Portable Genset noise

[BK]

Snow King,



I know the Forest Service (FS) has a standard for spark arresting mufflers, but I haven't seen one for noise. Coleman and Honda both state they meet the FS standard for the muffler. . spark arresting...

And I've only seen the portable gen sets advertise that they meet the FS spark arrest specs... nothing else. . even the Honda never said anything about a FS noise specs.



If I remember right. . it was 68db for the noise out of the Coleman (53 for the Honda!), and 68db being equal to the level of a normal conversation between adults, I cant see how that would be "too" high for a FS noise spec (which I havent seen... not that it doesn't exist and I just havent seen it referenced by the gen set manufacturers)



I cant argue about how nice the Honda is, I put it at the top of my list for 1Kw units (disregarding cost)... . for noise and weight and... . well... it's a Honda. And I think I will spend the extra $$ to get the weight and noise reduction over the Coleman. My buddy bought the Coleman, and for a near 2Kw unit @ less than 400 bucks it worth looking at.

 

[SnoKing]

I strongly disagree. Having owned both! The Coleman could be heard all over the camp ground. Noise doubles every 3 DB Honda EU1000 is 52-57dB.



"EU Series model feature a load-dependent speed control-type electronic governor that offers excellent fuel economy by automatically maintaining engine speed at the optimum level given the usage load. This not only reduces fuel consumption and operating noise in the normal usage range, it also keeps exhaust emissions to levels that clear even the most strictest U. S. EPA environmental standards"



Check the bearings on the Coleman, no stop that is bushings!



This is the Turbo Diesel Register for a quality product, why would you tell someone to buy a POS. As my wife just said, "it was embarrassing running the Coleman in a camp ground".



If one needs 2K Watts, then buy the new EU2000. If it had been on the market at the time I purchased the EU1000, I would have bought it.



You are right on about starting loads. Heart says it takes a 3. 5KW generator to Freedom 10 inverter (50 AMP battery charger) that why I charge with my Todd 40 AMP converter. Adding a motor run capacitor across the output of the generator and it will help in starting heavy loads. Heart has alot of good info on their web site. www.heartinterface.com.



I also have Link 10 amp hr meters in both my yacht and 5er. You do not know what your batteries are doing without an amp hour meter. I have available a very neat spread sheet on amp hours and batteries. Email me if you want a copy. You enter the amp hours of your battery bank and it shows you where you are, sweet area from 50 to 85 percent charge etc.



SMART BATTERY USER

Battery bank amp hours = 520

Amp hours

% Avail Used

100 520 0 \

95 494 26 Acceptance charge area 85 to 100 percent charged, slow to recharge.

90 468 52 Reuse this area only on long run todays when you have the time to recharge.

85 442 78 /



85 442 78 \ 0 \

80 416 104 | 26 \

75 390 130 | 52 \

70 364 156 | 78 Bulk charge sweet area, 35 percent usable without lenghty

65 338 182 | 104 acceptance charge time.

60 312 208 | 130 /

55 286 234 | 156 /

50 260 260 | 182 /



50 260 260 | \

45 234 286 Bulk |charge area, 0 to 85 percent

40 208 312 | |

35 182 338 | |

30 156 364 | |

25 130 390 | |

20 104 416 | Please do not hurt your batteries, stay out of this range when ever possible!!!!

15 78 442 | |

10 52 468 | |

5 26 494 | |

0 0 520 / / Created by: Snow King

Not sure how this will read. Email me if you want the spread sheet. Snow King

 

[BK]

Snow King,



I haven't heard the Inverter series of Hondas run, but the spec is impressive.

I've heard the 650 non-inverter run, the cheapest Honda... .

The non-inverter series don't have the electronicly controlled throttle and are pure mechanical AC generation.



I've heard my 4500 and 16Kw run - (16Kw... . talk about embarrasing, you don't know what that is till you've started this thing up and let it run for a few hours) I've heard one of the big ~5000W Hondas run, unfortunantly all night long from one $@$#@. All weekend long 24hours/day... I was on the verge of a midnight run with a hand full of sand for his gas tank... . That thing was worse than my Generac.



But for apples and apples of cost and "technology" , noise wize... my take on the Coleman wasn't bad - it is a heck of a lot better noise wize than all the cheap 4Kw's I've hear from the price club and my Generac (again apples Vs apples based on technology, all these being basic mechanical rotory generators, with WOT/Governor... but of course the Coleman isnt near the power, so the engine itself makes less noise).

Bearing Vs bushings, I had and have no idea what is where in the Coleman, since you've owned one (both for that matter) - I do defer to you on this.

And of course side by side running of the Honda Inverter series Vs the Coleman, since I don't know anyone that owns one of the "Inverter" Hondas... but again technology and price, this is not an apples to apples comparision... I agree (just based on published spec and theroy) the Honda is less noisey... . But someone has to decide for themselves if spending or saving the extra money is for them.



Again, I will spend the extra money for the Honda (read my past posting again, I don't disagree with you), but my friend decided it wasnt for him, he wanted to save the extra $$ and get the extra power..... It maybe a "pos", I guess he'll find out, but he also went with the coleman based on someone else's exprience with theirs for the last 4years or so... . ??

I did camp with my buddy for a few weekends, all which he used the Coleman for a few hours a day. My camper was about 50feet away from him (no-one inbetween us, no woods between use either). At my camper, you had to listen for it to tell it was running. At his camper, you could hear it, but hold a normal conversation without a problem and after 5 minutes you forgot about it. Once you stood next to it (it was at the back end of his trailer, not on the service side)... you could still hold an average conversation, but it was just like talking over someone, a someone that hummed a conversation-nonstop-.

So I don't find fault with their specs.

But yes the Honda is less noisy..... but it aint the same technology, hence why it's "nearly" - "close to" twice the price @ 55% of the power.

By me the Honda 1kW is ~700 bucks, and the coleman 1850W is ~380 bucks... food for thought on a tight budget.

 

[Bill Lins]

OK, I've got a question for y'all. I have a 4kw Coleman that I use for emergency power @ my shop and to power a light tower for night fishing. It is as noisy as the hammers of hell but I cannot justify the extra expense of a Honda. Anybody have any ideas on how to quiet this beast down?

 

[SnoKing]

Coleman Pulse 1850

Provides 1500 watts, surge of 1875 watts power

3. 5 HP Briggs & Stratton gas engine

Super Low Tone Muffler

73. 1 Average dB rating at 4 meters at 3/4 Load

Spark Arrestors available for Government Parks

Two 120 volt receptacles

Fast charging 15 amp battery charger complete with cables

Rubber feet to reduce vibration and inhibit crawling

Electronic Ignition for easy starting

Large fuel tank for longer running time, . 9 gal fuel tank, 5. 0 hour run time on 50% load

Circuit breaker protects generator and equipment from overload

On/Off switch with power "On" light



Lets see. 73-57=16db or 5. 33 times louder then the Honda. That is the Honda at full power and the Coleman at 3/4.



I only reason I am staying at this is that I owned a Coleman and continue to see people say that they are great for camp grounds when if fact they are VERY noisy in that mode of use. I could go do some searching on noise limits, I believe that they are around 57-59 DBs for federal camp grounds.



Check this:

Los Angeles County Exterior Noise Standards

http://www.nps.gov/planning/samo/cala/tb2apdxd.htm





Snow King

 

[SnoKing]

Bill, I tried a foam lined box on my 1850 Coleman with very little sucess. My neighbor ran his 2500 open frame Honda in the back of his truck until he bought a EU1000. Snow King

 

[BK]

http://www.ies2000inc.com/dB.html



"Twice" the noise is hard for a person to quantify... .

Above is a link to everday things measured or refered to in db's.



If you can find it , it would be interesting to see the "FS" limit for noise. I havent' found one yet.

I know my state and county camp grounds do not publish a db limit for generators, just hours of their use. On our outer beach camping areas, they dont even enforce hours for use.



And I know in my state (not parks, towns now), it's governed by township. And there isnt a lawn mower that anyone is using that meets it. For reference, all the lawn mowers I've heard my neighboors using are noisier than the Coleman my buddy is using.



Again it's not a apples to apples comparison with the Coleman and Honda... The technologies are totally different... .

but the coleman is $. 26/Watt @ 1500watts (I stand correct)

the Honda is $. 7/Watt @ 900Watts (corrected wattage for the Honda)



For the price difference, the Honda better be better in many areas, if not all.



From Honda's site:



(120V)

1000W max.

(8. 3A)

900W rated

(7. 5A))



59 dB @ rated load(not listed how it was measured... )



29 lbs Dry. . (thats real nice)

 

[BK]

I know for RF radiation and Voltage how relevant db measurements are and such... . but it's been 20 years since I've spent time doing audio work in sound dead chambers.



But I wasn't sure what rules appy to audio...

Here's some info...

http://www.earinfo.com/howread5.html

http://www.rcaanews.org/noiselev.htm



With free air sound, "twice" as much = 10db "Perceptually"

Actual sound pressure levels , twice as much = 6db. . when measured.

Our ears and mind working differently than sound pressure measurement devices... hence the difference... . and everyone has different sensitivity levels at different frequencies.

 

[BK]

Originally posted by Bill Lins

OK, I've got a question for y'all. I have a 4kw Coleman that I use for emergency power @ my shop and to power a light tower for night fishing. It is as noisy as the hammers of hell but I cannot justify the extra expense of a Honda. Anybody have any ideas on how to quiet this beast down?

Bill,



The folks I've seen with the 4Kw units do use boards with some measure of success. .

You can't make a tomb of it, but need to use them to re-direct the noise. Thats the best use of the boards. As Snow King mentioned, foam is a good idea, you can line the plywood with it. It will keep the boards from vibrating and acting like speakers and radiating sound in the wrong direction. The foam should be facing the generator. Foam by itself is much too light to try and use alone. Being so lite, the whole panel will just act as a large wizzer cone.



I don't know where the generator is at your shop, but if it is in an alley way, the whole alley way is gonna echo. It almost doesn't matter what you do... At that point you would have to build a tomb and vent the heat with the noise above the alley way.

If you really wanted to go hi-tech, there are noise cancellation systems out there. Probably cost more than the generator. It works by sampling the sound and producing soundwaves 180degs out of phase with the original sound to dramatically reduce the pressure of the original sound waves. Niffty stuff thats used in the real world now in industry. Some high end $$ cars have it implemented through the factory car stereo system... there's even a design for a car muffler, but the costs aren't anywhere in line for the automotive industry.



The other thing you can try, since a lot of the noise can be mechanical beside exhaust... synthetic oil... and a better muffler.

My 16Kw used a big car muffler. . the tone of the muffler and the mechanical clanking of the thing was most of the noise. I never did try synthetic oil, but it a cheap thing to try.





Bob

 

[speedracer]

Honda EU3000 & AC

Dkevdog-



Before you buy a EU3000, take your trailer down to a Honda dealer that's got one and plug it in to make sure that it'll run your ac. I really wanted to get one of those hondas due to their manageable size and quiet operation, but it wouldn't turn my ac(13,500 btu, 1994 model) over. I've heard some people say it runs theirs, no problem. So just make sure it'll run yours before laying down the green.



I ended up getting a Yamaha 6000 watt unit($1500, couldn't beat the price). Works fine, gets the job done, but it's pretty noisy, bigger and heavier than the honda. Good luck.

 

[BK]

Good suggestion Speedracer...



I would add , bring an AC voltmeter.

When you hear the gen set laboring to turn over the AC, check the ac voltage at an outlet IN the trailer. If it's below 105Vac during that time... not enough umph. . you'll spell an early death for your compressor motor.

The longer it labors to get the compressor going, the worse the situation.

The Gen Set can engine can labor all it wants, as long as that AC voltage and frequency is correct... But not many folks can measure the frequency. As with the voltage, if the frequency is too low, high currents will be drawn by the compressor motor. .



On basic motor - gen sets, the rpm of the engine needs to be regulated to keep the correct frequency and voltage. So has the engine slows, the voltage goes down and the frequency reduces.



The Inverter Honda, thats one secret to it being less noise, they can slow down the engine since theirs has an AC-AC electronic inverter inside that develops the 60Hz Sinewave - line frequency- output... It's also a much cleaner Sine Wave than mechanical gen sets. (I've never been inside an Inverter Honda, but based on their literature and reading into their specs thats what I guess is going on. )



Bob

 

[Dkevdog]

Well My gosh what a debate we've started ! Just a couple of logs for the fire... ... ... ... ... ... .....





I went down to my local Honda, and after drooling all over the quads , I checked out the gensets. He looked puzzled when I told him I wanted to see it run my rig. I took in all the advice and brought my true RMS Fluke meter and as some have suggested- The voltage dropped significantly on the EU3000.



Voltages measured at the Bath REC.



First Try- 109 volts

Second Try- 102 volts

Third Try- 107 Volts

Fourth try - blew breaker on AC



Fifth try... ... ... ... deceided to get an EU2000 (when more OT money comes in) and forget the AC.



It turned the AC over but the compressor and the genset labored in doing so. I don't want to risk damage to either. The Honda guy brought out a larger, noisier unit (not sure of the model) and the voltage never dropped below about 113. It was also large heavy and expensive.



Not conclusive evidence, I'm sure. I waited about 2 minutes between each attempt. Would it work? Probably, but without a voltmeter, I'd not have guessed there was such a drop in voltage.



Just something to think about when you're shopping. One of his service guys told me that they sell a ton of the eu3000 to people in RV's running AC's. But he also told me he wouldn't do it. He said something in the neighborhood of 6000watts would be better, but not very cost efficient or portable.





Kev

 

[BK]

Kev,

good data and good observations. And with the Voltmeter you've confirmed that it's just not enough umph to make sure your compressor motor will be happy and live a long life.



I only have had my 4500 and 16Kw to try. . nothing inbetween. .

The 4500 was too close and like you, I'm not gonna kill my AC unit trying to run it off of the 4500. .

I sold the 16kw. . just too big and noisey and I cant tow tadem!

When my funds accumulate I'll probably wind up with the 1kw Honda.



Again if you have the ability of measuring the Frequency, you'll have more data to confirm if the gen set is supplying happy power.

It's hard to beat the impedance of a decent AC outlet powered by the local power Authority.

These gen sets (meaning trying to select one around your rms load ratings) just dont have the ability to deal with the surges and powerfactor (PF) of some of these loads have.

 

[swamp rat]

My 4kw Honda (rated at nearly 6k surge) is almost big enough to run every appliance in my home simultaneously sans the stovetop and reg. oven, and dryer. Just for kicks I did a test just B4 Y2K to make sure it would handle what I would throw at it. Turned on my perimeter lights(5 double 150w spot fixtures), AC, TV,stereo, and every lightbulb in the house. Then I turned on two stovetop elements. The only time the generator stumbled was when the AC compressor cycled, and then it only tripped the CB on the generator. After killing the perimeter lights, it was dificult to get the CB's to pop, but you could definitely hear the generator gear down when the AC fired up. Judging from this not-so-scientific test, it passed with flying colors. YMMV