to the truck is a major consideration. Invariably, when pulling a 5th wheel, a SRW truck will exceed its lower GVWR long before it reaches the manufacturer's "trailer tow rating. "



Rusty

I agree with this... .



This is what ive been explaining for years at work. Any fiver that is going to put the 3500 SRW at its max GCWR will have a pin weight higher than the SRW's max payload.



This is especially true with Toy Haulers...



Max

 

[HBarlow]

Rusty, actually I have done a weight check several times when we have been out for the summer. I have never exceeded the GVWR. I check the weight of the truck alone, the truck with trailer at the pin box, and the whole rig. I have neve exceed any of these weights as of yet. The truck and trailer run level, and I have no air bags. When it comes to RV'er, there are two types of people; "those who take the word of others and those who find out what is right". I would like to think of myself as the those who check out what is right.

ACerf,

You apparently forgot to mention whether you weighed the rear axle of your truck.

 

[ACerf]

ACerf,



You apparently forgot to mention whether you weighed the rear axle of your truck.

I weighted it with the fifth wheel. But not just the truck alone. That is not what we were talking about. But I am wanting to do that. But I don't really see that as issue for towing a fifth wheel, but would be nice for a slide-in camper. I know the rear GAWR is rated at 6150#. I running Hankook Dyna Pro "E" rated tires with a weight rating of 3295# each.

 

[ACerf]

ACerf,



If you already KNEW all this why did you ask here for advice?



I have no argument with those who choose to tow trailers that exceed the rear tire weight ratings of their trucks. That is their decision, their problem. You and others may do it for years and "have no problems. " But eventually you will blow a tire or get pulled into a highway scale, weighed, and be ticketed. Perhaps even handed an out of service order which means happy walking.



Rusty has carefully explained the situation and I agree 100% with his explanation. His explanation can be supported by scales anytime, anywhere.



The laws of physics determine the facts in the situations we are discussing, not wishful thinking, truck stop legends, or manufacturer's brochures.



A srw truck can only tow more if the driver ignores the weight on his truck and in particular, the weight on the rear axle of his truck. This is true because it is NOT POSSIBLE to "distribute" the kingpin or gooseneck weight of a heavy trailer loaded to it's capacity anywhere else. There is no hardware, no special equipment, and no magic that will redistribute the approximately 20% kingpin or gooseneck weight. The weight can exceed 20% with certain loads or installed equipment, for example a generator in the belly compartment of a fifth wheel travel trailer.



I have no interest in arguing with you about this, you will do what you decide to do and that is between your and your conscience.



What matters here is that the readers of this thread need to be able to read and understand the truth about towing heavy trailers.

Barlow, for one thing who is arguring! I am simply stating some facts. For one thing the advice that I was asking for had nothing to do with towing a any trailer or fifth. This subject got off track! I was asking for advice about a Slide-in Camper. I have never had any experience with this type of RV. Also, for your information I know that my fiver is not over weight for my truck, I made sure of that. If you noticed my profile you will see I have Holiday Rambler Alumascape. This trailers GVWR is 12,500# the lightest fifth wheel for its length (33'10"). It is built with an alumimum frame and . 40 flat sheet alumimum. With my trailer loaded and the truck I am not over the GCWR. If I had a anything else I might agree that the dually if be a good idea. But would be an over kill for my trailer. I have a 128,000 miles on the truck, 34,000 mile on the trailer. I have been across the USA several times. I have never had any problems with truck or trailer. Trans temp runs when towing 165-175 deg. ! I have Mag-Hytec Trans pan and Rear cover. Trailer has commerical grade Goodyear "E" rated tires rated a 3295# each. I never have a problems wandering, or when 18 wheeler go by me. I am running EGT's in the 900 to 1000 range, even going up hills. I get between 9-14 mpg towing (depends on terrain and winds that day). Truck never breaks a sweat!

But if you want to give me advice on the putting a Slide-In Camper I would appreicate that.

Thanks.

 

[ACerf]

Saw this online; thought some of you might be interested in this since we are on the subject.



"Truck Campers- Axle Weights"



When you take your truck to a public scale, its important to not only get a weight for the total truck, but to also get a weight for each axle (the weight on the front tires and the rear tires). If you are going to be over the GVWR, you will really need to know what your truck's allowable axle weights are. Even if you are within your truck's GVWR fully loaded, you still need to know that the axle weights are not exceeded. In the same place you find the manufacturer's GVWR on the truck, there will be a listing of the front and rear axle maximum weights. The typical ¾ ton truck will have a front axle allowable weight of around 4500 lbs, and the rear axle limit is usually 6084 lbs. Typically unloaded at the scale this truck will weigh 3600 lbs in front and 2600 lbs at the rear tires (notice they total the 6,200 lbs of total truck weight). On this truck, the maximum load on the rear axel would be 3,484 lbs. Whoa, your saying, why is it overall I'm only allowed 2600 lbs going by the GVWR and yet my rear axle can clearly take 3,400+ lbs? I can't give you a clear answer to this, but if you're wondering why 80% of all truck & camper combos travel thousands of miles without incident, the answer is partially here. For more about what limits a truck's axle rating, read the section about tires.

 

[Bill Stockard]

Saw this online; thought some of you might be interested in this since we are on the subject.



"Truck Campers- Axle Weights"



When you take your truck to a public scale, its important to not only get a weight for the total truck, but to also get a weight for each axle (the weight on the front tires and the rear tires). If you are going to be over the GVWR, you will really need to know what your truck’s allowable axle weights are. Even if you are within your truck’s GVWR fully loaded, you still need to know that the axle weights are not exceeded. In the same place you find the manufacturer’s GVWR on the truck, there will be a listing of the front and rear axle maximum weights. The typical ¾ ton truck will have a front axle allowable weight of around 4500 lbs, and the rear axle limit is usually 6084 lbs. Typically unloaded at the scale this truck will weigh 3600 lbs in front and 2600 lbs at the rear tires (notice they total the 6,200 lbs of total truck weight). On this truck, the maximum load on the rear axel would be 3,484 lbs. Whoa, your saying, why is it overall I’m only allowed 2600 lbs going by the GVWR and yet my rear axle can clearly take 3,400+ lbs? I can’t give you a clear answer to this, but if you’re wondering why 80% of all truck & camper combos travel thousands of miles without incident, the answer is partially here. For more about what limits a truck’s axle rating, read the section about tires.

I am aware of that method of weighing a truck loaded with a slide in camper and it is the way I weighed my truck and camper combination. See my post number 4 above. My truck is well within each axle's GAWR, but over the GVWR. The truck I have now has over 30,000 miles hauling the camper and my previous 3500 dually truck and slightly lighter 11-1/2 ft. camper without a slide-out had tens of thousands of miles hauling throughout the lower 48. There have been no weight related problems with either truck. However, I am not advising to anyone else to do the same.



Bill

 

[ACerf]

I am aware of that method of weighing a truck loaded with a slide in camper and it is the way I weighed my truck and camper combination. See my post number 4 above. My truck is well within each axle's GAWR, but over the GVWR. The truck I have now has over 30,000 miles hauling the camper and my previous 3500 dually truck and slightly lighter 11-1/2 ft. camper without a slide-out had tens of thousands of miles hauling throughout the lower 48. There have been no weight related problems with either truck. However, I am not advising to anyone else to do the same.



Bill

I have to say that this Payload vs. Axle weight thing is very confusing. But the axle weight seems to make some sense, otherwise they would not post it on the trucks. I am beginning to think that the manufactures are just trying to get people to not over load there trucks. I mentiioned in a previous post that I found a camper made by Westland that has a slide and weights in at 2160# adding all options it comes up to 2460#, which see pretty decent for a camper.

 

[OGaddis]

Here are a couple more disadvantages to a dually. There's a blizzard going outside right at the moment (otherwise I'd be at work) and that means I definitely would not drive the dually unloaded (why would you want to drive a dually unloaded?). Second is the problem with driving off-road (Forest Service roads, etc) and getting rocks wedged between the duallies. I carry a hammer for that. Also started towing a UTV to minimize the off-road driving with the dually. In every other way I have no regrets about owning the dually.



I drove the 2500 for 10 years with a 9'-6" Lance (no slide) and towed a 27-5L Arctic Fox 5th wheel with the same 3/4 ton. It worked fine but I now have a 3500 so I can carry the Lance and tow a horse trailer. After driving the 3500 with either the slide-in camper or the 5th wheel my choice is to always use the 3500 for the extra stability it provides.

 

[CBari]

Harvey,



The single wheel 3500 and 2500 if the have the towing mirrors are as wide as 3500 drw. Also, there are quite a few car washes in my neck of the woods that accept duallies. I however always test the new ones with my 2500 first. If it gets past the mirrors in the down postion it is good to go for the dually.



Don't get me me wrong I would never trade my dually for a single rear 3500, Just like you wanted to point out that they are not as big and wide as most people think they are.

 

[HBarlow]

Perhaps I haven't looked closely enough. The car washes I have seen, which is not many, have signs prohibiting duallies.

 

[Grizzly]

I'll never take my dually to a car wash, drive-up teller or a McDonald's drive-up window. I park in the lower 40 and walk up.

 

[fest3er]

I'll never take my dually to a car wash, drive-up teller or a McDonald's drive-up window. I park in the lower 40 and walk up.

But how does that help when you want to clean the truck?

 

[Grizzly]

But how does that help when you want to clean the truck?

I have always washed my truck and cars by hand. I've never been to a car wash. For the truck and 5th wheel I use a telescoping water attached soft brush. Works great.



george

 

[Bigiron]

See the SIG. My dually goes in my garage. If the mirrors go thru the duallies go thru. I can also run it thru most car washes. Not a fan of washing it in the driveway when it is 10 degrees outside. The hose freezes LOL. I wouldn't trade a dually for a single no matter what as long as I am towing!!!!

 

[RVTRKN]

I'll stick my two cents in here, GCVWR/GVWR are the manufacture numbers, the only number's you have to pay attention to, are the axle ratings on your door sticker, and if you stay within this number your legal. The problem is, is it safe enough within the drivers capability. Never pay attention to what a salesman says when he claims your truck (DRW/SRW) can handle. Before purchase, you should demand that you can weigh it on/connected to the truck that will tow it. DOT, per the law must go by the Rear/Front Axle ratings regardless of the tire rating unless its less then the axle rating. Now in the real world you might get away with a DOT inspection, but I wouldn't bet on it personally. Stay within your Axle ratings with tire's rated at or above the rating, period!

 

[gtoli]

I considered a dualie but got the single because I frequently go into the forest to cut firewood and couldn't imagine trying to navigate through the trees with a Dual.

 

[MelvinPierce]

I have an 04 with a 38' toy hauler. I am 2000# over the combo weight, at 22,000#, but all the axle weights are OK. The pickup is over its total weight, but by axle weight it is OK. That is what I am most concerned about, axle weight. All tires and axles are within specs, I am not much worried about total weight, if the axles are OK.

BTW, I am hauling crude oil out of gravel roads in ND on the ice with a 03 Pete with 1. 4 million miles on it, pulling doubles at a gross of 115,000#, so am used to big loads.

 

[mpaulson]

I'm overloaded as far as the truck lables would be concerned, but I'm under on all of my axles/tires. Trailer 8850#, rear truck 8750#, front 5800# for a total of 23,400#. I've got the load of both the slide-in and travel trailer world in my case with my two story deck on the truck and a 35' trailer behind the truck. I have added the roadmaster 1 3/8" sway bar, modified air bags and tires that are rated to carry the load and have a good stiff sidewall to reduce side movement in the truck. I have no problems at al as long as I have good tires on the truck. I had some Goodyear silent armours on the truck and will never buy them again for the type of loading that I do. I actually offroad a little with the load and trailer when we go camping to get into the bush well off the roads doing some dragging in the process. I'm on my 4th dually and will never buy anything else as long as I'm hauling my family around for camping for the next few decades.