Powel's address to U.N. Security Council...

[rob10858]

we might need a turbo heatshield before this topic is resolved, and no it won't be resolved in the foreseeable future. excuse my lack of typing skills, and the spellcheck feature that we all enjoy as we sit here and discuss the future of the world on our amazing machines. do i have a vested interest?, yes the only family member that i have left is in the military. am i better off now than i was 5 years ago? no, none of us are. do i know what the hell we are doing, trying to start a war when at home the economy that will fuel that war is crumbling? no. do i remember 9\11\1 like no other event in our history [except maybe pearl harbor]? yes. sometimes it seems that we are a nation of forgetful people. remember khadafi? i would guess that alot of the younger members might be hitting their referance books, looking for the comparisons. we won't forget 9\11\1 and if we are wrong about iraq, it will go down in the history books as one of our greatest political blunders. i dont think so, i think it is the natural progression of the terrorist trail... during the fervor of the post 9-11 manhunt, the public was solidly behind gw and leaving no stone unturned, now that we are getting down to it, it gets ugly. we ***** about paying $2 a gallon for gas, budget woes, [more on that in a sec] the stock mkt... etc. who really pays the dues in this war? everybody, the sons and daughters, you and me. the difference is the sons and daughters are putting their lives on the line while we seem to be more worried about the loss of our right to travel without delays and hassels for trying to take a pc on board..... i hope that there is no war, but i also hope that we won't be sittting here 5 years from now saying, "if only we would have..... "

 

[illflem]

another take

Wernher von Braun, the inventor of the rocket in WWII, the ICBM and the Saturn V rocket that carried men to the moon said that there is a group of people that were going to keep the cold war going for as long as possible. Then they would replace it with a global war on terrorism, this was long before 9/11 and even before the word terriorist came into common usage. He said after the war on terrorism played out it would be replaced by a hoaxed threat of invasion from outer space to unite the world in a multi-trillion dollar military juggernaut to put weapons into space.



von Braun said it's all a game played by the military/industrial/govermental complex to keep them in business and said it over and over again during the last twenty years of his life. Dr. Von Braun also served as the first Director of the NASA Marshall Space Flight Center from 1960 to 1970 and died in 1977.

Was he nuts or did he have some inside information?



For at least twenty years I have heard of his scenario. Of course I laughed, thinking this just too absurd and far-fetched but I would have felt the same way just a couple years ago about a few guys with box cutters taking down the WTC .

Now I have to wonder...

 

[Champane Flight]

Blinders?

If anyone has blinders it is the people backing this war on Iraq. Be sure it is not a war on terror, it is a war on Saddam period! There are no terrorist conections between Iraq, Saddam or terror. Again and again the goverments case falls short of convincing anyone with with any common sense otherwise. Yet we continue to move on Iraq. What is one voice in millions, it is too late to stop now anyway. Wave the flag and go on.



We have troops in Iraq as we speak, all I can do now is pray for their safe return. I certainly hope this keeps our little cowboy president happy for the next two years. And I hope that all our troops come home safe, some will sacrifice all, it will not be our president.

 

[BRobertson]

I sincerely hope that the liberals continue to underestimate Bush.

If we are going to Iraq for the oil, then so be it, why shouldn't we!!??

We are the superior country, they have something we need, so we should take it. Might makes right!!!!



SCREW POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!!!



Bob

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: Blinders?

Originally posted by Champane Flight

There are no terrorist conections between Iraq, Saddam or terror. .

:--)

:--)

:--)





Next, we will hear the Unions knocked the buildings down becuase they needed work.



The factorys that built fire engines and airplanes, needed work also.



And we know airport security machines sales were down... . yep follow the money.....



Then the aliens attacked... ... ... ...

 

[Champane Flight]

Show me?

You show me the connection Sledpuller. Powell couldn't, Bush can't, even the weapons inspectors can't. Powell almost had a case with a certain terrorist outfit in Iraq, but came up short when we found out the same terror outfit is out of Saddams control on the border of Iran/Iraq and calls Saddam a greater enemy than the US. Saddam was one of the first to condem the attack of 9/11, and none of the attackers were from Iraq. You can believe what you want and will. Santa Claus won't be here until next year. Bush can now ride his little stick horse into the sunset and all will be well.....





Like I said, it all means nothing now, we have troops in Iraq. We are going in, whatever the reason, or non-reason. It is a sad day for the USA. May our troops come home safely.

 

[sdalton]

CF, One thing that I have been wondering for a while, were you a Conscientious Objector during your military career??



Sled Puller, give it up. I don't think CF would be convinced of a connection, even it Saddam was caught French Kissing Bin Laden. I thing it will be a great day when we go in, and find out who(The French) has been selling weapons and illegally helping the Iraqi Government. I will celebrate when Bush tells France to take a hike, and the Peoples(Republican) Congress puts embargo's and high tariffs against all imported Frenchy Frenchmen products, except maybe their cheeses. They can also do away with all Champane(Champagne) importations into America. I cant stand Champagne anyway.

 

[tractorface]

I gotta say that I don't think much of politicians or what they have to say, never have.

I think what we did to the American Indians was wrong!

We did to them what Hitler tried to do to the Jewish people. I am embarrased every time I think about it even though I had nothing to do with it.

Shows how greedy America can be.

I think Slavery was wrong!

I don't think there is anyway to go back and fix any of this.



With that said, I feel like this whole deal is a religous war. Don't believe that war for oil BS. It is all about religion. The US chose sides in a holy war that has been going on for a long time. We support Israel (why I don't know) Israel is the sworn religous enemy of the Muslim people. Hell Christians and Muslims have been fighting forever. We chose sides and are now the sworn enemy of the Muslim people. Right or wrong we need to wipe them out before they wipe us out! Have you ever seen clips on TV with little children in the middle east rocking back and forth chanting Anti-American slogans. This problem is not going away anytime soon. right or wrong they need to be dealt with. I can not imagine that Diplomacy has any chance. We should strike while we have the advantage. I think killing people is wrong so I'll look the other way while the people that handle tis kind of thing do what they do. I am not proud of that but I believe the lives of our children are at stake.



Bottom line is We don't have to be right to do what needs to be done. It is not a simple black and white deal here. While we wait for the world to justify the atrocity that needs to be carried out our country is in danger.



What about the Russians in Checneay (sp?) I think we should admit we were wrong and let them handle those terrorists. I'll bet if we made this concession our relationship would improve thus improving world peace. Like Hank said "The Eagle and the bear make a mighty fine pair"



Not picking on anyones views because I don't think there is any one that is "fighten for the just cause". Just venting

Thanks

 

[TDRadmin]

Cool It

I just (temporarily) offered to help moderate the "Other" forum for a while.



Geez . . . . when will we all figure out that we cannot change the other individual's opinion by "cramming ours" down their throats.



Several posts here are good, and I am learning a lot. But I'm fed up with the zingers and jabs.



Clean up the personal attacks. None of you will be able to change anyone else's mind. But well written, objective data may influence them.



Keep it civil, or I'll close the thread.



Robin

TDR Admin

 

[Hohn]

Welcome to the New Crusades

Thanks, Robin. Maybe we can keep this less personal and more on topic



What are the New Crusades? This is simply the Crusade on the part of the Islamic world to force the rest of the world into compliance with Islam. This is similarly to the Crusades of the early Middle Ages, where Knights would ride off from Europe to conquer the great unwashed non believers. By the way, these Europeans were not "Christians" as I understand Christianity-- they were tyrants wrapping themselves in the name of Christ. What they did was deplorable.



So it is now with the New Crusades and the New Tyrants wrapping themselves in the name of Allah. To say that Islam is a religion of peace is to speak a half truth. Islam WILL deliver peace, as long you and all persons around you are a good Muslim and do everything that your local cleric tells you Allah says. As long as no one dares to disagree, then VOILA! Peace is yours!



I personally will not sacrifice liberty or freedom for peace (or security either, but that's another rant). Neither would the Founders of our country. In fact, they had the GALL to stand up to tyranny and lose peace for a period of many years. How dare they? They could have been at peace, IF they were willing to cower in fear and let themselves be oppressed.



Why has PEACE become so desirable? What does it gain us to let ourselves or another suffer under tyranny to preserve "peace"? Remember Neville Chamberlain? Remember him proclaiming "peace in our time" after negotiating a non-aggression pact with Hitler? What did that do? Yet, most amazingly, LIBERALS have yet to understand that appeasement simply won't work. Why don't people see this?



Why don't we hear about the SCORES of people who opposed the Lend-Lease act that helped the British against Germany? Were there any, or did people mostly understand that their very freedoms could be next? To those who say that Iraq has done nothing to us, I say learn from history instead of repeating it. Those people would have us wait again for Pearl Harbor before we did something to protect ourselves. They would have us repeat the appeasement of Hitler and sacrifice millions of innocent lives so that we can have "PEACE". They would have us sit idly by as the Soviets put missiles into Cuba. They would have us be a spectator as central American falls into the grips of Communism. Thank God for men like Kennedy and Reagan that had the ability to recognize EVIL in the world, and the courage to act.



We in America have become so infested with the dieases of moral relativism and political correctness that we no longer bring ourselves to call anything good or evil-- it's all just different, and relative.



The only thing that liberals can identify as evil is a conservative and his values. Everything else is a blur. Well, let me give you all some clarity: War is neither good nor evil, it is an inanimate object like a handgun. It can be used for evil or good, depending upon whose hand it is in. War is simply a mechanism, or as Clausewitz said "the extension of politics by other means". Therefore, it is those politics, NOT WAR ITSELF, that determines whether war is good or bad. Their is such a thing as a just cause, a war worth fighting.



This is where the Viet Nam generation goes wrong. They blame war itself for the evils they experienced-- not Johnson or Macnamara. War has no soul or conscience-- people do, and THEY are what is either good or evil.



I always found it entertaining and frustrating that elistist ignorant idiots like Hollywood actors and media kingpins fancy themselves experts on military and foreign policy. How many of these movie stars have served in the military? How many even have the SLIGHTEST knowledge of history? It is a shame that ignorance and influence can occupy the same space. I pity them in that their lives are so purposeless, their occupations so ultimately expendable that they have to spend large quantities of time rallying a cause in an effort to feel more significant than they dust that they are.



To those who worry about the economy, don't. When we launched into WW2, we were exiting the Depression. War HELPS the economy, not hurts it. In both 1939 and 1990, the American economy was in rough shape, and those wars spurred prosperity in both cases.



The UN sanctions are not the reason that children in despotic countries suffer-- it's the despots who take their national prosperity and seek weapons weapons BEFORE they seek to feed themselves. To borrow a phrase, "It's the despotic regimes, stupid"!



North Korea is not a worry. They have declared their nukes, and in doing so show that they have no ill will. They have a bargaining chip on the international level now, and they will leverage that to acquire food or whatever else they desire. They are trying to acquire through nuclear intimidation what they could NOT achieve through technological innovation or hard work. Both of these things are stifled in a Communist country. How long could they last in a REAL war since they barely have food to feed the army, no less their civilians?



There's much more to say, and many more points to make, but I will cut it off here. This should be enough for the cloudy-minded among us to have their eyes opened a little. At least one can hope.....



Hohn

 

[tractorface]

I have a question for those that think this is all about the oil.

Why do many of the small countries in the middle east fear Iraq and Saddam? Why did Qatar open the doors to thier country for us?

I believe that Iraq is the biggest bully on the block and needs to go, just sorry innocent lives have to be lost but that is the way it is. Lifes not fair!



I am finding this debate very interesting! Some of you have made some very good points for both sides but I am concerned that our "truck drivin redneck" image will be forever tarnished by the well written posts in this thread. Glad mine won't be on that list!

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: THANK YOU ILLFLEM!!!!!!

I would still like to hear the non-agression side of how to secure this country from terrorists.





Johnboy,

That was quite comical, your analogy of "inspecting the forbidden word" For 12 years.

I think a lot of guys missed it though.

 

[Johnboy3]

Since they must still be inspecting the offending word, I put my post back up with the bad part edited like I was going to do anyhow before it was yanked:



Are some of you guys for real???? Is it really about the oil????



Do you know that the US is the second greatest producer of oil in the world???? Only bested by Saudi Arabia by about 400,000 barrels a day? Do you know that we produce about 4 times the amount of oil per day as Iraq does?



Iraq does have the second largest reserve in the world, but that really doesn't mean squat. Perhaps after we liberate their country they will have means to support themselves from the sale of their oil. Perhaps a economy could support itself in the new democracy and less monetary aid from us would be needed.



Have any of you guys ever researched Iraq's effect on it's neighbors? Do some research on the water supply that Iraq is cutting off from the other countries in the region that desperately need it.



As long as your doing research, go back to the days of Hitler. Right before the war broke out, the allies were debating on whether to take him out before he did something stupid. They decided against it because of similar opinions on Iraq today. Just think what could have been avoided if they would have removed him when they wanted to.



It's very simple Saddam MUST go. All regimes like his MUST go. It makes me laugh that anti-war folk go on about the lose of life, etc, but then turn around and play the "why don't we attack N Korea?" card.



Unfortunately the past ten to twenty years has produced a large segment of soft flower lovin cry babies. If those folks don't want to deal with the problems the world faces, that's fine. Stand back and shut the hell up. Let the proud and brave people of America go take care of what needs done. They'll shed their blood to ensure that the whiners can organize and protest the next time they decide to go on a self rightious crusade. Unfortunately I don't think some of you guys make that connection.



It's funny, I just read a post of very similiar nature that the moderator just put **** in for a bad word instead of yanking the whole post. I guess some of the animals are more equal then others.

 

[Johnboy3]

After listening to all the news reports today about the protesters, France, and such crap, I really hope the President has more restraint then the rest of us red blooded Americans. If it was up to me we would be marching right into Bagdad, kicking some tail and raising an American flag.

 

[NETim]

Iraqi merchant marine?

I guess Iraq put 3 cargo vessels out to sea shortly after the inspectors arrived. They're just sailing around in circles out there bound for nowhere in particular.



Gee... I wonder what might be on those ships?



Tim

 

[Sled Puller]

Baby food?

Asprin?

Tissues?



I wonder if anyone is watching those ships?

 

[Champane Flight]

Political

I have no problem with taking a war to the people that brought death and destruction to us on 9/11. Iraq is not one of the countries that was on the list of plain and present enemys that brought us this attack. How many times do I have to repeat this? Our comander in chief is on the wrong track and continues on his defense of Daddys honor in the name of a "Threat to America". It doesen't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out folks.



No I was not a C/O during the VN war. I was just like you are now Dalton and believed everything the goverment told me. I stood at attention and followed orders without question.



What I fear more than loss of life or the horrors of war is the position that us going into Iraq without provocation puts us in. You see when Germany invaded Norway the political reasoning behind this invasion according to Germany/Hitler was that England was a "threat" to Germany, and Norway was a stepping stone. Is this a stepping stone to what and is Iraq really a threat? Japan saw us as a easy target and hit us thinking we could never recover. Is Iraq an easy target for us, while the real enemys are hiding in plain site, but tougher to take?



In almost all of the external or foreign wars we have been a part of we were invited by a goverment in trouble, we went in by overwhelming request of the people of that country , or overwhelming request by our people and the world. Bush is out of touch and called the people protesting for peace "A focus group" . When the majority of the US is calling for restraint, he calls them a focus group. A sad day indeed. I would think we as a people would learn something from history folks.



I have said all I will say on this subject. There are troops in harms way. As we type our messages in the safety of our homes, there are Americans in danger. I will not sit idle, I will now go assist those who need. I suggest we all do the same. I sincerly hope all of my worse fears will not come true. God bless the all of the brave men and women, come home safe.

 

[Sled Puller]

Re: Political

. When the majority of the US is calling for restraint, he calls them a focus group.





I would think we as a people would learn something from history folks.



. [/B]

What country have you been living in to get that idea? I suggest a trip out of the rose colored bubble where you live!!!



HISTORY is exactly what we have be trying to get you to acknowledge.

History shows us that sitting by, and giving money to enemys, hoping all bad things will pass, as well as friends, gets planes flown into buildings.

Maybe thats not history enough yet.







Noone will answer for Clinton and his cruise missile attacks, no surprise there.

Iraq was an iminate threat when Clinton fired those miissiles, but not now, is that what your silence implys?

 

[illflem]

Anyone ever think that the reason we can't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is because Saddam already smuggled them into the US?

Our Border Patrol can't even keep out thousands of tons of drugs and half a million Mexicans a year, a few hundred suitcases would be a piece of cake. Hey if you attack me what's wrong with me attacking you, so what if it's civilians that get killed, they're still the enemy. That's exactly what I would do if someone threatened to attack my dictatorship. The Iraqis are far from stupid and have an ace in the hole, most likely on US soil.



Sure glad I don't live near a big US city. This will be the US's first war as the aggressor nation, I have a sinking feeling that this is going to be really bad.



Hope for the best. I'm done with this thread.

 

[ToolManTimTaylor]

Re: OK

Originally posted by NETim

And their fearless leader has spouting off a lot of hate speech directed at the USA. Possibly even more than Susan Sarandon or Alec Baldwin.