Prelubing a tractor?

[QRTRHRS]

I recall discussions on prelubing having so-so results with the automated systems. Does anyone have knowledge of a simple mechanical system I could put on a farm tractor. The manual for my Case 504 diesel suggests spinning the starter over with the fuel selenoid closed to build up the oil pressure prior to starting. This seems to unnessarily grind the starter on an engine that readily fires right up. I was thinking of some simple system I could toggle first. TIA

 

[Lil' Dog]

Ok, here is a stretch...



How about a solenoid valved surge bottle, be it small. The small tank would be pressurized by the oil pressure of the engine during run through a check valve on a Tee. Then when you want to prelube to start, you push the button to open the valve and the pressurized oil floods the system. Once all the pressure is gone, let go of the switch to close the valve. Once the machine starts, you get the build of pressure in the tank again for the next start. I am thinking of small pressure vessel like the size of a 10 Lb fire extiguisher hooked with these valves to the pressure port for the gauge.



I have to think about this a bit more.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

They already make a device like that. Moroso makes it and it is available from Summit Racing. It is called an Accumulator. It has a diaphram with air pressure behind it and a valve, when you startup the first time, it fills with oil under pressure, before you shutdown, you close the valve, then the next time you start, open it and there is your Prelube. It has a regular ball valve on it, but all you need to do is get a solenoid valve and it can be automatic. It is actually designed originally to act as a reaserve if the oil pan pickup is temporarily starved for oil during racing, it will force oil under pressure back to the engine, then once pressure is restored it will refill itself. It costs about $120. 00 if i rember correctly and includes a gauge and mounting kit.

 

[QRTRHRS]

EMDDIESEL



That sounds promising. I just tried Summit's site but kept getting hung up. Have to give them a call on something else anyway.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

Ill take a look tommorow in the catalog when i find it and try and get you a part number.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

Well here is the Moroso website with pics, so at least you know what it looks like. www.moroso.com Use the index and find "oiling system accesories" there are pics of it in there plus specs.

 

[Lil' Dog]

Well, thats why I am working for a boss instead of inventing... . LOL... So much for that hot Idea.

 

[QRTRHRS]

EMDDIESEL



I found a Summit Catalog after my last post. Figured I would do some Moroso reseach. Thanks for the website.



Lil' Dog, don't feel slighted. Any suggestion is always welcome on my part. I have to much going on to get creative. Just want to see if I can go off the shelve that's all.

 

[Chad Sheets]

Prelube pumps are there to get oil to the system before you crank it over. Shutting the fuel off while cranking isnt prelubing. That only creates more wear and tear.



You can hook them (prelubers) up to only lube cam journals, or crank journals, or both, or the entire lube system. There are air operated systems, electronic systems, and even manual systems. The manual ones require cranking a handle like on the old cars from the 20's.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Chad,



Maybe I didn't read what I thought I read? I am not at home now but will have to go read my manual again. I swear that's what it says, to crank it over with the selenoid closed to build up oil pressure. It's an 82' model with 3500 hours so I imagine it was just fired up more than once anyway. It runs smooth and uses no oil so I just gotta "bomb" it a little.



I don't think I want to have to hand crank anything though. I'll let that detail up to the old iron crowd.

 

[Chad Sheets]

It could say that, never can tell. I have saw some crazy advice in print before too. Think about it though. If thats how you prelubed an engine, all the engine manufactures would simply put an electronic gizmo on the fuel system to disable fuel flow, and call it a pre luber, and charge an extra $200 for it, and brag about how their engine comes with a built in pre luber.



The whole concept behind prelubing an engine is to get the oil flowing through all the passages before you get metal to metal movement/friction. If you ever build an engine new from the ground up (typical V8 gaser), one of the final things you do is stick a shaft down to the oil pump and spin it with a drill. This makes the oil pump suck oil out of the pan and circulate it through the entire engine without having to let anything inside that engine move, with the exception of the oil pump itself which is submeged in oil anyway.

Hope this helps.

 

[QRTRHRS]

I have not been by my dealer since I got to thinking about this. The one thing I need to do with this is stop by my Case dealer and see what the mechs have to say. This engine was available in several variations for quite some time. One older gent who works there in parts knows this machine real well.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Lets think about this. Which would cause more wear, having the engine go through several combustion strokes with no oil pressure or be spun over a few times with no fuel injected to build up oil pressure before adding the load ( injected fuel ). I had a diesel generator that said the same thing. They wanted the engine to be cranked with no load ( injected fuel ) until the low oil pressure light went out BEFORE you released the shutdown lever. If this was not done you could hear the bearings knock as it fired to life with no oil pressure. If you followed the instructions there was no bearing knock just the sweet sound of a diesel. I may be alone but I think they gave good startup advice.

 

[QRTRHRS]

I got the manual out, here is printed. "It is important that enough lubricant reaches the engine parts before starting and operating the engine at rated speed". Throttle to 1/3 open?, turn over for 30 seconds max, wait one minute, selenoid on, start engine.



Not much elaboration. I don't hear any bearing knock either way.

 

[Texas Diesel]

I wouldnt imagine it would take more than a few (5?) seconds for the oil pump to pressurize the system, the starter probably cranks it at about 300-500 RPM, so 3 seconds IMO would be about right. Seems like the Generator I was referring to took what seemed about 2 seconds for the oil light to go out. 30 seconds sounds like a eternity, perhaps you could add a mechanical oil pressure gauge or a 5 PSI switch/idiot light so you know know when you had built up oil pressure. It seems the engineers of your engine went to pretty good lengths to have you build pressure beefore adding fuel. Must be a reason.

 

[Chad Sheets]

Well, theres more than one way to jerk your chicken. You can do it dry and wear and tear evrything up. You can start out dry and add the lube as you go. Or you can do it the most common sence way... LUBE EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU START A STROKE



You could say theres no wrong way to prelube, but there sure is a better way than shutting the fuel off and cranking.



If that was such a great engineering idea, wouldnt you think the emergengcy generator sets, emergency fire pumps (ships that use diesel engines to pump water and spray fires out) oil fracs rigs, not to mention stand by diesel generators that keep entire hospitals running when prime power fails would use it?



I build these things listed above every day for one of the largest diesel engine producers known to man. Wear at initial start up is a big thing with these type of arangements. Shutting the fuel off and cranking it over dry to build oil psi is not much, if any better than just starting it up and going. We have done test on these type of things to get the knowledge we have... actual test, tearing down engines, chemical analysis of oils, mic'ing the bearings etc, etc.



HOWEVER, not every engine is a "life or death" set up. I wouldnt consider my tractor, my truck or my lawn mower a critical issue for start up reasons. Doing the fuel shut off thing might be a little better than just starting it up. But, if you want the best of the best , get the oil flowing before you get the engine spinning.

 

[QRTRHRS]

I usually go about 5-10 seconds then pause another 5-10. Your right about the guage. It only has an idiot light. Thing that got me wondering about this is how the starter sounds and how fast the engine cranks then seems to slow. It has that "battery has been around and starter has been spun a few zillion times" sound about it. I bought this beast back in February and as time permits am trying to service or stabilize everything. Next time I have a few minutes and a cup of hot coffee, I will mull over adding a guage.

 

[jddaniel]

Not that this really answers the question, but I've got a Case 2590 with the 504ci engine, and I've seen the same note in the owners manual.



I've tried to adhere to that, but I know that other hired hands and such haven't and with about 5000 hours on the tractor, it is still a strong runner,

with no major (engine) problems. This tractor has endured some severe abuse on our farm, so I am very impressed on how it has held up this much.



Trans is the weak link, just had it re-done, 2nd range powershift went away, CaseIH dealer found a rebuilt trans, cost about $5000 total.



JD

 

[QRTRHRS]

JD,



Mine is a 2090 4x4, 4spd with the 3spd pwr shift. I needed something to run a 15' wing mower with. Thought I would go with a 1066 or 1086 2wheel drive IH or similar model. Found this one at about the same price about 150 miles from home. Ended up paying asking price but with free delivery (a bit to heavy for my trailer). My major coo though was on the PTO. The knob was missing so I could not pull it on. I had it in the contract that the PTO should be tested and working. Turned out they had to pull and rebuild the PTO. transmission seems smooth so I keep my fingers crossed on that one.



Chad,



Appreciate the input. Just trying to learn what I can to keep this baby running and have money left for the Ram. Or is it the other way around?

 

[Chad Sheets]

Know what youre saying there. Hey, any idea what the timing (injection) is on that beast your working with? I was reading a Case manual the other day and it said 28 deg BTDC. I was a little stunned. Not use to seeing those numbers. Is that normal for Case??