Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Plate position for max power

[Woodenhead]

I always thought that to make the most power with a given cam plate it had to be slid full forward (provided you have air to burn the fuel).



I'm pretty sure I read awhile back that dyno tests show max. power a bit back from full forward (around 0. 040")



I understand the basics of our pump/governor setup but can someone please explain this one for me. I spent the past 1. 5hrs searching the forums in an effort to avoid yet another plate question.



Right now my plate's full forward and I plan to crank the H20/meth to 200psi to get all I can get from my setup but now I'm wondering if a different plate position will give me more.





Thanks in advance.

Mike

 

[SEmerson]

Where the lever hits the plate could be the differnce your seeing. Sliding the plate farward will make the lever hit lower.

 

[Deezul1]

Every truck has a sweet spot for the plate and its different on most of them, experiment a little and you will find it.

 

[ronco]

When I installed my #6 plate a few months ago, my stock plate was within . 020 of full forward. The new plate is fully forward.

Always wondered if that was normal for stock plate position.



Ronco

 

[Jim Fulmer]

You have a #10, put it at . 050 forward from the stock position and go for a ride, come back and put . 010 to. 020 more in it and try that, same location same parameters ect, once you get this worked out..... let the water/meth loose



Were is your timing at and what gasket do you have!



Jim

 

[Woodenhead]

Thanks for the replies fellas.



Jim, my timing is at 14. 5deg and I think it may have slipped back because I've got the cold sputters again. I know I should have it set to at least 15. 5-16 and plan to have it done when I get time.



I still have the stock head gasket, is this a potential problem? I thought the head gasket didn't typically become a problem until heavy timing (25+) or big boost with twins.



I'm going to try your plate position suggestions soon.



Can someone please explain why full forward isn't max. fuel on the plate?



Got a Ford guy at work that wants to have a go at it. He's got with a 6. 0 PS with a turbo and chip done and getting to put in his 3 stage propane. So I'd like to ring out every pony I got.



Thanks again,

Mike

 

[JGheen]

Originally posted by Woodenhead





Can someone please explain why full forward isn't max. fuel on the plate?



Got a Ford guy at work that wants to have a go at it. He's got with a 6. 0 PS with a turbo and chip done and getting to put in his 3 stage propane. So I'd like to ring out every pony I got.



Thanks again,

Mike

The plate is there to control the fueling. If you remove it and run the pump with no plate, THEN you will get FULL fueling because then the governor lever will have no profile to run up, so it will be running at it very maximum of rack travel. It can be dangerous, so watch those EGTs.

If you really want to kick that 6. 0 PS, which in my opinion should be very easy with the mods you have, just run no plate for full fueling and just try to control it with your foot. Don't have much experience with water/meth, but I would assume if you inject it at the right time it should decrease your EGTs a bit to be in the safe range with no plate, but don't quote me on that. Does anyone know if what I just said is true about the water/meth cooling EGTs??

 

[Berrigan]

Mike, How do you like the h20 meth? Where do you get your methanol? Did it lower your egt? Any noticable power gains, Do you tow with it? Ive been considering it and it would be nice to hear your experiences. Thanks Bill

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Woodenhead



If you run your timing at 15-16 you should have no issues even with the water/meth but this is no guarantee as the meth acts like more timing in the motor but I have not seen or heard of an issue yet.



Berrigan



On the water/meth typically you will see a 50-70 HP gain using a 50/50 mix(you can get methanol it at a racing fuel place) and a 200 degree drop, I have seen a low of 32 hp in full fuel with my old twins and a high of 124hp running in valet, right now I'm at a 67 HP gain. I have a bud here in OKC with a 97' 5 speed dually that's at 375 hp on fuel and 445 with water meth, this is with a plate, Gov springs, timing at 16 ish, stock turbo, injectors and pump.



Jim





http://www.snowperformance.net/forum/

 

[98rammer]

a #0 plate full forward (or no plate) makes less power than with the #0 pulled back some i believe is due to dumping too much fuel too late (with relatively good power, not a puller with 40* of timing, etc. ). it then "dirties" up the carge air coming in hence resulting in less power.

close?



Tom

 

[Woodenhead]

Once again, thanks for the good info.



Berrigan

I have not towed with the H2O meth. I just use it for hot rodding and pure entertainment . It did help with EGT's. The way I look at it is if you are at your max for fuel/egt and you don't want to dump in more fuel in cause your egts are getting toasty the H2O meth is a way to get more power without higher EGTs.



Here is a beauty post with plenty of good info. You've probably already read it.

As far as buying meth goes, I've just been using the -40 wiper fluid which is around 50/50 but I've heard doesn't give the same hp increases as a true 50/50 mix of meth/water.





Jim



I'll play with the plate and injection for now. I'm in NC right now but in a month or so when I'm back in Wa I'll go back on the Dyno then get the timing up to 16 and see what happens. At least then if the gasket goes south it won't be big deal.





Everyones ideas on the explanation with plate positions make some sense but still no solid explanation.



I've got a used P7100 in the garage, looks like it's time to gut it for educational purposes when I get home .



Thanks again.

Mike

 

[Berrigan]

Woodenhead, and Jim Fulmer



Do you guys think I could safely tow heavy with my setup, see sig, plus add the water/meth. I dont have the time and money you guys do, and loosing a head gasket is not where I want to go. I want to keep the water meth off till I get over 2000 rpm. ( I can slip my clutch now in 4th and 5th when cold. ) When the clutch is warmed up it holds. I was talking to Matt Snow with an idea I had and that was to put a throttle position sensor to make the circuit at wot. Then if boost was over say 25psi the pump would come on. Or Im I just a cheap a$$ and need to go buy a sbc? what do you think Bill

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I thought you had a clutch in it from reading the sig, that's what I would do first.



P. S. Don't think I'm rich this is an evolution.



Jim

 

[Woodenhead]

Berrigan



I'm by no means an expert with the H2o/meth just know what I learned here and by playing with my own rig, but here goes...



I think you'd be safe installing the water meth setup on your truck but...



Sounds like your clutch is dangerously close to the edge with your power level as is, if I were you I'd plan to get a new one soon. Especially if towing with your setup unless there's something different about the '98 12 valve stock clutch than my '96 stocker. The more you baby it and keep yer foot out of it the longer it'll hang around.



Now with that said, if you install the H20/meth injection I'd say run water only (till you get a clutch) to help with your EGTs but not make a significant power difference. Human nature will likely take over and you'll end up burning some meth to see the power difference and you'll probably end up needing a new clutch anyway .



IMHO don't bother with the RPM limiting deal for the water injection. You only want to start injecting water (or mixture) when you've got plenty of fuel to go with it. If you don't have sufficient fuel the water will quench the combustion process meaning the cyl. temp will be to low to burn diesel effectively, then you lose power and the motor stumbles.



The kit comes with a pressure switch that you can set to come on at say 25psi boost pressure. At 25 psi you should have enough fuel to go with the water. The pressure switch is adjustable so you can fiddle with the on/off pressure. This way it should effectively help with EGTs during normal driving like towing up hill, not just when your foots on the floor.



It's possible to have the RPMs up (above say 2000) yet not have enough fuel to go with the water in which case you'd be stumbling. However, when there's boost, there's fuel. It's good to think outside the box though.



Hope I've got things straight here and this all makes sense. Jim seems to be one of the pioneers/guru with the H20/meth on our trucks so hopefully he'll set things straight if I'm off here.



Take it easy

Mike

 

[TPCDrafting]

Make sure your gov. lever is properly adjusted as well. I had to do mine as it was meeting the plate at the very bottom and not coming up as far as it should. Adjusting that little screw made a huge difference. My 11 plate is about halfway forward and I'm starting to slip the clutch after a month of running around mostly empty and occasionaly pulling small loads.



Those with water/meth: I'm curious if anyone has done any oil analisys before/after. I've been checking the threads, but I haven't found anything yet.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

To reiterate on the Gov arm issue I had a guy call me the other day saying he had a Banks kit put on his truck and it didn't so well till about 1900-2000 when pulling his 5th but when it did it did well and got good mileage on the road ect. I kind of knew what was happening here and of course it needed timing, so I went for a drive and it was doggy till 1900 then came on fine and there wasn't much throttle response(timing) so I adjusted the Gov arm as it was diving under the plate (that looked like a TST 5 or 6) the base timing was at 11. 5 (94 5 speed) so now it's at 16 and needless to say 2 1/2 hours later when he went home is was a different truck, I set it up tame on the AFC and plate but it still needs 3K's, 30 psi boost and 1050 on EGT's till 85 or so with them in the truck with me, there retired



Should have taken them a ride in mine



Jim

 

[Berrigan]

Woodenhead and Jim Fulmer



Thanks for your responces.



I know I need a clutch, Im just in denial.

The water meth sounds like something I want to do but I guess the clutch should be first. Bill

 

[Mile High Smoker]

http://www.atsdiesel.com/news/news.html



I just wanted top add a potential resource for the H2O/Meth discussion. The attached link is for the ATS web site's 2004 tech summit held in Feb of this year. Matt from Snow Performance gave a great presentation outlining the system that you are using. The presentation was video taped and I think that you might be able to download the presentation.

 

[Swayse]

Anybody know if you can use some NOS on top of water injection. Sounds kinda like they do the same thing, cool down and help the diesel burn more completely. I wanna spray (nos) at the strip and run water injection on the street. But I'm not sure if I can run both at the same time.