pin weight too heavy?

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

at least in montana dot could give a rats a$$ about what that tag says your door jam. they go lbs per square in. when i stopped and asked our local dot cop he said with a single tire pickup with 285's on it i could have 5k per axle.



i showed him that my rear axle is rated at 8k and my front axle is 5400lbs. he didn't care i also showed him that the tires were 3240 per tire again he said it didn't matter.



i still think it's funny that my dana 80 is rated at 8k, that is a dana rating that's what the brakes are built for. but i only have a gvw of 8800.





jim

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I used to be concerned about speed limits too - until I wised up and realized the CHP wasn't REALLY concerned about speed - those signs posting speed limits are really only "general guides" and if I'm driving safely and traffic is light, 20-30 MPH over the posted limit is really no big deal, and no one will care...



Silly?



UNH-HUH - just as are those OTHER rationalizations about those "weight guides"...



Drive what and how ya please - severely overloaded or otherwise - but DON'T insult the intelligence of the REST of us with senseless drivel!



Flame on, but that's the way *I* see it!

 

[PatrickCampbell]

Stay under your tire limit and axle limit and you will be fine.



Rear tires are usually 3042#*2 = 6084#.



Lots of tools, full tank of gas and the wife gives a rear axle weight of 3000 (get on a CAT scale to find out exactly), leaves a 3084# pin weight and you're still good. Inflate the tires appropriately though.



GCW is advertising. Even GVW is partially advertising.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

UNH-HUH - just as are those OTHER rationalizations about those "weight guides"...



Drive what and how ya please - severely overloaded or otherwise - but DON'T insult the intelligence of the REST of us with senseless drivel!



Flame on, but that's the way *I* see it!

Gary,

Please try to find the CVC that states exceeding the GVWR or GCWR from the manufacturer is grounds for a citation. AFAIK it's not there.



Brian

 

[NIsaacs]

Gary, speed limits are legal vehicle issues, not factory GVW's, which are not. Those coal hauler trucks in Utah that pull two full sized doubles or the trucks that pull standard sized triple's or the 9 & 10 axle lowboys that haul heavy equipment are not rated by the factory for that much GCW. I am not recomending people to exceed thier trucks tow ratings or that it is safe. I am saying however, that I do it and that it is being done daily without legal lawenforcment type issues.



"NICK"

 

[KBalzuweit]

Just do not go over what your state lic plate. Thats they way to not get a ticket. I had a buddy that was under on his weights ( as far as dodge specs go) but was over when loaded by state truck plates go. They do not like that. Put the correct plate on the truck and trailer and roll on!!!

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

one trick we do is to license the trailer for 20k. we do it to everything from a motorcycle trailer to 30' flatbeds. when a buddy of mine bought a 24k flatbed he went to license it and he was trying to save some $. he was just going to put 15k on it and it was over $200. the lady at the desk said why don't we try it at 20k which is the lowest amount to be commercial. he had to pay $35.



dot still dozen't care what's it's licensed for, they still look at contact patch of your tires. i'm sure you could get a ticket if your under licensed but just because you are licensed for 40k doesn't mean you can haul 40k. btw between my truck and trailer i'm payed up to 40k. 20k for the truck and 20k for the trailer.



jim

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Tho' I have no documentation to back it up, I seriously suspect makers arrive at GVWR by use of a number of factors - some dictated by government regs, others by warranty coverage vs potential damage created by overweight conditions - and all that is before legalities are even considered!



I would imagine parameters used in establishing weight ratings include ability to stop, and accellerate within specified distances, manuever within spec boundries in emergency situations, as well as ability to also do the above in adverse weather conditions of rain or snow - just because you USUALLY travel in sunny weather doesn't mean the weather or road conditions won't change during your travels...



Sure, I don't always come to a full stop at a stop sign, sometimes go slightly above the posted speed limits - I fully recognize the issues involved, and consider MYSELF as the offending party, and I *dern sure* don't recommend others to do as I do - my primary issue here is the DANGER in seriously ignoring clearly provided weight limits, and then brashly recommending it's perfectly OK for others to do the same - that's reckless and dangerous - to them and those sharing the roadways with them...



It only takes *ONE* miscalculation or moment of inattention to kill you, or someone next to you - driving over weight ratings might greatly multiply that risk - is it really worth it?



Would you still feel the same if the one at risk is YOU or someone near and dear to you? Think about it!

 

[SFranzer]

I think this subject comes up often because, like me when other 3/4 ton owners look into pulling a fifth wheel they quickly realize they can't get anywhere close to GTWR or GCWR without exceeding GVWR. From there the rational is to start a threat and ask the question why is the GVWR so low on these trucks. What exactly is it that I'm doing by going over or towing right at this weight? We are well under GAWR and tire rating.



Since the individual that started this threat has an '04 3/4 ton I'll ask this question. The '04 3/4 ton has a GVWR of 9000 the '04 SRW 1 ton has a GVWR of 9900. The front and rear axle ratings are 40 and 50 pounds more respectively on the 1 ton. 40+50=90 not 900! Are these even different trucks, other than the 2500 and 3500 on the side? Someone who knows more about the 3rd Gen can answer that.



As for airbags, if you have to install them to restore your trucks ride stance this should tell you something. Anything you do to your truck will not change the GVWR on the door jam.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I think this subject comes up often because, like me when other 3/4 ton owners look into pulling a fifth wheel they quickly realize they can't get anywhere close to GTWR or GCWR without exceeding GVWR. From there the rational is to start a threat and ask the question why is the GVWR so low on these trucks. What exactly is it that I'm doing by going over or towing right at this weight? We are well under GAWR and tire rating. "



Actually, I personally think it's a bit more basic. Guys buy a truck and trailer - then quickly realize they are above manufacturers recomendations, so they want to see what others are doing, sorta hoping to get a majority to reassure them what they're doing is just fine. After all we see rigs as apparently overloaded as ours on the road every day, right?



Sure, it's bad news to spend $30-$40,000 on a nice truck and the same on a trailer - only to discover you don't really have enough tow vehicle!



Weight ratings are far more than the specific individividual ratings of scattered components, but involve the entire vehicle - just pointing at the ratings of the rear tires on the truck, or the springs might well ignore other more serious suspension issues not considered as part of the total package.



Towing overloaded just because we see many others doing it, or because a majority of random RVers say it's OK to ignore clear GVWR doesn't really make it right OR safe.

 

[SFranzer]

I had the truck first, then educated myself through this and other forums about ratings. I bought a fifth wheel that put me under GVWR. If I tow at GVWR or over I can tell what it is that put me over and by how much. I will agree that there are those who make the mistake of buying what they think they can tow, only to find out later they are over.



As for scattered component ratings? If they don't get them from there, where do they get them? I posed the questions because these trucks aren't that different. Same chassis, same drivetrain etc. , The Dana 80 in my 3/4 ton is the same Dana 80 in the 1 ton. The dual wheels give you a higher axle rating, the front axles are larger, therefore a higher GVWR (scattered components).

 

[NIsaacs]

If the factory GVW & GCW is a locked in, gospel legal and safety issue, why do they change without safety in mind when they change? The 1994 Dodge towing guide says a 2500, V10 equipped pickup can tow 19,000 pounds GCW. However the same pickup equiped with a Cummins and a 3. 54 rear axle ratio is only good for 14,500. So I contend that I can unhook that Gasser, hook up the Cummins and pull his load without becoming a safety hazzard or have legal issues. Yet the difference in load weight is 4500 lbs, or grossly overloaded as some would say. I will stick to my reasoning on factory tow guides.



"IF IT AIN'T CUMMINS POWERED, IT AIN'T A TRUCK"



"NICK"

 

[NVR FNSH]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Tho' I have no documentation to back it up, I seriously suspect makers arrive at GVWR by use of a number of factors - some dictated by government regs, others by warranty coverage vs potential damage created by overweight conditions - and all that is before legalities are even considered!



I would imagine parameters used in establishing weight ratings include ability to stop, and accellerate within specified distances, manuever within spec boundries in emergency situations, as well as ability to also do the above in adverse weather conditions of rain or snow - just because you USUALLY travel in sunny weather doesn't mean the weather or road conditions won't change during your travels...

Gary I agree that manufacturers use a multitude of resources/requirements to determine GVWR/GCWR but for the most part vehicle codes don't require abiding by those numbers - I believe some states do cite the manufactures GVWR/GCWR for being overloaded but CA isn't one of them. CA uses tire weight per area (road damage) and axle ratings. I don't think that position is necessarily correct but it's the way it is.



Look at my posts and you'll see that I am not a proponent of towing grossly over the manufacturers GCWR/GVWR (I've been called a stupid city slicker engineer or something to that extent because I don't believe that 'a farmer just has to use what's available is a good excuse) but I'm not going to worry about someone that's at 21K (like myself) when the GCWR is 20K. I am concerned when guys are grossing 36K with a light duty truck - just not enough safety margin for my taste.



Brian

 

[tgrfan2]

You will be fine. Airbags will help in leveling the rig. My fiver was listed at 2100# pin wgt by Keystone. With all our stuff including generator my pin wgt is 2670#. I know the wgt police will go nuts, but a Dot licensed hauler delivered steel to us a few months ago. He was pulling a 24' Longhorn gooseneck equipment trailer with a F350 CC LB dually PSD auto. I knew he had to pass several weigh stations getting to us and was obviously over GCWR. I asked him about this and he said DOT never looked at his door. All they are interested in was his tags which gave him 26K GC. He said he was caught in NC at over 28K and had to pay a fine before they let him proceed with his cargo! Now this is a large commercial hauler with a state name on the door. I am sure he has to have proper insurance to operate and I am sure the insurance co is aware of his rig and tags.

 

[ntillm01]

A couple of things I'd like to add:



V-10 vs Cummins: If I'm not mistaken, the Cummins is much heavier than any of the other gas engine options. So it loads up the "same axles, springs etc. " and frame (don't forget the rating of that!) putting the weight you can add to the truck at a lower number to begin with. These truck are heavy empty to begin with!



GCWR Advertising: There is a chart in my owner handbook (2001) that list the recommended GCWR for all the engine/transmission/cab/ratio combinations. The limiting factor seems to be the transmission and axle ratio, of which the automatic 3. 55 has the lowest rating. This number may not be on the radar of the DOT and probably is published for the manufacturer CYA. The fact that it doesn't appear on the door label means it's not a DOT requirement. (?)



Dual wheels: It was written somewhere that this doubles the tire rating. No, it does not. There are two ratings on every tire that state the maximum recommended for the tire when used as A) single and B) dual. I was surprised the number is not that different when used as a dual. It's on all the trailer tires I've seen too. Personnally, I chose them for stability, and they look cool.

 

[SFranzer]

Take a look at this months Trailer Life. It has Fords answer about GVWR. I copied it off of thread on RV.net.



'That number is the maximum weight our test engineers know a particular model can safely negotiate an accident-avoidance maneuver. Going beyond that number places people and property at risk should anything go wrong on the road. '"



No mentions of speed or what the actual maneuver is.





Maybe the tool box and the dog need to start staying at home!

 

[klenger]

SFranzer's comment makes sense. You never want to design a conusmer product to operate right at it's maximum capacity. In the case of our trucks, consider a 3/4 ton truck that is loaded up to it's max 8800 lb GVWR driving down the road a reasonable rate of speed and all of a sudden you drive thru a dip in the road that produces a 1. 3 G force (just pulled that number out of thin air) on the truck as you exit the dip. Now, your truck's effective weight is 11,440 lbs. The engineers designed the truck to handle this load under this condition. Take the same truck and overload it by 1000 lbs, and at 1. 3 G, the effective load is 12,740 lbs. Add in a fast swerve around a road hazzard and the problem becomes even worse. These numbers are for example only as I have no idea what numbers the engineers actually use, but the conecpt is the same.



Whlie I am not recommending exceeding vehicle weight ratings, an overloaded vehicle on a short trip at low speeds on an empty road should avoid the situations that might otherwise cause a failure.

 

[FDrake]

I had a 2002 Dodge Ram2500 equipped with a trailer and camper package. The GVWR was STILL 8800#. When I towed my 5th wheel I was 400# OVER the GVWR and just 500# UNDER the GCVW. I wasn't comfy with that and traded the 02 Dodge with 7800 miles on it for a new 04 Dodge Ram3500 DRW HO /48re. The way is handles is like a difference of night and day. If you are over any weight limit, you are OVER period. Maybe it is time for an upgrade.

Frank

 

[PatrickCampbell]

Originally posted by FDrake

I had a 2002 Dodge Ram2500 equipped with a trailer and camper package. The GVWR was STILL 8800#. When I towed my 5th wheel I was 400# OVER the GVWR and just 500# UNDER the GCVW. I wasn't comfy with that and traded the 02 Dodge with 7800 miles on it for a new 04 Dodge Ram3500 DRW HO /48re. The way is handles is like a difference of night and day. If you are over any weight limit, you are OVER period. Maybe it is time for an upgrade.

Frank

The GVW on my truck is 9000. Where does this number come from?



My truck weighs 7500 right now, that is loaded up with tools, fluidsl, fuel, springs, hitch, this that and the other, with 4500# on the front axle and 3000# on the rear axle.



Stock tires are rated for 3000 EACH on the rear, not total!... I can't see why I shouldn't be able to legally run a 10,500 GVW (for a 4500# front weight and 6000# rear weight), still be within the axle, tire, spring and brake ratings.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I can't see why I shouldn't be able to legally run a 10,500 GVW (for a 4500# front weight and 6000# rear weight), still be within the axle, tire, spring and brake ratings.



UMMmmm - perhaps because the GVWR is set by engineers using a BROAD range of parameters BEYOND the simple ratings of a set of tires - or other single-issue ratings - many paremeters undoubtedly set by governmental/safety agencies...



It really doesn't make much difference what you or I "see" as reasonable - the rating is established by the only one recognized and responsible to do so - the MAKER of the the vehicle using established industry standards to do do - your opinion, or mine, is totally irrelevant to the issue...