Prime-Loc Setup On 24V ISB Engines Can Cause Injection Pump Failure!!!

Evan A. Beck · Nov 13, 2000

#ad
Hey guys...

#ad

I know you may not like to hear this, but the Prime-Loc system on 24V ISB trucks could cause injection pump failure.

Here's why:

The fuel lines Prime-Loc supplies with the kit are far too small. Take a look at the fittings on the ends, and you will see that they are VERY small, about a 1/8" passage for fuel to go through. The small lines and added hose are just asking too much for the little lift pump. It has to suck fuel from the tank, then push it through the Prime-Loc maze of hoses, and then through some banjo bolts, and finally to the injection pump.

After doing pressure tests on a couple of trucks, we found the Prime-Loc system takes away a HUGE precentage of fuel pressure, and delivers (at most) only a couple pounds of pressure to the injection pump. Not good at all, especially because the VP44 is lubed and cooled by diesel fuel. ABout 70-75% of the fuel supplied to the VP44 is returned to the tank, and if it doesn't get enough fuel (both in pressure and volume), the pump will overheat and fail. One truck in our shop, a '99 to be exact, did have an injection pump destoyed due to low fuel pressure caused by restriction of fuel in the Prime-Loc.

So my advice to you guys with the Prime-Loc is to test your fuel pressure ASAP. Especially you guys with modified engines.

ACCEPTABLE FUEL PRESSURE:

While cranking, the pressure should be between 5-7 psi, according to Dodge specs. With the engine running, fuel pressure should be a minimum of 10 psi, according to Dodge specs. If the pressures test below this with the Prime-Loc on there, remove the Prime-Loc, and test it again. If it still tests low, you may need a new lift pump. If your pressures are higher than the figures mentioned above, great.

#ad

Also, get your overflow valve checked as well. It should be opening at 14-16 psi. Overflow valves can malfunction by wither sticking open, or opening too soon. So be sure and check your overflow valve!

Bottom line...

Get your fuel pressure tested! It may save you an injection pump!!!

BOMBED

#ad

------------------

<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">



Evan A. Beck "NW PUNK"




'01 2500HD 4x2 QC, 139" WB, 6-speed, ETH, SLT... yadda yadda yadda... 25,769 miles since 4/26/00!




<marquee> #ad
Check out NW PUNK for more info! #ad
</marquee>


[This message has been edited by Evan A. Beck (edited 11-13-2000). ]

willyslover · Nov 14, 2000

Evan. . thanks for the tip... good to see you stoped in to the old haunt

Bob Wagner · Nov 14, 2000

Thanks Evan your advice is always welcome

#ad

[This message has been edited by Bob Wagner (edited 11-14-2000). ]

Evan A. Beck · Nov 14, 2000

Anytime, guys!

#ad

Bill Lins · Nov 14, 2000

Brother Sawzall- where you been hidin'?

------------------
Bill Lins Wharton, TX 98 2500 QC SLT,12 (the CORRECT # of)valves,NV4500,3. 54 LSD,Manik grille guard,Semi-Psychotty Air,Amsoil everywhere, Reading aluminum utility body and bumper,Optima yellow tops- silencer ring & muffler stolen.

BIG BOB · Nov 14, 2000

Thanks Evan,

Keep the inside scoop coming! We appreciate all we can get!

ggorremans · Nov 14, 2000

Evan/John,
Is there a reason why this post was directed only a 24v engines and not the rest of us with PrimLoc installed? I understand what you are telling us but low fuel pressure is low pressure no matter the pump. What am I missing?
Thanks..... Gary

------------------
'92 W250 LE 4x4, NV4500 5spd, Borgeson steering shaft, PrimeLoc

Dane · Nov 14, 2000

Good detective work guys! We owe ya... Once again the collective knowledge around here proves to be worth the membership fees. This is one post that better not get locked or deleted! Time for the manufacturer to step up to the plate...

------------------
2001 HO 6 speed Regular Cab SLT 4x4 3. 54 anti spin 2500. Used for the daily grind and sneaking away to some secret Baja beaches toting a cabover

John · Nov 15, 2000

NOTE: THIS POST IS IN TWO PARTS (TWO SEPARATE POSTS DUE TO THE INABILITY OF THE PROCESSOR TO PROCESS THIS POST IN ITS ENTIRETY).

The OTHER truck Evan was referring to (with the 24v Prime-Loc system. . that was tested), was MINE! At light to light/moderate throttle I had a LOW of -2. 2 psi (as measured at the OE filter head outlet port).

#ad
That's right, MINUS 2. 2 psi!

#ad

#ad
This was checked with VERY ACCURATE testing equipment (two Fluke multimeters with Fluke pressure transducers used simultaneously... at inlet and outlet test ports... at the OE filter head location and later at the Prime-Loc filter mount location). In addition, the meters and transducers were interchanged to eliminate (by double checking) any possible margin of error. Pressure differences noted after interchanging the equipment were WITHIN . 01 psi. The Pressure drop across the Fleetguard FS19519 fuel filter (specified filter for the 24v Prime-Loc system) was only 0. 2 psi (i. e. , virtually no restriction). From careful documentation kept by myself, we surmised the only reason the injection pump had not failed (yet) was due to the use of Diesel fuel conditioner at EVERY fill up since 3k mi. It's somewhat reassuring that at least some of the products I purchase actually perform as advertised/claimed. Now, which one of the two Diesel fuel conditioners was the savior? Was it the Red Line 85+ which I used from 3k mi. to about 38k, or the Amsoil Diesel Fuel Concentrate which I have used from about 38k to present (43. 9k)... or both? My guess is both. Also noteworthy was the inlet pressure to the OE filter head inlet port (directly from the output of the lift pump), which checked between 7. 5 and 9. 0 at IDLE.

#ad
Needless to say, the lift pump has to be replaced. Make no mistake about it; through careful testing and thorough evaluation of ALL the data (most of which has not been detailed here), the weak lift pump is NOT responsible for the dramatic pressure loss..... the Prime-Loc system is! In addition, the OE fuel lines from the hard supply line on the frame to the injection pump had been previously changed to Aeroquip -06 AN AQP (braided stainless steel) hoses (i. e. , flow is not a problem here).

------------------
'98. 5 2500 QC 4x4 Sport, Glasstite Vision II, 285 BFG A/Ts on M/T Challengers, Warn 4X Boards, Mopar fender flares & tow hooks, NW Custom s/s-rubber mud flaps, Mag-Hytec diff. cover & trans. pan, Edelbrock IAS shocks, Reese Titan V hitch, VDO Vision gauges, Dynamat, '00 Sport grille and headlights/PIAA Super White bulbs, PIAA Dual Sport 900 aux. lights, BD exh. brake and TorqLoc, Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass, Optima Yellow Tops, Bosch 275s, 10 level BD/TST PM3 (not installed yet), Aeroquip AQP braided s/s fuel hoses, Banks High Ram intake manifold (not installed yet) and 14 cm2 turbine housing/Big Head wastegate actuator, ATS 3-piece exh. man. , Banks 4" dia. s/s exh. sys. , BD V10/Cummins hybrid TC & valve body, BD trans. front pump & PressureLoc, Air Bulldog induction hood (with NACA ducts), plus MANY other trick modifications

Recycle Bin: Prime-Loc fuel filter relocation kit (JUNK!), VA CPC (upgraded to 10 level PM3), '00 Dodge/Cummins valve cover (changed my mind... stay tuned)

[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-14-2000). ]

John · Nov 15, 2000

PART TWO OF PREVIOUS POST:

What does all this mean to me? This is another case where I spent approximately $250. (including Prime-Loc PSID gauge) on another accessory that was extremely detrimental to the health and well being of my Ram and/or Cummins TD, more to the point (in this case), my Bosch VP44 injection pump!

#ad
, big time! Doesn't anyone spend any R&D money to properly engineer and test their products anymore? Is this just another case where John gets screwed out of another sum of money with no recourse? Needless to say, I'm so mad I could literally spit tacks! The owner of The PowerShop called Prime-Loc on our behalf (i. e. , the owner of the '99 24v and myself), and got nowhere! Isn't that just the way it goes now days?!

I would like to thank Chuck Arnold (owner of The PowerShop) for taking the time and VERY PROACTIVE approach to my Ram. . on a Saturday no less!

#ad
(he had suggested immediate testing. . after hours Friday evening). This is just one of many instances where I continue to be literally blown away by their exemplary customer service.

#ad
I would also like to thank Evan for his part and deep concern for my situation. Chuck really outdid himself this time. . when he hired you! Thank you for your involvement Evan, you are too

#ad
(even if you are still a "kid"

#ad
).

[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-14-2000). ]

Vaughn MacKenzie · Nov 15, 2000

John, I would rip that thing outa there and look into other filter possibilities. Have you gotten the most recent Amsoil newsletter about the diesel fuel filter/water separator assemblies? And I think Perma-Cool has a new spinon filter/water separator. I am going to do some checking into this when I get some time. I am thinking about setting my truck up with a spinon prefilter for improved performance and convenience.

Vaughn

dustoff · Nov 15, 2000

sounds like i should consider the removal of my prime-loc even though it is a 12V. i bought it used with the prime-loc already installed, so is there some parts i will need to purchase from d/c to put it back to factory? i don't know squat about the product and no install instructions, so comments would be greatly appreciated.

#ad

John · Nov 15, 2000

GLG, the reason the thread was only directed toward 24v Prime-Loc owners was due to unsubstantiated evidence on the 12v Prime-Locs... that is until Monday afternoon. Pressure checks performed by The PowerShop on a customers Prime-Loc equipped 12v revealed an outlet pressure (the pressure the injection pump sees) of 12 psi. Considering the pressure should be in the vicinity of 28 psi on a 12v... that's not good!

#ad
The Prime-Loc system was removed and an OE filter was installed. A subsequent pressure test revealed that outlet pressure had been substantially increased to around 28 psi (i. e. , virtually no restriction). Noteworthy is the fact that additional pressure checks in the Prime-Loc filter mounting head assembly revealed almost no restriction across the filter (ditto for my 24v Prime-Loc system... as well as the Prime-Loc installed on the other customers '99 24v).

Steve StLaurent and Turbo Terry, I hope you have been reading this thread.

Dane, I'm certain it will be a cold day in he!! before I get compensated for my Prime-Loc system. As stated before, the owner of The PowerShop already tried talking with Prime-Loc and was more or less blown off. What REALLY BITES is the fact that I purchased my entire Prime-Loc system from Cummins NW. You think they (of all people) would not peddle any garbage that would compromise the longevity of the engines they sell and service or the integrity of their company name (or the Cummins company name).

Vaughn, I'm going to install the new (replacement) OE filter housing assembly and OE Fleetguard filter element that the owner of The PowerShop procured for me... for free no less! I had given him my "old" OE filter housing base so he could perform a multitude of tests on his customers '99 24v (the one that HAD the Prime-Loc system installed). He elected to leave my unit (with my permission) on his customers '99 Ram in an effort to reduce any further delay imposed upon his customer.

The bottom line is this Vaughn, I'm not in the mood to screw around with any "new" ideas right now... even though I did see the new Amsoil fuel filtering systems that have just been released.

..... maybe later. . but that's only a great big maybe.

[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-15-2000). ]

John · Nov 15, 2000

dustoff, I would have your inlet and outlet pressures checked prior to the removal of your Prime-Loc system.

Also, If I'm not mistaken, the removal of the 12v Prime-Loc system ONLY requires a new Fleetguard spin-on type filter element to get you going again... unlike the 24v systems (where it requires some of the OE parts to restore the system back to stock form).

Steve St.Laurent · Nov 15, 2000

I have been watching it John, I have a stock filter on the way and still have all of my original OE parts - glad I saved them. I just had a brand new lift pump installed and have a fuel pressure gauge on the truck so I can get the pressures driving down the street as well. I've got to move my fuel senders over to the stock filter head first and I'll record the pressures there, then I will put the stock stuff back on and I will post my findings. I won't be able to get to it until next week at the earliest - it's hunting season (2 weeks, started today).

-Steve

[This message has been edited by Steve St. Laurent (edited 11-15-2000). ]

ggorremans · Nov 15, 2000

Thanks for the explanation, John. My PrimLoc was also installed by Cummins NW which concerns me. They shouldn't be putting out stuff like this which is potentially damaging. And it was not free!
I think I will get in touch with the Power Shop and see if they can/will check the pressures in my fuel lines... . I am not set up to do it and wanted to have them do a couple of other things anyway.
Again, thanks to both you and Evan.
gary

Sled Puller · Nov 15, 2000

Has anyone else contacted Prime -loc personally and alerted them to trouble?

Hearing their response would let us know what kind of company they are. I would assume they would back it up if enough guys start calling, keep their phone lines busy!

------------------
WANTED: Wrecked Dodges. 1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA www.awdist.com

Turbo Terry · Nov 15, 2000

I called them about a month ago. They said it couldn,t be possible. I,m calling them again now.

John · Nov 16, 2000

Steve, I was thinking of both you and Turbo Terry [both have 24v Prime-Loc systems] when I first heard the Prime-Loc news. With the initial information I learned from The PowerShop, added to the problems you two encountered... the puzzle pieces were starting to assemble and substantiate a possible widespread problem... and that was before we tested my truck.

Take a look at the inside diameter of the fittings... deep inside the fitting there is a rather acute restriction (small I. D. ) which would cause a major flow restriction.

The PowerShop replaced the Prime-Loc hoses and fittings on the '99 24v with brass Weatherhead barbed fittings and 5/16" I. D. (I believe) "rubber" fuel hose. As Evan has previously stated, this resulted in a 2 psi flow increase, suggesting there is more to the restriction problem than just the two hoses. I believe there is a restriction in either the Prime-Loc filter mount or the Prime-Loc adapter. . or both. This is supported by the fact that removal of the Prime-Loc system (with the higher volume hoses) and going back to the OE filtering system netted significant pressure gains (as would be seen by the injection pump).

BOTTOM LINE: If you own a Prime-Loc system (24v or 12v) check the outlet pressure (the pressure the injection pump sees) to see if you are receiving the specified pressure as specified in the CC/DC Shop Manual.

Turbo Terry · Nov 16, 2000

I,m here and not happy about this either. You know this was the first mod I did to my truck and I thought was a safe one. I thought it would make changing the fuel filter a snap. But the stock set-up is not a big deal. I think the my fuel additive helped save the pump. I to called Prime- Loc and their responce was it just could not be. I even argued with the Dodge dealer that the local Cummins dealer sells and installs Prime-Loc. I was a fool believing in this product. Something to be said about leaving it stock I guess.

Prime-Loc Setup On 24V ISB Engines Can Cause Injection Pump Failure!!!

Rough Ride

"FULL LOAD" FLOW TESTING proves - "Prime-Loc" WILL NOT HARM YOUR INJECTION PUMP!!!

Evan A. Beck

willyslover

Bob Wagner

Evan A. Beck

Bill Lins

BIG BOB

ggorremans

Dane

John

John

Vaughn MacKenzie

dustoff

John

John

Steve St.Laurent

ggorremans

Sled Puller

Turbo Terry

John

Turbo Terry

Similar threads

Turbo Diesel Register