Planning for "Shop" build - Give me your suggestions!

[rholcom2]

Hello TDR Nation, it has been a while since my last thread here on the TDR. I have been absent, somewhat the fault of my wife's aspirations to become a Nurse Practitioner. It seems the cost of Grad School is approximately 1 paid for CTD (who knew) . Never the less my CTD was sold to pay for her grad school, thus my absence. With her finishing school on May 1 we are approaching the timeframe that we have slated to build our new "shop".



Allow me to preface this discussion by saying that I am a project manager for a general contractor. In my position I travel extensively throughout the south and southeast. Most projects that I will be assigned to will be ~2 years in duration and requires me to relocate to the town or city in which the project is being built. Therefore, we are planning on downsizing from our house to an "apartment" built in the "shop".



I have attached a preliminary layout of, what we call in Indiana a "pole barn" but what some may refer to as a "shop" that we are pondering on building. The structure its self will be built utilizing 4"x6" or 6"x6" (vertically) treated posts with purlins (horizontally between the posts, usually 2"x4") with sheet metal siding screwed to the purlins. I would like to use cathedral trusses over the "apartment" area to give higher head room for the 2nd floor bedrooms. Also, I thought it might be a good idea to buy attic trusses for over the shop area for some additional storage space or living space. At this time it is just my wife and I, but plan on having a family in the coming years.



Once the structure is erected we will pour the concrete slab floor, frame in between the poles to insulate, and build the Apartment inside. I would like to point out that we will use the Precast Concrete Columns (such as the Perma-Column, Perma-Column: Pre-cast concrete columns for post frame building industry - Stop rotten posts - Replace rotten posts - Post Frame Construction - Pole Barn - Pole Building - Post Replacement) to circumvent any direct soil to pole contact. At this time I am pondering the installation of a radiant floor heating system vs. a traditional forced air system in the "apartment" and a gas furnace or wood pellet furnace in the shop area (since it will not need to run continuously). Regardless of weather or not I utilize the radiant floor heat I do believe I will install the pex tubing in the floor. The installers I have talked to believe the barn should be in 4 zones and will cost ~$3,500 to install (excluding the boiler and valve system). I have been researching (with little luck) the use of an Electric Modulated Boiler for use as a heat source if the radiant floor heat was pursued. I am doing this somewhat because of our lifestyle, an outdoor wood boiler would not fit as we are only home about every 3 weeks or so, sometimes longer. Also, because I would rather not have to pay a gas bill to have LP delivered and Natural Gas is not available in our area. Along with the radiant floor heating system the insulation around the perimeter of the building, as well as an underslab vapor barrier would be utilized. Do any of you out there have a history not only with radiant floor heat but with an electric boiler system? I would appreciate any and all of your suggestions/experiences.



I realize the attachment does not have any dimension lines, maybe I need to go ahead and hand write in the dimensions. For reference the apartment is 20'x48', thus leaving a 48'x44' "shop area. This would be used to park the Harley, Japanese Mini-Truck (currently saving up for one), trailers, and a "new-to-me" CTD (probably an 06 or early 07, once I have saved up). Also, we will use it for parties (of the bachelor kind, Christmas, birthdays, BBQ's, any reason!).



So, here it is fellas. Put your mark on my "shop" with your suggestions and experience. Oh, one other important thing to point out is our build time frame. We currently have our house on the market (this "shop" will be located on a 10 acre tract in our hometown, close to family); once the house is sold or we decide it is time to move forward we will pull the trigger on building the shell, and pouring the concrete. Any and all suggestions are welcomed, should pictures of your "shop" help please feel free to post them or email as you see fit.



Thank you very much!!

 

[HGreen]

Since you will not be there all the time, you should consider how you will winterize the space when you are gone. I would recommend that you avoid plumbing on the outside walls (like the corner shower) and a means to drain everything just in care of extended sub-zero weather or power failure.



You should provide sufficient ceiling space in the garage area for a future lift. You are smart to provide for all the storage you can create.

 

[Matt400]

I would pour an additional small slab outside oposite the living quarters for the air compressor and cover it. A little extra but pays off with noise reduction both inside the shop and for those in the living area.



The concrete in the area of a potential lift should up to spec for what you might put there, usually 6" with rebar but better to check the lift manufacture.

If you plan to heat the floor watch out for interference when drilling the concrete for a lift.

 

[rbattelle]

While I don't have any specific recommendations or changes (I'll leave that to those with more wisdom!), I'd like to say that's a pretty neat idea. I've always thought one's workshop should be larger than one's living space.

Ryan

 

[Paddy McMahon]

just some thoughts. . pocket door at the pantry /storage. flip the mechanical and the bathroom downstairs w/ the patition wall between to serve for the bath plumbing and the manifold feeds for the pex tubing feed & return lines. consider having the stairs w/ out a landing and either a straight run w/ a soffit at the kitchen area below the stairs to maximize living space-the number of risers will make the soffit in the kitchen about 7'-6". My friends who have built similar bldgs had a concrete curb aound the exterior perimeter of the shop w/ curb cuts at the roll up doors and had a raised slab at the living space. Even if it isn,t req'd in your area you may consider having the partition wall separating the mechanical and the garage from the living areas as one hour fire rated construction. Give some thought to wall locations, floor mounted door stops, etc when running the pex zones in the slab. I have radiant heat in my house I designed & built and I love it. I wish I had built a shop area for myself like you are proposing! good luck.

 

[daveshoe]

Thoughts on heating system

Since you are going to be gone for days at a time,there is a way to utilize a boiler to heat your shop. Central Boiler makes a corn boiler that burns corn or wood pellets. The great thing about these boilers is that in the event of a power outage,the unit will restart on its own [propane + spark ignition] when the power returns to service. mine will burn for a week on filling the 11 bushel hopper in stock configuration. I clean mine once a week by shoveling out the ash[about two 5 gallon buckets full],a light scraping,and blow out the heat exchanger with a leaf blower. At $4 a bushel corn,I get about a thousand dollars worth of propane heat for $250 worth of corn. Th unit will pay for itself in 2. 5-3 years at todays corn/propane pricing.

Antifreeze for a system like this would have to be considered as an extra cost because the boiler holds 90 gallons. If you do not use antifreeze,at least keep a water heater as a backup to heat the boiler water above freezing,should you have a flame-out when you are away.

I recommend Central Boiler because there is an excellent dealer in Greenville Ohio that stocks parts should you need them. You do not want to wait a week to get parts for a boiler that sits outside. In times like these,you need to know that your supplier will be around to service the unit.

There is also a 42 bushel hopper available that will let you be gone for longer periods,and a Pax or similar hopper would hold enough fuel for a whole year. Put in a micro switch and an auger to keep the stove filled all season.

 

[RHestand]

I'm a retired carpenter/ gen. contractor, and I did a build-out almost the same as yours for my nephew, near Little Rock.

For his pole building they used structural steel ext. framing,and I built a single story apt. at one of end, using light ga. mtl. framing and D/W. It was very quick and easy. This was about two years ago, and he loves it.

IMO,for the square ft. /dollar, you can't beat pole barns.

Just curious, How much of this project are you planning to do yourself (hands on)?

Are you drawing the plans and specs? If yes I might be able give you some ideas about some of the ideas, and materials we used.

Good Luck, and it looks like a great project.

Ray

PS. I'm from CA,and I still don't know why they build the pole building, then pour the slab, instead of the other way around. I would rather work on conc. , rather than fill dirt. ?

 

[rholcom2]

Good Thoughts.

Thank you very much for all the suggestions. I will try to respond in the most complete manner possible and ask the follow-up questions that have came to mind.

• HGreen - Good point. I had thought of keeping all plumbing on the interior walls, but had not lived up to that in my layout. I have updated the layout and hopefully have mostly solved that issue with the updated layout.
  
• HGreen - A lift is definately on my mind. The 16' sidewall height should allow ample headroom for a lift. Additionally, I have added a "No Floor Heat Tubing" zone to ensure pipes are not severed. Thanks!
  
• Matt400 - Do you think placing the air compressor in the space labeled "mechanical" would be ok. I would definately insulate that room as it will house my water pump, boiler, and pump system for the radiant floor heat.
  
• Paddy - Made a few changes to the layout. For some reason the wife likes the corner staircase. I suppose that will stay. I do plan to utilize the space under the stairs for storage and possibly DVD Players, Dish Recievers, etc. .
  
• Paddy - Radiant Heat - You wouldnt by chance be utilizing any type of electric boiler to feed your heating system? I am trying to find someone who operates a system like this.
  
• daveshoe - Good idea, my family farms corn/beans so a bit of grain would be easy to get my hands on. I like your proposed method of feeding the hopper on the stove, will their stoves hold the ash for ~3-4 weeks worth of neglect?
  
• Paddy - Raised Slab at living area - I encounter this on some of my projects where we have mechanical rooms depressed and the like. This is definately a good idea as we could install a curb at the wall line and leave the shop slab out until we finished the "apartment" thus deferring the cost of the slab. Something to think about!
  
• RHestand - I am planning on having a friend (who builds pole buildings for a living) and his crew put up the barn structure. I will then buy the re-steel (most likely mesh) and pex tubing and prepare the under slab (along with the vapor barrier and foam insulation). I will get someone else to pour the slab. At this time I am planning on framing, wiring, painting, cabinets, doors, plumbing, trim. I will have someone hang and finish the drywall. This is all subject to change depending upon where I am stationed with my job. If I am >8 hours from home I will most likely have to sub more of this out.
  
• RHestand - I am serving as my own "master mind" for this project. Any suggestions on materials would be very helpful. Let me know what products you found to be of value.
  
• RHestand - Slab Install - I think mostly its planning that deterrs people from pouring the slab prior to at least metal. From the looks of my layout and where I want the doors. I will have to get this slab poured before the metal goes on. This will keep us away from having to pay for a concrete pump to get the mud back in the far corners of the building.
  

Thanks to all who have responded. In speaking with a co-worker he suggested that I at least visit the use of "Closed Cell Foam Insulation". I have located some information about this type of insulation. It looks like it may save me some time upfront in getting the building "warm". It would also save me from framing in between the poles. It appears this product could be sprayed directly onto the metal rather than having to install studs to apply roll insulation to. Does anyone have any experience in dealing with this product?



Also, I have attached the most recent layout for your review.



Thanks again, I will keep you updated on my progress.

 

[Paddy McMahon]

the insulation you are asking about is polyicenine foam and it has amazing R value for its relative thickness. regular batt insulation can't even begin to compare to it. It is expensive. You can spray the stuff against the backside of the exterior wall substrate (tin panels?) w/ out any issues. I have certain areas of my home in Idaho all shot with the stuff and I am really pleased with it. I even had the interior of the crawl space foundation stemwall sprayed with the stuff to keep the underside of my house that doubles as a mechanical space as a warm, conditioned space. Yep... I have a small electric boiler and pump that serve the floor heat in my 1900 sq ft home in Idaho. I went with electric because I knew propane would not be getting cheaper and I set up the house to ultimately have an array of PV panels that will get me off the electrical grid during the daytime.

 

[RHestand]

A few of the things we did (To expedite things, I only had two weeks) was to build and d/w the full ht. demising wall, fur the int. per. walls (25 ga. hat chnl, attached to horiz. perlins @ 4'OC, R-30 FGlass ins. & 1/2" d/w) to 9'ht. Then we framed & d/w the per. bthrm. walls also to 9'ht.

I then inst. a monolithic susp. T-bar clng. @8'11" ht. in the entire living area. We then frmed & d/w all the other walls from conc. floor, to T-bar.

When I had to leave, all walls,doors, rough elect. & plmbng. was done. He and his Dad did the painting, finish plumbing & elect. and kitchen cabs. (Home Depot: Lost in transit. )

I used all pre-hung doors, fibergls. shower stall, Pvc. plumbing, Romex wiring, a window AC unit, and a wall heater.

Our large family that live in the area all said we couldn't get it done, in that time frame.

With a lot of planning and phone conversations before I even got there, and fourteen very long days, we fooled them.

Do to his health, he was on a very tight budget. It's not real fancy, but it works well for him.

I hope this helps some. I know with yours being a two story project,your first floor frmng. etc. will be much different structurally, but this might give you some ideas.

Any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Ray

 

[rholcom2]

Research Update

I thought I would post a few notes on the progress of my research. As stated above I would like to stay away from having a gas bill and our lifestyle doesn’t fit a wood burning stove. That being said I had been researching the use of an electric boiler to provide hot water for the radiant floor heat. Earlier in the week I contacted a Heating and Cooling company that lead me to a WaterFurnace geothermal unit. He advised that WaterFurnace produces a model that offers a "Water to Water Exchange” thereby supplying hot water to be circulated through the radiant floor heating tubes. I provided him with my layout and he is pricing up a system. With this system he stated that it can perform a dual role of providing forced air conditioning during the summer months. I hope this is the case as I have not located any information on the WaterFurnace website that leads me to believe that their products accommodate a tandem installation of a "Water to Water" and "Water to Air" exchangers. I should be getting some pricing in on this system so I will have a better idea of cost. I am definitely pumped about learning of a geothermal alternative. My parents have a WaterFurnace in their house (~7 years old) their electric bills are very comparable to my house (which is heated by gas) and I have to pay a gas bill in addition to lights. This not to mention the rebate the Electric Companies offer for the installation of such a unit.



In addition to researching the heating and cooling I also spoke with a couple of reps that install Closed Cell Foam Insulation. As I understand it is far superior to batt or roll insulation. And in this application it could be applied directly to the exterior sheet metal and would not require framing to be attached to. This foam insulation is also used in "below grade" applications such as under the floor slab and foundation "stem" walls. Both of the reps advised this product runs ~$1. 00/sf installed. With this type of cost I calculated that insulating under the floor slab alone would be just under $3,100. So, it is definitely a "pricey" product, and I will need to consider how its cost fits in with my budget.



Anyone who has experience with either of these two products please feel free to give some of your suggestions. I have also spoke with the electric company about getting the underground electric service to the building and hope to talk with an excavator about cutting the drive in for me. I met a guy this weekend who purchased reclaimed asphalt that he used as a "topping" gravel for his drive. He placed the asphalt during the summer over his base stone (which was creek rock) and rented a roller. He says it has held up 3 years and looks nearly like a blacktop driveway. This reclaimed asphalt is very comparable to the cost of #53's at ~$9. 00/TN. I hope to be able to do the same for my drive.

 

[Darrenf]

i just ran across this post and saw exactly what you're looking for here in Colorado.



Coloproperty.com and search for MLS #584377



Sure made me think awhile... .

 

[tgordon]

I did a search for corn boilers on-line and several different ones showed up for heat.



You may want a small exterior door for the shop area so you don't have to open a big door, or go through the "house".



I see no reason why you couldn't do concrete after the sides are on, the 12x16 door is plenty large, other than dealing with the pex tube.



Possibly sectioning off the "garage" area so as you are welding, grinding, etc your other vehicles are not getting covered with by products.



Air tight living quarters to keep shop smells out.

 

[rholcom2]

Finally

After many months of me not updating everyone on the happenings surrounding the above "Shop" build, I thought it appropriate to update y'all. Since last posting our house sold and we were able to go ahead and start on "The Barn" as we call it. I was able to incorporate many of the suggestions here and dropped a few of my ideas or "requirements" after speaking with friends who own something similar (or just a well insulated barn). So, here it goes.



Pictures of the build can be viewed at Picasa Web Albums - Ryan - Barn



The barn was started on August 17, 2009 by installing the "Perma-Columns"; they are precast concrete posts that are placed in the ground acting as the foundation for the building. We decided to put a traditional shingled roof on it due to future leak concerns with metal roof fasteners, therefore trusses were set at 2' oc. With no city water at the location we purchased a precast cistern. We will collect water off of the roof for showers, toilets, laundry, etc. but will have to purchase drinking water. I do have a whole house filter and softener from our old home that I will be installing which should clean up the water quite a bit. As for the collected water I plumbed the downspouts to run through a "filter" made of 36" Reinforced Concrete Pipe filled with pea gravel and bricked up on the ends. My hope is this filter will remove the large particles (leaves, sticks, etc. ) prior to hitting the cistern.



I did abandon the idea of floor heat. After speaking with a couple of different sales people about their respective systems I finally acknowledged that in floor heat does not fit our lifestyle. As mentioned before we travel during the week sometimes only getting home 1 weekend a month. So, an outdoor wood boiler defiantly did not fit. With that we are going with an electric heat pump with a gas back-up in the living area and the shop will be heated with a 150K BTU Reznor gas (LP) heater. I purchased an LP tank and will be able to buy from the cheapest company.



At this point the framing is ~90% complete. We are waiting on some Tub surrounds and the HVAC to be installed to complete the framing. My dad and I just completed wiring the upstairs this past weekend. By the first of the year I hope to have all the electric complete as well as shop lighting and air lines. The garage doors are ordered and should be in next week.



I will update the group with pictures as we continue.

 

[kenny61]

Good luck on yours! I've been building mine for about 3 years now and this is as far as I got. I was gonna start installing windows and siding today but it 23 degrees out and supposed to be warmer next week so why freeze?

 

[cmills]

Ryan, I actually live in a pole barn also, one problem I had was with insurance, most insurance companies don't like the idea of pole barns as dwelling places due to fact that they don't have a regular foundation, and they are worried them being able to withstand high winds. I was finally able to get good home insurance with a good premium but at first it was hard because they had to go to outside companies which didn't have as good as coverage and much higher premiums.

 

[rholcom2]

Kenny61, I read a thread that you were participating in regarding your shop. Hopefully it will warm up there in NY and you will be able to at least keep the wind from blowing through!



Thanks for the heads-up cmills, I did check on this with my current Home Owners insurance provider. He stated there are several around and he has a company that will write them. Hopefully it will be this easy when we get down to finalizing the policy! I dont count on it though.



Otterbein, I went to school at Purdue and found friends with several locals. We actually went up to Otterbein a couple of times.

 

[cmills]

Kenny61, I read a thread that you were participating in regarding your shop. Hopefully it will warm up there in NY and you will be able to at least keep the wind from blowing through!



Thanks for the heads-up cmills, I did check on this with my current Home Owners insurance provider. He stated there are several around and he has a company that will write them. Hopefully it will be this easy when we get down to finalizing the policy! I dont count on it though.



Otterbein, I went to school at Purdue and found friends with several locals. We actually went up to Otterbein a couple of times.

Thats cool, I guess it really is a small world.

 

[EricBu12]

Rholcom2

Looked through your pictures and I am very impressed. . What a very simple and very useful design! . . Can you give me a ballpark figure of cost of materials on your size and design to get the structure up?.

 

[Grizzly]

Since you have 10 acres, I suggest that you build a separate living quarters from the shop. Shops have a higher incidence of fire and other hazards. Also make the living quarters such that you can expand it as your family grows. That may already be too late.