Powel's address to U.N. Security Council...

[Sled Puller]

CF posted while I was posting, well anyway, case in point!!



Clinton did a wonderful job with Foreign relations.

What was his body count of American military personnel while in office?

What did he accomplish with the deaths?

He did a great job with North Korea, giving them nuke secrets.





HELLO????

EARTH TO CF?????!!

WE ARE TARGETS OF SUICIDE BOMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Champane Flight]

Started

Clinton had some idea of what foreign relations is all about. He was attempting to normalize relations between the NK and the rest of the world. The selling of nuclear secrets to the NK is just some more of the propaganda spread by the Republican agenda. He did agree to give them oil and humanitarian aid if they gave up their nuclear plant. They were just starting to open their borders and attempting a dialog with SK when along come the bull in the china closet and closes off all aid. Some diplomat! Bush would much rather have a threat of war. He reminds me of a child, a spoiled one at that. "I don't like them, they are bad people".



The bad thing about it is he is playing and betting the lives of the brightest, youngest, most loyal, fighting men and women in the world. They would follow him to their deaths. I was one, I know. They are being lied to, and when the truth comes down, I certainly hope they survive being betrayed by their comander in chief.



It is a little different to have a threat of terror in a nation 3500 miles away and to have children living next door wading into a group of GIs with C-4 strapped to them on a daily or weekly basis. When you are in the lions den you can be expected to eaten. It is just plain stupid to think any different.



The good thing about all this, probably, maybe, unless all common sense is lost in the US, Bush has shown the world and us he cannot be a president more than one term. Maybe the next poor devil can pick up the mess he is leaving. I should say the next 4 or 5, its a big mess.



Earth to Sledpuller, go enlist, when you come home after seeing war, I will sit down and talk to you. I see a disturbing trend of blind patriotism, the President says so, it must be right. Think for yourself, I know you have an original idea. You don't have to parrot Bush, Limbaugh, Oreilly, and the rest. I have heard their story, it is full of holes.

 

[dalton4]

Sled Puller, don't sweat CF's comments. I'm sure Sadam would appreciate reading his post a lot more than yours.

 

[sdalton]

Sled Puller, What you dont understand is that the Socialist Democrats of this country will disagree with everything the republican President has to say or do. They are all still crying over the spanking that Bush gave them, and the loosing of seats in the House and Senate. These are desperate rantings from the Democrates who know that their party is now DOOMED. The only way they can hang on to anything is if Bush fails, and they will try anything to perpetuate that. What this all boils down to is that Bush was elected to represent the people of this country, while in office, and we need to support his decisions.

Another reason these OLD HIPPIES are against Bush is that if his war tactics work, it render their lifes work meaningless. War is needed at times, and this is one of them.



Oh, I almost forgot. Champane(correct spelling is Champagne) Flight:

 

[Sled Puller]

It really shocks, and saddens me that there are actually people in this country that belive the leftest side of things.



""Clinton had some idea of what foreign relations is all about. "



Yep CF, he shore did.



When the heat from Monica got too much.....



"Ok, I'll send a few missiles and blast Saddam for a while, that should help me out in the polls. "



Foreign relations, sexual relations, it mattered not to your boy. he killed people for both.



Seems to me that we have at least 28 countrys backing us, time to act.





Oh, and don't try to compare Viet Nam with what we are doing now. Kennedy, Johnson left a nice mess for Nixon to clean up there, and he screwed the clean up worse. I believe the French were involved then, too????? ya, they are good Komrades.



Sdalton-



Hey, yelloweyes has not posted what he thinks we should do, instead of taking Saddam out.



Lets sugercoat it for the Liberals.



We are LIBERATING Iraq. And it will be quick, and the world will be a better place.

 

[NETim]

Yeah, that seems to be a common theme. We hear much criticism of Bush's foreign policy, but little do we hear of alternatives. Oh yeah, we're supposed to wait for more countries to see it our way. Countries whose national interests will be harmed by Saddam's sudden departure. Yeah, they're going to sign up. You betcha. The longer we wait, the stronger Hussein becomes. The worse it will be for our troops.

Over and over again we are reminded of past US blunders and evil deeds as if somehow this means we don't have the right to ensure a mad dog dictator doesn't acquire nukes. As if our past transgressions disallow our right to defend this country and her citizens.

As it's been said, "War is hell. " I don't want war. President Bush doesn't either. It would be much better if the people of Iraq and other Middle Eastern states take care of business and rid the world of these tin horn despots. But alas it appears that again it's up to us to straighten out this mess.

War is sometimes necessary. This time is one of them.

Tim

 

[onestackdram]

Sledpuller wrote: "Oh, and don't try to compare Viet Nam with what we are doing now. Kennedy, Johnson left a nice mess for Nixon to clean up there, and he screwed the clean up worse. I believe the French were involved then, too????? ya, they are good Komrades"





To our enemies,

WE SURRENDOR

Thank you the FRENCH



sorry guys i had to try to lighten the conv up just a little bit.



but i have to add this part in. it saddens me that SO MANY PEOPLE, have the gall to argue and criticize our troops and OUR president in such a time. right or wrong he is our president and he deserves NOTHING but our support on matters like this, instead of bickering on whether or not we should do it (cause we are going to, nothing we say will stop it) we should concentrate our efforts, thoughts, and prayers with those who make the decisions and THOSE WHO HAVE TO FIGHT FOR US. has everyone forgotten that if it werent for people willing to fight no matter what, we (all AMERICANS) would not have the FREEDOMs we do! therefore it is OUR duty to support them in their time of need.



i understand that it is your write to express your opinion, just like it is mine to write this, but it is just amazing to what extend people will go claim their arguement. you people who have done nothing but critize BUSH for his actions since 9/11 are an appauling group. i could go on with what you have done to destroy our country but unfortunatley this is neither the time or place, because rather than get into that debate with you i would rather concentrate MY efforts to what i can do, to help, even if its just praying for the safe return of our troops, and that our leaders are wise in their decision making



i leave you with that take it as you please

 

[Champane Flight]

Wrong

I thought the President did a excellent job right after 9/11. I was concerned for the safety of our troops before Afganastan, and stated as so. But it was needed and supported such. It was a seen enemy, AlQueda, being harbored by the Taliban, with them thumbing their noses at us and refusing to eject or turn over AlQueda. He made all the right moves in my eyes right after 9/11 and I thought he was going to make a fine president, dispite my political veiws.



This is a whole lot different folks. There is a contained country (has been since the gulf war) with a dictator in power. Weapons inspectors in place, with a UN presence monitoring any WMD buildups or aggressions. With or without weapons of mass destruction, a military infrastructure that is pretty much a non-threat and a oil reserve. It saddens me to see so many people wanting a war. Our president has the whole world asking for discretion right now, yet he is massing troops. I have not seen any Iraqi troops in my neck of the woods, this would be an act of aggression and a threat. Maybe they are only attacking Republicans.



Think, there are many, many countries with WMD that disagree with our ideology of what a democratic country should be. Where do we stop if we start knocking these countries off now? Iran, Libya, NK, China, and several others pose a greater threat, yet no one dares mention the next step. WW-3 is the next step folks. Are you ready? If we start now, where will it stop? Are you willing to sacrifice your children only to have the rest of the world see us as an aggressive regime?



I have stated many times, that the world has made the judgment to back off taking Iraq in 91 and should be the ones to make the decision to go back in. It is NOT our responsibility to overthrow every two bit dictator this side of Mecca! It is our governments responsibility to find Al Queda! No this won't be as spectacular or as popular in the polls, but it is the job we have entrusted to our leaders. Don't give a humanitarian right wing excuse for going into Iraq, it just doesn't wash.



Tell us the truth about wanting to go in Bush, don't lie when it comes to the lives of our fighting men and women. I would much rather see a lie about a former or present sexual affair, than a lie about sending 100,000+ men and women going into harms way! Your right, if I did know the real reasons, I most likely would not back his personal attack on Iraq anyway.



Oh by the way, Nixon was the last great republican president and did a damn fine job in getting us out of a war that we were not able to win without nuclear means. He just got caught doing something that most presidents had done for years. He also left a legacy of foreign relations that NO president since has been able to match. In my eyes Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, Regan, Carter , and Ford could not make a pimple on his a$$. He shook my hand once. I will never forget his words "We will have you home soon son". He did not have to walk over to our ship, we must have looked like he!!.



WW-2 war veterans are not forgotten and some will be the first ones to say that freedoms are hollow if not used. I am using mine and will continue. I will continue to take things not on face value, I will look deeper. The veterans of WW-2 defended our country against a known aggressor. I am afraid these veterans will go down in history as aggressors if we do not speak up now. In my eyes this next step we take in this conflict will either destroy us as a country or make us stronger. Let us not make the wrong decision.

 

[illflem]

Some of you guys are turning into obedient little clones, just what the government loves. If the 9/11 attacks bought about the sudden ultimate trust in our government then al Queda already won.

Next thing you'll be saying is that it's ok to have a dictator as long as he's a Republican.



"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories. "



"The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object. "



Thomas Jefferson

 

[Johnboy3]

Illflem, where did my post go????

 

[Sled Puller]

Illflem,

You mean I'm supposed to argue with the president, whether I agree with what he's doing or not?



I'm not a Democrat, I don't change my mind with poll results.

 

[dalton4]

I see we are now stating quotes from past famous people. Interesting things said in the past that may apply to the present.

Consider this for example:



"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. " Solomon, 10th centry B. C. , NIV translation, ECC 10:2

 

[NETim]

Looking for input

OK, you guys in the know, could you tell me how to come down on this Iraq thing? I mean, I hear over and over again that because I support the President's policies I am a brainwashed little clone. So obviously I cannot think for myself. So again, I ask you guys in the know, those of you with access to information not available to us ordinary citizens, to fill in the blanks. And by this I mean, information! Not the pre-packaged leftist drivel about how stupid the President is.



Right now, I just ain't too sure that allowing Saddam Hussein to acquire NucWeps is such a hot idea, even if he is supposedly contained. It's not too difficult for this brainwashed little mind to envision a "contained" NucWep going off in downtown NY some crowded sunny afternoon. I think we (the US) should prevent this ugly scenario from reaching its' fruition and pronto! Who else is going to do it? The UN? Those guys are too busy draining the US Treasury to be bothered with such trivial matters.



So what are the alternatives? If we don't take out Saddam, what do we do? Sit on our hands until we get hit again? Sit around and invent new insults for the President and his cabinet? The President warned us early and often that the trail of the terrorists would lead us through many countries and we applauded. Now that the trail leads to Iraq, we cower.



We obviously have busted up the Taliban pretty good in Afghanistan otherwise we wouldn't be looking elsewhere. Sure there are still some hot spots there and the country is a long ways from stable, but stability there is years and years in the making. We can't wait for a flourishing democracy in Afghanistan before we move on. We've got to keep these Al Queda *******s on the run.



And yes, there are other "bad guys" in the world. Places like North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran etc, that harbor those who would do us harm. Well, in good time. We've got to start somewhere and apparently Iraq is it. FWIW, if we had our sights set on NK, we'd be facing the same sort of criticism we're hearing now. (Who knows, maybe the Chinese will step in and throttle back NK for us. They don't want the US on their doorstep anymore than we want to invade NK. )Besides, I don't recall anyone saying that routing the terrrorists would be an overnight thing. Seems like I heard "years and years" repeatedly mentioned in the early days after 9/11.



Do I trust the US government, even if I am brainwashed? HELL NO! But that isn't to say that even if the US government is rife with corruption and sinking under it's own bloated bureaucratic weight that there isn't a need to take out those who mean the citizens of this country harm.



I just gotta think that Bush and Co are privy to a whole lot more info than we are and there's just a whole mess of intel that they just can't share with the public. Again I don't think that President Bush is the kind of man to risk our troops for poll results. He's not that kind of guy.



For many years we feasted on ice cream and popsicles here in the good ol' US of A and we were told that it was good. Then along came 9/11 and our eyes were opened to just how many ugly situations existed around the world. Now we have a President with the guts to tell us that we're gonna have to eat our green vegetables. They don't taste as good, but we're going to have to eat them nevertheless. Like spoiled little brats on a sugar high, many of us are screaming through cavity ridden teeth "We want our ice cream back!"



The biggest threat to the US is our own loss of resolve.



So again, oh great non-brainwashed ones, tell me precisely what we should do, OK? And again, I'm not looking for your own personal opinions of the Bush admin's collective IQ. I can get that all day long on any network news channel or from the intellectual giants that suddenly populate Hollywood.



What are the alternatives?



Tim

 

[Johnboy3]

THANK YOU ILLFLEM!!!!!!

Thank you so very much for showing how a responsible authority should act if the rules are not followed. I posted a post you didn't agree with, which would have been ok probably. But towards the end I used a forbidden word. You didn't give me chance to change it, didn't give me twelve years to think it over and tell you I was going to change. You didn't let me use that word all over the rest of the site while inspecting the issue. You didn't even send me a personal message or email saying that it was in violation. You just plain ERASED it from the thread. Why? Because it was in flagrant violation of the rules. I understand that.



So why do you take such a different approach on Iraq? They break the rules, they must go. Period. It's not about oil or one man's crusade. It's about ridding the world of a flagrant rule violator. I'm sure you can understand that.



I wouldn't be suprised that it wasn't you that deleted my post. You don't strike me as the sort that has the intestinal fortitude for such swift action.

 

[Champane Flight]

Information

Again we hear the same thing over and over again, about the threat of nuclear weapons and WMD that Iraq has. WHERE are they? We also hear how they can be used on the USA, HOW?

By selling them to the terrorists? There are other countries much more likely to sell weapons to terrorists.



The administration has come up with NO definite proof of WMD or nuclear capability's. The arms inspectors have seen none of these weapons, just smaller violations like the possibility of a longer range (by100 meters) missile than allowed. All the administration has is hearsay from defectors and a paper trail from 1991. Would you put your sons life on the line for hearsay and a paper-trail? The nuclear threat is NOT there according to the people in charge of finding it. They have said over and over again that they found and destroyed all of a budding nuclear program in 1991. It was not even a full fledged program before the gulf war.



As UN resolutions go, Israel has broken over 17 UN resolutions/rules. Are we attacking them? Why are we so set on Iraq? Maybe because it is a easy mark in the sand with oil?



I would feel much better about my country if it was going after a known nuclear threat like NK. In any battle you take the largest threat first. Even the lowest soldier knows this. Of course we know that NK has the capability of striking back.



I will not ask you to look at a right or left mind in this argument. It does come down to an open mind against a closed one. I don't care what a persons political view's are. I have always been middle of the road. I do think letting Saddam know that we mean business is a smart thing to do. I also believe that by massing troops on the border of Iraq may just be the ticket, but it also puts us on the line. If we attack unprovoked, it will be a tragedy.

 

[NETim]

OK

OK CF, so far as we know, Iraq has no nukes. So far as we know. I don't think they have any right now either. But that doesn't mean that they aren't trying to acquire them. And it's a fairly good bet that if good ol' Saddam had them, he'd be using them on someone, somewhere.

How long does it take to get one on the black market anyway? A year? Two months? 24 hours? I don't know. I've never been shopping for them.

This argument harkens back to the age old gun control debate. I'll tell you the real weapon lies between the ears. Others will tell you that it's the gun's fault.

Isreal is a democracy that thus far has posed no threat to US security. Sure, they've stabbed us in the back and done many questionable things in the past, but I don't think that we have to worry about them tripping off a nuke in downtown Miami any time soon. And if they've violated some UN treaties, good for them. As long as they aren't sizing us up for war.

North Korea is a different scenario entirely. They do pose a larger threat in one sense because they do have the bomb. And their fearless leader has spouting off a lot of hate speech directed at the USA. Possibly even more than Susan Sarandon or Alec Baldwin. However, I don't think they have the balls to toss anything our way. We KNOW where Kim Il Jong lives. And I do believe that big brother China will reign in their inbred little brother before he gets too rowdy. THey don't want their best trading partner damaged just yet. They still can't take us and they know it.

The difference here is I believe the Bush admin knows what they're doing. They have access to much, much more info than any of us and they're acting on it in a prudent and reasonable manner.

When President Bush tells the nation that his number one priority is protecting US citizens, I believe him. He is sincere and he's doing his damndest to get it done.

Tim

 

[Sticks]

Point of view from another country.

A Must to read:



No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of background, for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.





**************************************************

**





Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002



One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of roadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.



An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.



But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as

America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.



There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.



America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics.



Are we so quick to betray them?



What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.



And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?



These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.



The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.



Remember, remember -



Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.



Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.



Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.



Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.



Remember, remember -



And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything

like the way it could have.



So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray?



Pass the Kleenex...



So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semiautomatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.



AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?



When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism. " A real war.



The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.



The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the

face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.



But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these

wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.



I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh.



Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.



Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the

loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.



Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the

hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.



To our shame, George Bush gets worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, Oh Mighty One!



Remember, remember, September 11 -



One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.



No, do more than remember. Never forget.



Life is not measured by the breaths that you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.



Thank you onestackedram for suggesting that this be read more. The media keeps us informed, but if it was all good news, no one would pay attention. We have to remember that we do get support from the most unlikely places.



Sticks

 

[Sled Puller]

I guess we should not forget that the silent majority is with us.



It is the extreme minority that does their little marches, stamps their feet, and breaks windows.



Excellent article.

 

[Champane Flight]

Silent majority?

And the silent majority marchs off to war without any reasoning or direction, as long it is killing someone?

 

[Sled Puller]

The "reasoning or direction" has been in front of your face for years now, take your blinders off.