Competition PDR's Blower on 5.9

[nascar mark]

Not even close Gene.

We just thought it would be cool to try something different. We got it up and running, it works, took a pic and I posted it as a "hey, check it out"... . simple as that. We are not looking for your approval or anyone elses as we are just having fun and trying something different. You never know, we might put it in a truck and play some more.



You should try something different yourself, like lighten up, smile, have a laugh, throw around some positive idea's with friends and you never know people might even like you.

 

[Sled Puller]

Not even close Gene.

We just thought it would be cool to try something different. .

It is, and I said as much in my first post, the one which Piers labeled negative.

The rest of your post above... . PSHAW!

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

It reminds me of a triple turbo, triple intercooled, triply drugged,monster about a year ago... ... . did that truck ever run?

I know of one that did... I drove it onto the transport truck



I have to admit that blower does look pretty up there on top of that motor but...



Sleddy is right the roots blower is inefficient when compared to a similarly sized turbo.



Turbos have lag. In a drag vehicle the lag can be detrimental.



For the guy asking why mustangs and GM cars are using whipple chargers. . they do it for torque. A 4. 6lor 5. 3l gas motor is lacking for displacement. They want the torque of a 454 or 460 w/o the weight. Big motors are hard to fit, stop, turn, and accelerate.



The turbo motor is the most efficient. It takes the wasted heat form the exhaust and turns it into positive intake pressure. The normal internal combustion engine is less than 25% efficient. most of the fuel is either unburned or the energy is released into the surrounding environment as heat.



Turbos are much better suited for street driven vehicles because they make artificial displacement based on load. at 0% throttle there is little or no boost. a set of twins at 3500rpm will make 10-14psi freewheeling and 70+ psi under load. A blower makes the same amount of boost all the time wheather there is a load or not. On a gas vehicle the the amount of air entering the motor determines the minimum amount of fuel that must be delivered to keep it from melting (gas motors run hot lean and cold rich. . the exact opposite of a diesel).



Road racers use a turbo for just the reasons stated above... load based boost. a turbo is simpler, more reliable and more efficient. a turbo motor will burn less fuel to make the same amount of HP as a blower motor. This means their fuel goes further. they use the lag to smoothly apply power out of turns to save tires. they also use less fuel while coasting and decelerating. It all adds up. you will have a lighter more reliable vehicle with a turbo. Don't for get that a varable wastegate allows you to detune the motor instantly for changes in conditions. Blowers require a pulley change.



I sat in a hotrod shop and contemplated a blower on a CTD 2yrs ago and the COST/BENEFIT was just not worth it. I'm not saying it won't work. I'm saying it was too much trouble and not practical for a STREET truck. Putting a blower on WILL reduce effieciency especially at low load (cruising down the highway). That is a condition I am not willing to accept for a daily driver.



The lack of lag is tempting though.

 

[JoshPeters]

For the guy asking why mustangs and GM cars are using whipple chargers. . they do it for torque. A 4. 6lor 5. 3l gas motor is lacking for displacement. They want the torque of a 454 or 460 w/o the weight. Big motors are hard to fit, stop, turn, and accelerate.





The lack of lag is tempting though.

I am trying to say..... If these smaller engines are using these chargers that take up 600hp How are they getting down the street? They are using a Small Efficient unit.



Why would Piers use something that takes 600hp to run? How about one of these SMALLER units from an automotive application? I know one FACTORY vehicle that CAN (I honestly don't remember if it does) hit 22psi with a supercharger. It also has a clutch on it so that it can be disenguaged when not in use. This car does not produce 600hp, nor does that supercharger take that much to run. Sure this car costs a small fortune, but... you are paying for the entire car. The car..... any one of the Mercedes-Benz AMG Supercharged V8 cars. 5. 5L V8 469hp 516lbs torque.



Why would Mercedes use a Supercharger instead of a Turbo on their V8's? They have a Twin Turboed V12 out there... ... I think they know something we don't. Oo.



Keep up the good work Piers!



Josh

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I am trying to say..... If these smaller engines are using these chargers that take up 600hp How are they getting down the street? They are using a Small Efficient unit.



Why would Piers use something that takes 600hp to run? How about one of these SMALLER units from an automotive application? I know one FACTORY vehicle that CAN (I honestly don't remember if it does) hit 22psi with a supercharger. It also has a clutch on it so that it can be disenguaged when not in use. This car does not produce 600hp, nor does that supercharger take that much to run. Sure this car costs a small fortune, but... you are paying for the entire car. The car..... any one of the Mercedes-Benz AMG Supercharged V8 cars. 5. 5L V8 469hp 516lbs torque.



Why would Mercedes use a Supercharger instead of a Turbo on their V8's? They have a Twin Turboed V12 out there... ... I think they know something we don't. Oo.



Keep up the good work Piers!



Josh

It takes a real driver to handle a turbo car. A supercharged one feels like a bigblock. Mash it and go. The average joe can handle that. a 600 hp turbo car has the effect our CTD's do. You mash it and the power builds. the tires blow away deceptively making them fairly difficult to drive. If you're driving a benz it's not about efficiency.



Most oem's make less than 8psi so they don't need intercoolers.



To an OEM the efficiency isn't just at the flywheel but in the checkbook.



A supercharger is easier to install because of the reduced plumbing under the hood theere is also less heat in the engine compartment. the increased het may necessitate the reeingineering of other parts unrelated to the induction system.



You can bolt on a supercharger in a couple of hours and never have to take even a bolt off of the exhaust system. In mass production a few expensive parts is cheaper than bunch of cheaper ones especially when looking at assebly lines and labor costs.

 

[JoshPeters]

Yes I understand all of the above... ... . I'm talking building power and boost with a supercharger that doesn't take 600hp to run. This is what "I" believe Piers is doing.







Josh

Yes the 600hp Twin Turbo V12 is a handful. 40mph, stand on it... . your sideways if you have the traction control off. 2 VVT turbos will spool plenty quick.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Yes I understand all of the above... ... . I'm talking building power and boost with a supercharger that doesn't take 600hp to run. This is what "I" believe Piers is doing.







Josh

Yes the 600hp Twin Turbo V12 is a handful. 40mph, stand on it... . your sideways if you have the traction control off. 2 VVT turbos will spool plenty quick.

It does take about 20% of the flywheel hp to drive the supercharger so a 600hp supercharged motor would WASTE 120hp driving the supercharger. The same vehicle with a turbo would be 650-700hp on a turbo.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

my god, it's not like they built the thing to outrun and outpull every other truck on earth... they're hot rodders!!! someone said, "hey, wouldn't it be cool if we _______" so they did it...



this place amazes me sometimes...

 

[JoshPeters]

OK..... Under that..... if you had a 100hp engine and a 200hp engine... . both running the same supercharger..... they would use different ammounts of power? You are spending energy to spin the supercharger from lets say 1000-3000rpm and, 10psi of boost This energy doesn't change because you bolt it to another application with more or less HP. Why would the 200hp engine need to spend more HP than the 100HP engine. If anything I would think it would be the other way around. The 200hp engine is more efficent at spinning that supercharger so it would take LESS HP to make that same charger spin.



Josh

 

[COMP461]

Wow so confusing, the 600 hp supercharger is only on a top fuel motor, and it moves more air the a tornado, the super charger that it apears the Piers is using would be a great deal, and I applaud their forward think in trying something new, don't be confused in to thinking that a turbo doesn’t take hp to drive , because it dose , the big new efficient super chargers now in use are really the compressor half of a turbo, and from the reports I have seen , the biggest is about the size of a Big Brother , this is a very efficient super charger and it takes 75 hp to drive , using a belt , and not a exhaust driven turbine wheel . Don’t for get a turbo is nothing more then a super charger that is driven by a exhaust driven turbine. The real name is a turbo super charger. The misnomer that the power is free , the back pressure is an enormous drain on the engines ability to remove spent gases ,and fill the chamber with fresh air to burn all that diesel fuel some of us like to inject in to the chamber. If you can drive the compressor of a big turbo like the Big Brother with a belt, and gear drive, and drive it at the same RPM as the turbo, then you will make the same boost. using the crank to turn the charger would take power , but you would have no drive pressure to speak of and could benefit from the use of a good tuned length set of headers , and the resulting scavenge of the cylinder would let more air fill the chamber , and make good power.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

OK..... Under that..... if you had a 100hp engine and a 200hp engine... . both running the same supercharger..... they would use different ammounts of power? You are spending energy to spin the supercharger from lets say 1000-3000rpm and, 10psi of boost This energy doesn't change because you bolt it to another application with more or less HP. Why would the 200hp engine need to spend more HP than the 100HP engine. If anything I would think it would be the other way around. The 200hp engine is more efficent at spinning that supercharger so it would take LESS HP to make that same charger spin.



Josh

The higher the HP the higher the flow. for the supercharger to flow more it must spin faster and therefor must use more power.



If you had 2 identical motors with the same supercharger and one was making 100hp and the other 200hp the one making 100hp could spin the charger slower using less power.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

It reminds me of a triple turbo, triple intercooled, triply drugged,monster about a year ago... ... . did that truck ever run?



Nope, it didn't work... ... but that was last Sunday!

 

[DRAG DIESEL]

I just wanted to quote that in case he changed his mind!!

LMAO!!! :-laf

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Mark, good post.



A lot of 'streetable' superchargers today have air bypass valves for cruising... .



Get up to a certain speed or rpm and the supercharger's bypass opens and it essentially begins to freewheel with air flowing through it and around it.



By then your BIG turbo would come into play.



Kind of makes me excited to see what Piers and Comp461 come up with. Oo.

 

[Sled Puller]

Nascar mark,

Here is some incentive for you guys to actully put it IN a vehicle:



http://www.diesel-central.com/forums/default.aspx?mode=thread&TopicID=2696



Maybe give you some fresh ideas, different direction to go.

 

[biggy238]

COMP Thanks you for being reasonable and almost directly answering my questions.



I still think that a centrifugal system would have it's benefeit due to the fact that it would alow use of an extremely large turbo unit with no loss in bottom end spool. I like roots type chargers but they don't seem to be as flexible within a space constraint. You can't just change drive ratios on them and make boost where you need to.



I do have another question though. I don't think the centrifugal systems rotate at anywhere near the speed of a turbo charger. I liken it more to a squirrel cage than a turbo. Is there any truth to that logic?



And as others had said along with myself, the whole thing doesn't have any real direction right now. Everyone reading this except sleddy has their own intentions with the idea. Mine is more along the idea of a street stripper with little or no lag and a big enough turbo to compensate for any HP loss.



Also like I said in my last post.



BIG HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY TRUCKS! BIG HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY MOTORS!

Stop kidding yourselves. You're in the same crowd as people that drag race four bangers with any level of seriousness. You can try all you want but you don't have a good engine for racing. Dragging things around maybe. Drag racing- no!

Just build one system with a procharger centrifugal or whatever and one massive turbo behind it. See what it can do at the strip. I think it will be worth someone's while when they see the 0-60ft times. Stop comparing it to anything else because this is truely one instance where there is nothing like it in function and form.



Man i'm gonna have to stop hanging around the competition forum. If it gets any deeper people are gonna need respirators.

 

[Sled Puller]

Stop kidding yourselves. You're in the same crowd as people that drag race four bangers with any level of seriousness. You can try all you want but you don't have a good engine for racing. Dragging things around maybe. Drag racing- no!

.

Is that a misprint?



If it isn't you need to get to IRP in June.

 

[ob1kobi]

Stop kidding yourselves. You're in the same crowd as people that drag race four bangers with any level of seriousness. You can try all you want but you don't have a good engine for racing. Dragging things around maybe. Drag racing- no!

Guess my local track would be suprised to know this, as well as all the people that I beat week in and week out. As for the four bangers, if there is any performance arena that is growing faster then the diesel, its the import arena. Try checking out a NOPI race sometime, you might be suprised how much power those cars are making and just how fast those cars are.



Ted

 

[RacinDuallie]

Also like I said in my last post.



BIG HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY TRUCKS! BIG HEAVY HEAVY HEAVY MOTORS!

Stop kidding yourselves. You're in the same crowd as people that drag race four bangers with any level of seriousness. You can try all you want but you don't have a good engine for racing. Dragging things around maybe. Drag racing- no!







Man i'm gonna have to stop hanging around the competition forum. If it gets any deeper people are gonna need respirators.

HA! :-laf HA! :-laf HA! :-laf HA! :-laf HA! :-laf HA! :-laf HA! :-laf



He was funny ? NOT!

 

[COMP461]

The Pro Charger turns as fast as a turbo, the gearing in side it is 5 to 10 to 1 , and the belt can be any ratio up to 3 to one which means you could easy get 100,000 rpms out of it .

Stop kidding yourselves. You're in the same crowd as people that drag race four bangers with any level of seriousness. You can try all you want but you don't have a good engine for racing. Dragging things around maybe. Drag racing- no!

Just build one system with a procharger centrifugal or whatever and one massive turbo behind it. See what it can do at the strip. I think it will be worth someone's while when they see the 0-60ft times. Stop comparing it to anything else because this is truely one instance where there is nothing like it in function and form.



Man i'm gonna have to stop hanging around the competition forum. If it gets any deeper people are gonna need respirators.

The diesel is following close behind sport compact in a meteoric rise in popularity; just recently NHRA has started the process to let diesel trucks in to super stock, and diesel pro stock trucks and dragsters in to competition eliminator. This is hollowed ground in the world of drag racing, as these along with stock are the roots of drag racing. In the next year you will see a big push to have diesels in the MAJOR sanction bodies, they are very much pursuing the leaders, we get calls every week, to work the details out of the new classes. And as far as 60’ you would not want to line on the tree with me, I regularly turn in 1. 18 , and 1. 19 60’ times with my diesel ,