perspective on oil prices...

[RustyJC]

And to ME, it's as socially immoral for an oil company or middle East tyrant to MUG me at the oil pump, as it would be for our farmers to artificially jack up food prices to line their own pockets beyond reasonable profit. It's called GOUGING - and I don't like it for me, or for a society that must RUN on fuel to keep the wheels of agriculture, industry and society running.

Gary,



Does the farmer set the price of beef, milk or soybeans? No, the prices of these agricultural commodities are established by the market.



Crude oil and fuels are also commodities traded on commodity exchanges such as the New York Merchantile Exchange (NYMEX). If you want to see how the market is pricing these commodities today, take a look at http://www.bloomberg.com/energy/ .



If you want to have an objective discussion regarding energy prices, we can do that. If you just want a public forum to rant and rave, I'll bow out and give you the floor.



Rusty

 

[loncray]

Rusty and Hohn are exactly right. There are a lot of factors in today's fuel prices, and blaming just the oil companies or just the Arabs does no good. And I am well aware that my CTD is a luxury. My prior car was a 25 mpg Acura Integra - which would've gotten better mileage if not for my lead foot. I got along fine with that car for 11 years, and would return to something like it if diesel fuel got beyond the point at which I can afford to keep running my truck. On the other hand, if it weren't for that 20 mpg CTD, I'd likely NOT own any sort of truck - my driving habits would give me about 8 mpg with a Hemi.

 

[ropinfool2]

One question that keeps nagging at me is why is Diesel more expensive than gas (at the pump)? Isn't is cheaper to produce? Doesn't it require less refining? I no longer drive my truck, I'm only getting 13 mpg empty (dealer says nothing wrong), can't afford that. I'm too big to fit in an hybrid, I have a hard enough time squeezing into my Hyundai that gets 30 mpg. Every now and then I break down and drive the truck but not very often. I've cancelled all my unnecessary summer trips due to the increase in fuel prices. The couple that I will still need to make will be by car and staying in motels vs. pulling my NEW 5th wheel with my fairly NEW truck. This fuel situation has hit my family hard. We were doing fairly well, hence the new trailer and truck but when you have a long commute the fuel prices add up and blow out the budget. JMHO. John

 

[RustyJC]

One question that keeps nagging at me is why is Diesel more expensive than gas (at the pump)? Isn't is cheaper to produce? Doesn't it require less refining?

John,



In a market-driven economy, price is not a direct function of cost. Price is primarily a function of both current and anticipated future supply and demand.



If diesel fuel and home heating oil are in greater demand and/or have tighter supplies than unleaded gasoline, then diesel fuel's price will tend to rise more than gasoline's.



Rusty

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"This fuel situation has hit my family hard. We were doing fairly well, hence the new trailer and truck but when you have a long commute the fuel prices add up and blow out the budget. "



WELL, John, as I interpret the comments further above:



1. You are wrong concerning fuel prices being higher, it's an illusion, and you are REALLY paying LESS for fuel than what you did in the past, according to inflation adjustments. Just be happy you're not powering your vehicles with spring water or latte...



2. Actually, it's just your PAY and job that's at fault, for not keeping up - blame your greedy boss, not oil producers...



3. Various levels of oil producers and refiners are entirely ENTITLED to get as much unlimited profit as possible fo their fuels (ALL fuels, NOT just our diesels!), regardless of what those profits do the our society, or the health of our total economy. Any needed adjustment of reasonable needs and expectations should be done at the CONSUMER level - and oil producers should be allowed a totally free hand.



4. Your truck, trailer, and ability to USE them is not in ANY way a reasonable right, it's ALL a selfish luxury - as is your ability to heat your home, if you can't afford to drive them, you need something like a YUGO to drive, or find a job closer to home - and get your family heavier clothing!



It was all summed up in an earlier age with a simple statement:





"Let them eat CAKE!"



(What ever HAPPENED to that broad, anyway?)

 

[RustyJC]

If you want to have an objective discussion regarding energy prices, we can do that. If you just want a public forum to rant and rave, I'll bow out and give you the floor.

Well, I guess you've made your choice. Enjoy your rant.



Rusty

 

[Byershome]

"Price is primarily a function of both current and anticipated future supply and demand. "



And how much tax greedy politicians think they can get away with increasing the taxes on it... ..... :-laf

 

[RustyJC]

... . And how much tax greedy politicians think they can get away with increasing the taxes on it... ..... :-laf

Would you like to quantify the increase in fuel taxes in, let's say, the last 2 years? Let's see how much that contributes to the runup in fuel prices.



Perhaps I can help. The Federal fuel tax on on-road diesel fuel over time has been:



Effective Date - Tax (cents/gallon)



01/01/1987 - 15. 1

12/01/1990 - 20. 1

10/01/1993 - 24. 4

01/01/1996 - 24. 3

10/01/1997 - 24. 4





Rusty

 

[klenger]

It seems like we in the US of A have enjoyed cheap fuel for decades because the demand was relatively low (compared to today) becuase many of the 3rd world countries did not have an economy to support large scale fuel consumption. Now that countries like China and India (with hugh populations) are enjoying economic growth, the demand has increased and prices are climbing. Also, european countries have had high fuel costs for a long time. I think that what is happening is that we are seeing a permanent change in the way that fuel is used around the world, and the playing field is now being leveled. I don't think that that is all that unfair, only different from what we are used to, and I don't expect it to ever go back to the way it was.

 

[Byershome]

"Perhaps I can help. The Federal fuel tax on on-road diesel fuel over time has been:



Effective Date - Tax (cents/gallon)



01/01/1987 - 15. 1

12/01/1990 - 20. 1

10/01/1993 - 24. 4

01/01/1996 - 24. 3

10/01/1997 - 24. 4"



And that is just at the federal level, state and local governments get their greedy hands in the pot as well... ... ... ... .

 

[RustyJC]

And that is just at the federal level, state and local governments get their greedy hands in the pot as well... ... ... ... .

Actually, what the table shows is that the Federal diesel fuel tax has not increased since October 1, 1997. Texas has not increased its state diesel fuel tax of $0. 20/gallon since 1991. That hardly sounds like "greedy politicians" are responsible for the recent run-up in fuel prices because of fuel tax increases.



Rusty

 

[Byershome]

Florida:



Gasoline Tax: 14. 5 cents/gallon

Diesel Fuel Tax: 27. 3 cents/gallon

Gasohol Tax: 14. 5 cents/gallon

(Local taxes for gasoline and gasohol vary from 5. 5 cents to 17 cents, plus there is a 2. 07% gasoline pollution tax. )



A pollution tax :-laf Wait that's not it... ... ... . how about a milage tax... ... ... ... ... air tax (gas engines use air)... ... ... ... ..... heat tax... . roads put off a lot of heat not to mention what comes out of the tail pipe :-laf a fat tax..... after all if you are over wieght you are causing additional wear to the roadway :-laf

 

[RustyJC]

So, are you trying to make a point that Florida's diesel fuel tax has increased within, say, the last year or two? If so, how much?



You make the allegation that the "greedy politicians" are responsible for at least a part of the recent run-up in fuel prices through increased taxes. I've shown you that, on a Federal level, that's not true, nor is it true in Texas.



Rusty

 

[Byershome]

"That hardly sounds like "greedy politicians" are responsible for the recent run-up in fuel prices because of fuel tax increases. "



You mean we are voluntarily paying these taxes... ... ... ... maybe I am off base but I am pretty sure it was a greedy politicians looking for new revenue streams that put them there and the fact that they have not done it lately on the federal level only goes to show Republicans have been in control of Congress.



Regardless, these taxes are a large part of the high cost of fuel.

 

[RustyJC]

No, Mr. Byers, you originally said:

And how much tax greedy politicians think they can get away with increasing the taxes on it... .....

I've demonstrated that no such increase has taken place. Therefore, fuel taxes have not contributed to the recent run-up in fuel prices.



Rusty

 

[Byershome]

"Therefore, fuel taxes have not contributed to the recent run-up in fuel prices. "



Are you saying they have been removed? Of course not. They are there therefore they must contribute, sorry that is just a fact of life.



Texas:



Gasoline Tax: 20 cents/gallon

Diesel Fuel Tax: 20 cents/gallon

Gasohol Tax: 20 cents/gallon



http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/cars/primer-gas/primergas.htm



These are some old charts but they make the point not to mention a mysterious increase in taxes

 

[RustyJC]

Are you saying they have been removed? Of course not. They are there therefore they must contribute, sorry that is just a fact of life.

No, Mr. Byers. I'm saying that they haven't increased since October 1, 1997 (Federal). Since the Texas fuel tax hasn't increased since 1991, fuel taxes have not contributed to the recent INCREASE in fuel prices as you alleged. Unless the fuel taxes have increased, they do not play a part in the INCREASE in fuel prices.



Rusty

 

[Byershome]

Then you believe these taxes have somehow mysteriously disappeared There is no getting away from it, no denying it. We pay more in taxes for fuel than we do to have it refined and distributed... . including profit taking.



As with many problems the cause of the problem is often found by looking a little more than skin deep. (Or 2 years back). With fuel prices still far below all time highs, after adjusting for inflation, the real burden is the taxes we pay... ... ... ... ... ... which we could cut in half with the fair tax

 

[RustyJC]

So much for an objective discussion. I always thought I had at least a basic ability to communicate with others. After this, I'm doubting it more and more. :{



Rusty

 

[Hohn]

"This fuel situation has hit my family hard. We were doing fairly well, hence the new trailer and truck but when you have a long commute the fuel prices add up and blow out the budget. "



WELL, John, as I interpret the comments further above:



1. You are wrong concerning fuel prices being higher, it's an illusion, and you are REALLY paying LESS for fuel than what you did in the past, according to inflation adjustments. Just be happy you're not powering your vehicles with spring water or latte...



2. Actually, it's just your PAY and job that's at fault, for not keeping up - blame your greedy boss, not oil producers...



3. Various levels of oil producers and refiners are entirely ENTITLED to get as much unlimited profit as possible fo their fuels (ALL fuels, NOT just our diesels!), regardless of what those profits do the our society, or the health of our total economy. Any needed adjustment of reasonable needs and expectations should be done at the CONSUMER level - and oil producers should be allowed a totally free hand.



4. Your truck, trailer, and ability to USE them is not in ANY way a reasonable right, it's ALL a selfish luxury - as is your ability to heat your home, if you can't afford to drive them, you need something like a YUGO to drive, or find a job closer to home - and get your family heavier clothing!



It was all summed up in an earlier age with a simple statement:





"Let them eat CAKE!"



(What ever HAPPENED to that broad, anyway?)

Proof ^^^ that emotion and complaint are more convenient than patience and understanding.



Gary's whining reminds me of those Union types that expect to be paid $30/hr installing GM door panels, no matter how market forces change the value of their labor.



jlh