Prime-Loc Setup On 24V ISB Engines Can Cause Injection Pump Failure!!!

[Bill Kondolay]

Hey, i just got in, its late here and we were working on a truck that had one today.
With the customers consent we took one apart and examined it. We found a couple interesting things we will post tomorrow.

Bill
Diesel Transmission Technology

We took some photos ect. and will show you what we noticed tomorrow.

 

[DieselB59]

I'm posting this one without yet knowing what Bill is going to say about his findings. Just another note from the shop floor. If the designers at Cummins, Inc wanted to have all sorts of crazy appendages spreading out from the engine, linked to it by various lengths of (sometimes questionable) hose and fittings, then the engines would have come with them from the factory. I get frustrated when I have a hard time working on things from time to time, but at no instance did a fuel filter ever cause me a challenge so as to toss in some kit and run lines to a place where I can better reach it. In my worst nightmares I see a beloved B engine with 14 different filters and multiple fittings (all leaking of course!) with enough hoses to circle the earth carrying the same oil over millions of miles just waiting to rupture and kill the engine. Why try to Rube Goldberg things (watched a program about him tonight) when the simplest solution to something is usually the best one and Cummins spent many a night thinking about the best way to filter the fuel and oil on these engines? Spend all that cash on horsepower. After all, these engines live quite happily in the high-horsepower ranges. Just look at the marine version. The floor is all yours Bill, I hope I didn't talk too long on this. I just have to say it the way I see it.

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Chris Timochko
1997 5sp 4X4, HX40, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, Custom Tuned Injection Pump, 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, Water Injection, NOS Diesel Kit, 6" Chrome Exhaust System, No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. Test mule for Auto Wurks Diesel race program

 

[Joe G.]

Amen Chris,

Prelubbers and remote filters all seemed to me to be potential engine killers. My truck is stock for filter stuff and I've learned to change them very quickly with no mess. If me engine has set for a long time or I've changed the oil I crank it until I get oil pressure before turning on the fuel solenoid. No plumbing nightmare for a prelubber for me and my fuel filter is down out of the way like Cummins did it.

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Joe George
Eureka, CA

'95 2500 CC auto 4X4,3. 54,Combo EGT/boost guage,custom switch panel,PacBrake,TST #5,BD valve body,Automatic motorhome steps on both sides,Foldacover hard bed cover,Cummins chrome kit,Black steel grill guard,Front hitch receiver

 

[Sled Puller]

Chris,
I somewhat agree with you as I do not have any extra plumbing problems. I always look at toys with the "headache factor" in mind.

However, do not forget that Cummins is also trying to shave costs at every step.

Sometimes an aftemarket gizmo kit is the BEST thing on the market, but NO WAY will they ever make it on from the factory, because the big boys can save 19 cents.

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WANTED: Wrecked Dodges. 1997 Cummins Dodge 4x4 Bombed & Amsoiled
Member of TDR,LIC-ROC,GLTDR,NRA www.awdist.com

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Hey guys,
My computer skills are showing their true colors, i cant get the photos to load up, i will have someone come in and do it for me.

The basics of the prime loc that we found out was that there was no restrictions in the block which were all above 1/4" ID< the fittngs were 3/16" ID < which is comprobable to the factory lines ID.

Jonn Chenoweth, i am sorry if i got the spelling wrong , the two lines in his truck from the factory location to the remote location on one of the fittings we could not pass through a 1/8th drill bit,
it seems when the lines were being crimped they were being pinched, of the 4 fittings only one was below 1/8th ".

Johns truck was a 1999 , the id on his factory lines was about 3/16 of an inch.

On my 2000 Dodge Ram , the factory line comming from the lift pump to the fuel filter, the id on my fittings was less than 1/8th of an inch.

I have since drilled my fittings from the lift pump to the fuel filter to 3/16th of an inch.

I know this is no where adquate for the power i am trying to run through this truck, however sometimes we all get a little lazy.

As far as the prime loc is concerned im not aware of it being sold as a performance product, i could be wrong , i have never sold one or installed one i was just very curious.

Based on my observations for those guys bombing their trucks , i would suggest that you replace the two lines from # 4 , to # 6 lines.

Bill
Diesel Transmission Technology

[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 11-17-2000). ]

 

[DieselB59]

MGM,
I agree whole-heartedly with you on that one. After all, I may be very conservative as far as standing behind certain types of products..... but I also DO love the toys! If not for the toys, we all would become bored of the everyday tasks of driving. I also just think way ahead of myself when purchasing a "toy" to avoid the headache factor. The job alone is stressful enough at times, the ride home doesn't have to be. #ad


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Chris Timochko
1997 5sp 4X4, HX40, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, Custom Tuned Injection Pump, 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, Water Injection, NOS Diesel Kit, 6" Chrome Exhaust System, No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. Test mule for Auto Wurks Diesel race program

 

[John]

I agree with you MGM... OE is not always the best way, just a compromise of actual cost weighed against the value added factor. Case in point; Cummins told me that roller lifters were cost prohibitive on the B engine however, they use them in their N14s... why, because they are superior... also quite a bit more expensive. I guess it all boils down to how much the customer is willing to pay for the Cummins option in these Rams.

BTW Chris, my -06 AN Aeroquip AQP ("rubber"/braided stainless steel) fuel hoses (from the frame forward) and -08 AN Aeroquip Teflon/braided stainless steel supply/return hoses from my Amsoil Dual Remote bypass system do not leak. If you know what you are doing there are no problems.

Both MGM and Chris, I spend more time researching proposed upgrades, analyzing cause and effect than you could possibly imagine (ask any of the vendors that have dealt with me or any of my friends). Bottom line, I never shoot from the hip half cocked.

The reason I purchased the Prime-Loc fuel filter relocation kit in the first place was due to all the positive comments I had read regarding same in issues of the TDR... . EXCEPT, that was in reference to the 12v. The 24v fuel filters can be changed very easily. I found this out AFTER I had purchased the Prime-Loc kit (JUST after they were released for the 24v). After having owned one (irrespective of the restriction issue) I consider the 24v Prime-Loc to be a total waste of money.

Bill, of the two 24v Prime-Loc kits I've seen, both have had the one restrictive fitting (out of a possible of four). The first thing I thought of was increasing the hose/fitting diameter however, there are MANY other hoses, cables and wiring harnesses near the location where the Prime-Loc supply/return hoses run... as it is, the OE Prime-Loc hoses with their protective split loom covers, rub on the fuel filter in several places (unavoidable). The Prime-Loc filter I just removed had a small area that had been rubbed at least . 003" deep into the steel "can". What would have happened if I hadn't changed filters for say. . 20k mi. or so. I figured additional hose diameter would magnify the problem of being able to install the fuel filter... it's tight! Hoses, wiring harnesses etc. must be pushed out of the way to install the filter... . (and I spent quite a bit of time trying to eliminate. . or at least reduce) this problem. Chuck (owner of The PowerShop and I believe there is also some restriction in the Prime-Loc filter mounting head and/or the adapter. Various tests have supported this.

All I can say now is, good riddens to bad rubbish! The Prime-Loc is gone and so is the OE lift pump... installed a new one yesterday.
... . now, for the 10 level BD X Power/TST PM3 installation. #ad
Any bets to whether my VP44 will self destruct?

... . knock on wood

#ad

 

[Turbo Terry]

Please call Prime-Loc and tell them of your displeasure. Makes you wonder how many injector pumps have/ will go bad from this? I may be done spending my hard money on this truck as I think the aftermarket people are beginning to take advantage of our love of our trucks and our money.

 

[tlippy]

Evan - great info! Thank You! I called Cummins NW in Bend yesterday and allerted them to the problem. They were appreciative. They did say that they have not installed a Prime Loc on any 24 valves because the OE's are so easy to service. Thanks Again!

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99' Quad 4x4 A/T LB 3. 54 30K Miles.
26' Terry w/slide 7500GVWR
"KISS your truck and it will be forever faithful"

 

[Timinator]

John,
Could you give us the specs on the braided stainless fuel hose and fittings that you used with your Amsoild setup? I don't know what to ask for when it comes to the braided hoses and fittings, but I would like to put it on my truck. Thanks.

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'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD

 

[Timinator]

John,
Could you give me the specs on the braided stainless fuel hose and fittings that you used with your Amsoil setup? I don't know what to ask for when it comes to the braided hoses and fittings, but I would like to put it on my truck. Thanks.

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'95 2500 SLT ClubCab, automatic, 3. 54 LSD

 

[Driftwood Ram]

I too got my prime-loc at Cummins NW in Fife. Last year sometime I had a fuel leak that looked like it was comming from around the lines, but could not be sure. I took it down to Cummins NW and they found the lines were cloged causing fuel to leak out around the fittings. They replaced the lines and everything has been o. k. so far, but it looks like I need to have the pressure checked. Can anyone suggest a shop somewhere around Tacoma,Wa. Preferable one that I can get to on the weekend. Thanks. Tracy

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96 2500 4x4 Driftwood auto Waren 4x boards pyro,boost,trans temp on a piller mag hytec trans

[This message has been edited by TRACY MURPHY (edited 11-18-2000). ]

[This message has been edited by TRACY MURPHY (edited 11-18-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

Tracy... the Power Shop in Enumclaw is not that far away, and I highly recommend them. Very sharp guys down there.
Call 360-825-9400, they will work with ya on the weekend, also!
Let us know, and maybe a few of us could come down and see ya while you are there!

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Lee, what Primeloc has available is a fuel pressure differential gauge - it simply shows the amount of pressure differential pre and post filter. A number of us have set up actual fuel pressure gauges with a switch to go between pre and post filter, you just have to do the math. The BIG advantage to this setup is that you can see what your actual fuel pressures are while driving down the road. You can see my post at https://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb//Forum3/HTML/001088.html on my install. Right now my sender's are hooked up at the prime loc test ports. I'm going to be moving them to the stock filter head on my '98. 5 so that I can test from the same port with the prime loc and with the stock filter. I'm just waiting for a stock filter to arrive in the big brown truck to do the testing. On 00'+ trucks the hookup is different than on the 98. 5-99 trucks but can also be done.



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-Steve St. Laurent - President of the Great Lakes TDR
'98 QC LB (CMNSPWR), 4x4, ISB, 5sp, 4. 10 LSD, TST Powermax, 275hp RV injectors, SW fuel pressure gauge, BD exhaust brake, Isspro turbo temp monitor, front Draw-Tite receiver, rear Draw-Tite class V receiver, BFG 285/75R16 AT KO's, (all the common stuff clipped)

 

[John]

Hey Tim, the Aeroquip products I used for my Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass installation were as follws:
#FCC0806 6' of -08 AN Teflon Racing Hose
#FCM1123 -08 AN 90 degree fittings (STEEL)
#FCM1104 -08 AN straight fittings (STEEL)

All the items mentioned can be purchased from Summit Racing: 1-800-230-3030 www.summitracing.com

[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-18-2000). ]

 

[DocStressor]

Steve- Your setup may just be what I am looking for, but I'm a bit confused. What is the output at the gauge? The pressure differential like the PrimeLock, psi at the in port (lift pump output), or psi at the out port?

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1999 Quad cab 2500, SB, SLT, 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 54, tow and camper package, Lance 820 camper, Lance cabover stabilizers, Rancho 9000s, Airlift airbags

 

[DocStressor]

The most attractive feature of the PrimeLoc system is the availability of a fuel pressure gauge. From marine applications, I'm used to changing filters when the fuel outlet pressure begins to fall. I agree that changing the stock filter on the 24V is no big deal. But does anyone know if there is an available fuel pressure gauge for the stock filter setup? I mean a permanently mounted one as on the PrimeLoc.

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1999 Quad cab 2500, SB, SLT, 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 54, tow and camper package, Lance 820 camper, Lance cabover stabilizers, Rancho 9000s, Airlift airbags

 

[Driftwood Ram]

Originally posted by Rob Hanson:
Tracy... the Power Shop in Enumclaw is not that far away, and I highly recommend them. Very sharp guys down there.
Call 360-825-9400, they will work with ya on the weekend, also!
Let us know, and maybe a few of us could come down and see ya while you are there!

Rob, After sleeping on it I think I am going back to Cummins NW. This is where the Prime-loc was purchased and installed and I am sure they can do a fuel pressure check.

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96 2500 4x4 Driftwood auto Waren 4x boards pyro,boost,trans temp on a piller mag hytec trans

[This message has been edited by TRACY MURPHY (edited 11-18-2000). ]

 

[John]

Lee, I purchased the Prime-Loc PSID gauge along with my Prime-Loc system. The gauge mounts over the two Prime-Loc test ports located on the side of the remote filter mount. The gauge has no numbers... just a black line separating the green (go) and red (no go) segments of the gauge. The go/no go line equates to 5 psid across the fuel filter.

Steve went with a Stewart Warner fuel pressure gauge he mounted in the cab of his Ram. He adapted two pressure isolaters, one to each of the Prime-Loc test ports, and with a switch, he can "toggle" between before and after (the filter) pressures.

I'm going to add two fuel pressure gauges in an Autometer dash top (triple) mount. Now all I need to do is figure out what extra gauge to add to fill up the third hole. #ad
Wow, that's seven gauges... look out Joe, I'm catchin' up. #ad

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Lee, John is right. The gauge shows fuel pressure in PSI at either before the filter or after the filter depending on the switch. So in other words to check the restriction to take the pre filter reading, then throw the switch and subtract the post filter reading from it to get the pressure differential. Personally I think that monitoring the lift pump pressure is MUCH more important than monitoring the fuel filter condition. I'm on my third lift pump - the 2nd one didn't even last 6,000 miles. Still waiting on the fuel filter and I'll let you guys know my findings.

-Steve