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Competition PHUZION head gasket O-ring???cummins??
- Thread starter JSpecht
- Start Date
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not on the 5. 9 the ford guys approached cometic about 2 years ago about building some gaskets for the 7. 3. I hauled a junk block from tn to way up in oh, where the other guy that was doing all the logistics took it over to cometics labratory. They have been using these type of gaskets in high hp drag racers for many years and have worked out quite well. We have been using them very efficently up into hte 60 psi range without any real failures. THey can make them in stock or about as thick as you want, however i recomend staying away from the thicker then . 120 because the gaskets are more likley to have saeling failure.
Other then that a pretty good gasket for the guy that does not have o'ring and fire ring tooling easlily available
Travis
Other then that a pretty good gasket for the guy that does not have o'ring and fire ring tooling easlily available
Travis
The Cummins 5. 9 03 and up already has this gasket , it’s a multi layer gasket , and it is more then sufficient up to most power levels with a good stud package, Like the ARP 2000. ARP is the leader in racing fasteners and dose 100% of NASCAR, INDY CAR, CART, and most Formula 1 fasteners. They were slow getting in to the diesel Program, but are doing a great deal of research, and coming out with a lot of new, and innovative products.
An ARP 2000 stud at 115 lbs is only at 75 % of its designed clamping load, but this is with in the range of the bore of the block. Now take that same stud to capability of 95 % of yield, of say 140 lbs, like a lot of people do, and the block distorts as much as . 001 in bore concentric. No problem if you hone your block with a honing plate. When you change the dynamics of the top of the cylinder bores, with stronger studs, and torque them to a higher yield then spec, this will usually need to be clean up with honing
Now if you put studs in a motor and bring them to the yield , equal to the best clamping load of the bolt they replace , then you have a more effective fastener system, that will not give under load. Its when you ask more out of the stud , by going from the tested yield equal to the bolt , you then distort the block. If you are building a new motor and a fresh bore, with honing plates, then you can take the fastener up in 95 % yield and achieve a better clamping load.
Now to 14 mm studs, with their removal of critical structure of the head and block, You completely change the structure of the first inch of the bore. The amount of distorting of the Cummins block with 14mm studs is incredible, and what you might gain by sealing the head gasket, now goes by you rings in the fact that the rings and cylinder bore are not in sync. This is not and never should be a option on any Cummins
I have never been a advocate of these unnecessary, and in reality ineffective methods cylinder combustion containment Ideals. If you are running moderate power levels 50 to 70 PSI one of these new gaskets should hold , and with studs it becomes even more effective, but remember if you change the clamping load you change the shape of the top of the bore, unless you hone with the new fastener and gasket, with a good set of honing plates, opps nobody told you that part did they.
Now for O-rings if you chose to go that route, it is important that you have a competent machine shop install the o-ring in the proper location, and with the right protrusion. One of the so-called leading vendors of the diesel world didn’t get right, in installation of an o-ring job. It’s critical , and I mean critical to having the wire appears to have no seams this in it self is an art. When customer got his head from one of thes vendors , the wire had gaps in it of up to . 025, this leader of the diesel vendors told the customer, he would fix it, but that “it was really nothing mor then cosmetic, and it really didn’t mater if the wire came together. ” This is the reason that o-rings don’t hold that, and a variance of protrusion, this variance should not be over . 0005, or half a thousand of a inch
I would really not use the BHJ machine, useless the guy is very experienced, and that leaves most out, including myself. Using a Mill , or even CNC is the best way . that doesn’t mean that a BHJ tool is bad, but it was designed for something entirely different then putting a stainless . 041 wire in to the stainless fire ring of a gasket, it was designed to put this same wire in a dead soft copper gasket, with a receiver grove on the opposite side.
Now on to fire rings, what a joke, if you can’t hold it in with a good o-ring job, then the next step is not this , its is attempt to copy something that is way out of date in formula one racing from the fifties. They now use something that only a few, on here know or understand, and is a extreme that is not need in drag racing, but is necessary in extreme pulling, John Russin at Buddha Power and Brian Block both pioneered bringing this to diesels, and few if any know about it, and that is all I will say about it, it’s the ultimate, and is expensive, but not needed on any thing a drag racer will ever build.
The next step in the process is to run an o-ring with a copper head gasket and a receiver grove, this holds in top fuel racing where the pressures and loads are more then any!!!! Diesel will ever encounter in proper tune , and I stress proper tune , if you run the motor wrong , or incorrect timing excessive then nothing will hold the head in place.
I will address a few of the myths and facts about head gasket seal.
Its not boost levels that kill head gaskets and other parts in high performance diesels, but the amount of cylinder pressure peak spike. These spikes can accrue above the level of the ability to hold containment of this pressure, and when this happens the pressure will go and find the weakest link.
These spikes are caused by excessive timing for that rpm, excessive cylinder loading, meaning the amount of air in volume in the combustion chamber. The more cylinder head and Camshaft technologies catches up, the more air gets in the motors and is not restricted at the port, causing high boost numbers, the lower the boost it will take to achieve these levels of power that need better combustion containment systems. If you take a 90 psi diesel engine with twins, with a stock head and camshaft, and introduce the latest cams from say Bullet/RAYMAC , or Russin, you will lose boost, put a ported head and you loose more boost. This is if you add no more fuel. Now if you add a real cam, meaning clearance the pistons, and do a real ported head like Ray Little or RAYMAC is putting out the door, or some like Russin is doing, and the rest are just grinding metal for effect, making it look pretty, because I’ve had their stuff on the flow bench, and the bench is very cruel to their work. You loose a great deal or the restriction you call boost, and put air in the motor .
One example of head air flow is if you were to have a 500 cfm prostock port , on a 5. 9 Cummins you would only need 30 psi to make the power levels that the 1500 hp pulling rigs now use 150 lbs to make that power
An ARP 2000 stud at 115 lbs is only at 75 % of its designed clamping load, but this is with in the range of the bore of the block. Now take that same stud to capability of 95 % of yield, of say 140 lbs, like a lot of people do, and the block distorts as much as . 001 in bore concentric. No problem if you hone your block with a honing plate. When you change the dynamics of the top of the cylinder bores, with stronger studs, and torque them to a higher yield then spec, this will usually need to be clean up with honing
Now if you put studs in a motor and bring them to the yield , equal to the best clamping load of the bolt they replace , then you have a more effective fastener system, that will not give under load. Its when you ask more out of the stud , by going from the tested yield equal to the bolt , you then distort the block. If you are building a new motor and a fresh bore, with honing plates, then you can take the fastener up in 95 % yield and achieve a better clamping load.
Now to 14 mm studs, with their removal of critical structure of the head and block, You completely change the structure of the first inch of the bore. The amount of distorting of the Cummins block with 14mm studs is incredible, and what you might gain by sealing the head gasket, now goes by you rings in the fact that the rings and cylinder bore are not in sync. This is not and never should be a option on any Cummins
I have never been a advocate of these unnecessary, and in reality ineffective methods cylinder combustion containment Ideals. If you are running moderate power levels 50 to 70 PSI one of these new gaskets should hold , and with studs it becomes even more effective, but remember if you change the clamping load you change the shape of the top of the bore, unless you hone with the new fastener and gasket, with a good set of honing plates, opps nobody told you that part did they.
Now for O-rings if you chose to go that route, it is important that you have a competent machine shop install the o-ring in the proper location, and with the right protrusion. One of the so-called leading vendors of the diesel world didn’t get right, in installation of an o-ring job. It’s critical , and I mean critical to having the wire appears to have no seams this in it self is an art. When customer got his head from one of thes vendors , the wire had gaps in it of up to . 025, this leader of the diesel vendors told the customer, he would fix it, but that “it was really nothing mor then cosmetic, and it really didn’t mater if the wire came together. ” This is the reason that o-rings don’t hold that, and a variance of protrusion, this variance should not be over . 0005, or half a thousand of a inch
I would really not use the BHJ machine, useless the guy is very experienced, and that leaves most out, including myself. Using a Mill , or even CNC is the best way . that doesn’t mean that a BHJ tool is bad, but it was designed for something entirely different then putting a stainless . 041 wire in to the stainless fire ring of a gasket, it was designed to put this same wire in a dead soft copper gasket, with a receiver grove on the opposite side.
Now on to fire rings, what a joke, if you can’t hold it in with a good o-ring job, then the next step is not this , its is attempt to copy something that is way out of date in formula one racing from the fifties. They now use something that only a few, on here know or understand, and is a extreme that is not need in drag racing, but is necessary in extreme pulling, John Russin at Buddha Power and Brian Block both pioneered bringing this to diesels, and few if any know about it, and that is all I will say about it, it’s the ultimate, and is expensive, but not needed on any thing a drag racer will ever build.
The next step in the process is to run an o-ring with a copper head gasket and a receiver grove, this holds in top fuel racing where the pressures and loads are more then any!!!! Diesel will ever encounter in proper tune , and I stress proper tune , if you run the motor wrong , or incorrect timing excessive then nothing will hold the head in place.
I will address a few of the myths and facts about head gasket seal.
Its not boost levels that kill head gaskets and other parts in high performance diesels, but the amount of cylinder pressure peak spike. These spikes can accrue above the level of the ability to hold containment of this pressure, and when this happens the pressure will go and find the weakest link.
These spikes are caused by excessive timing for that rpm, excessive cylinder loading, meaning the amount of air in volume in the combustion chamber. The more cylinder head and Camshaft technologies catches up, the more air gets in the motors and is not restricted at the port, causing high boost numbers, the lower the boost it will take to achieve these levels of power that need better combustion containment systems. If you take a 90 psi diesel engine with twins, with a stock head and camshaft, and introduce the latest cams from say Bullet/RAYMAC , or Russin, you will lose boost, put a ported head and you loose more boost. This is if you add no more fuel. Now if you add a real cam, meaning clearance the pistons, and do a real ported head like Ray Little or RAYMAC is putting out the door, or some like Russin is doing, and the rest are just grinding metal for effect, making it look pretty, because I’ve had their stuff on the flow bench, and the bench is very cruel to their work. You loose a great deal or the restriction you call boost, and put air in the motor .
One example of head air flow is if you were to have a 500 cfm prostock port , on a 5. 9 Cummins you would only need 30 psi to make the power levels that the 1500 hp pulling rigs now use 150 lbs to make that power
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Who thinks the Steelers are going to win next week?
Steelers!!!
Yeah, I forget nobody is as smart as you.
Say Comp, why you bidding on old junk Cummins parts on Ebay??
I noticed your feedback wasnt too hot :-laf :-laf :-laf
Yeah, I forget nobody is as smart as you.
Say Comp, why you bidding on old junk Cummins parts on Ebay??
I noticed your feedback wasnt too hot :-laf :-laf :-laf
94. 3% is what yours looks like.
Do you want the link??
Looks like you don't pay for your items that you bid on!! :-laf :-laf
Dead beat bidder!
I guess you have trouble telling the truth too... we all already knew that.
Do you want the link??
Looks like you don't pay for your items that you bid on!! :-laf :-laf
Dead beat bidder!
I guess you have trouble telling the truth too... we all already knew that.
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Well, between the commercials for COMPs buddys, and his relentless bashing of the "so-called" dieslel leaders that he is behind, did anyone get any good info out of that book about head gaskets?
Oh, yes, copper head gaskets are best because top fuel uses them, and our little Cummins will NEVER see that kind of pressure.
Howsoever, I have yet to see them work in a Street 5. 9 Cummins. Of course, we Diesel people expect things like head gaskets to last more than 5 seconds.
Oh, yes, copper head gaskets are best because top fuel uses them, and our little Cummins will NEVER see that kind of pressure.
Howsoever, I have yet to see them work in a Street 5. 9 Cummins. Of course, we Diesel people expect things like head gaskets to last more than 5 seconds.
must be you playing on ther trying to run a bid up. now you have some pistons lol , Ill bid another day on others , or take them out of the 3 free motors cores cummins just gave me , as to the extent of your diesel know how ,its nothing but keyboard pecking , and I will not be frauded , whne I bid on somthing and am told the shipping is 5 times the amout it should be , ill let them have it , the poor sucker only has a score of 5 , so the bad score hurts him a lot worse then me
COMP461 said:
There, I think that was all that was Diesel related from above... ... ... .
You didnt answer my question:
Did you want a link to your feedback page? 94. 3% :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf
Did you want a link to your feedback page? 94. 3% :-laf :-laf :-laf :-laf
I guess thats a NO.
I'm not sure how many out there have done the receiver groove opposite the oring let alone a double oring(one . 051 & . 041), but I do believe I was the first(Feb '02) or very close to do it, along with being the first or close to doing the oring job with the BHJ tool back in Feb '01 with HVAC, Brandon, rubberneck and myself---I did a lot of research to get the info on width and depths of cuts when we did my head with a double and no receiver groove(held for a year)--HVAC, willyslover, Brad Seitz and myself did it--it has held for 3yrs on my truck with 12mm studs and a copper gasket--seen numerous 75-86psi passes---also I didn't file the ends to be dead on, oh yea they're close but not perfect--seems there's some debate about that, but if you're running a single oring I'd file them dead on, but with the double it seems that it's not as critical--of course each seam is 180* opposite of each other----but there's more to it than just keeping it down--you need to seal those oil and water passages with a copper gasket and that's why quite a few don't use a copper gasket, but HVAC got some info from sportbike and we used the special sauce and it's held for me----but on the other hand there's a ton of trucks in the east who do the single with a stock headgasket and have had tremendous success--unless of course we've been lied to--this could be said for the fire ring also--so one must figure out what they deem as the necessary way to keep the head sealed---so far I'm sold on double orings with receiver groove, studs, copper head gasket and secret sauce----chris
jwilliams3 said:
and you point is , if you deal on eBay , you get dead beats , you ding them they ding you back, you have any thing constructive to add to this thread , you and the other Dirt Draggers , love the keyboard , come on out to the drag racers and you will find out that you knowledge isn’t up to your ego's
I just think its funny.
One post you say 99% but the TRUTH is TOTALLY different.
Says alot about your character.
I never claimed to know it all or even be smart.
Thats why your here to teach all of us "dirt draggers" something.
Do you even drive a Diesel truck on the street Greg?
One post you say 99% but the TRUTH is TOTALLY different.
Says alot about your character.
I never claimed to know it all or even be smart.
Thats why your here to teach all of us "dirt draggers" something.
Do you even drive a Diesel truck on the street Greg?
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as if I look at it that close , it was 99 before some fraud tried to stiff me on a freight bill, now his is about 60 % , big deal, you have any thing to add to this thread , or are you like sleddie dirt dragger , just because I'm here to disrupt the thread . Seams to be sleddie deal, now you.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
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