Project 2nd Gening The Crew

[RSchwarzli]

O. K. guys. You all know I can't leave well enough alone. Provided the funds are there after the summer I will tackle this over the winter, so I am doing my research now so I can start keeping an eye out for stuff. For those that don't know my truck is a 80's D350 crew with a 93 W250 Cummins driveline that was installed years ago. The trans is starting to go, I want a 5600, and the eventual plan is to twin turbo the sucker anyways so I will need to do everything heavyduty the first time so I don't have any issues later.



The project:



To take out the entire driveline (axles, engine, transfer case, trans) and replace with 98 12V, NV5600 trans, Dana 80 rear with disks, and the transfer case and front axle would be the coresponding units for the 5600. After recovering financially from that, my plan is to twin turbo and have 500-600 HP.



The Quetions:



1. Will this all work in a first gen (axles,trans. etc)? Is there a major thing I am overlooking?

2. How hard is this project outside of my perfect world mind?

3. Will the frame need strengthening (80's gasser frame)?

4. Will there be clearance issues with anything?

5. I have heard of Dana 80's being put in, but how about the 2nd gen front axle (can't use the 1st gen as the t-case side drop is wrong)?

6. Can antilock be brought into this thing now that I have mostly 2nd gen parts?

7. Will anything need to be done to handle the increased weight?

8. Anyone want to take a guess at what this project might cost?



Also:



1. Will anything have to be beafed up while I am at it to handle the horsepower I am looking at?

2. What can be done to improve the handling of the truck (all over the road now)?

3. Where do I get rid of a compleate W250 driveline and how much is it worth. Everything is in good condition, except for the trans which is starting to make noises. The driveline that is in the truck has 150k miles or 250k kilos on it.



Oboiusly this will be a challenge, but I am needing some outside opinions and guideance. The big question is can this be done and how hard. I am sure now that I am going to post more quetions will come to mind but I am sure you will all be making more questions in my mind anyways. Thans for reading this and helping me.

Robert

 

[Kirwin]

NV 5600 swap

If you only want to get the NV 5600 why are you replacing all the rest of the drive train? Off the top of my head, I would guess that there will be differences in the sheet metal for the transmission and transfer case shifter. I put a Cummins with the 518 transmission in a 85 Ramcharger. The computer system that controls the transmission upshift to OD and certain engine function such as intake manifold heater etc, will have to be considered. I bought a engine bay wiring harness and computer from Dodge and spliced every wire at the firewall bulkhead connector to make it work for me. I would also think that you would have to custom make your transmission mounts and center bearing mount for the drive shaft. This was easy for me as the 89 Ram vintage mounts worked on the Ramcharger frame and since the Ramcharger was so short the center bearing was not needed. I wanted mine to look like it came from the factory with a Cummins so I also replaced the part of the dash with the diesel WTS and WIF lights. I have over $30K in my Ramcharger, but as I said I was after the factory installed look. Good luck lets us know how it goes. Ken Irwin

 

[TKingsbury]

I replied to some of your questions a while back in the crewcab thread I think, so here goes with the re-hash. ONE;keep your front axle/suspension. Unless you want to link it and coil spring it, there is no reason to mess with it. Even if you do want to link and coil spring it, use your axle anyway. Your front axle is heavier duty than a 2nd gen model. TWO; adapt your current NP205 t-case to the 5600 and be happy that you have a beefy t-case with minimal work. THREE; if you're gonna be pushin the power, by all means, switch to an 80 rear with discs if you like. If you go disc, get an master cyl that is designed for 4 wheel discs. Shouldn't be too hard, but will require some looking into. Don't overlook car applications as the masters from many cars will bolt to our boosters. I feel this would be the easiest way to make a bomb proof drivetrain without major fab work and reinventing the wheel.

Travis. .

 

[bgilbert]

What Travis said, plus keep your motor you have now, no need to spend the big $$$ on another 12V. You'll be fine with what ya got bro. Just get yourself a new transmission be it 6speed or nv4500 5sp and a dually rear end be it a 70 or 80, 70 will be bolt up no fab work. Also as Travis put it, don't try to reinvent the wheel. You got what you need right there.

 

[RSchwarzli]

Well, umm yah. I agree . Yes Travis, you did respond earlier. But to explain to yall how I came about this, I am going to explain how I think. Might want to get a beer for this one.



The first issue was the trans. Obious replacement is a 5600. Next I need to get a real dually axle, and planning on pushing some juice a 80 is probably needed anyways. From here I thought it would be easyer to use a second gen t case as it would jive with the 2nd gen trans. No modification needed. But then a problem arose. Left vs right drop. No problem, I would like to get a real 1 ton axle up front anyways, so that was just fine. Added bonus is that I don't have to lock the hubs when I need 4WD, always nice in the winter. 2nd gen more advanced than 1st, stronger axle/ t case as bonus. The suspention was going to stay the same. As for the engine, I have been informed time after time that to have the cheapest rought to major HP and reliability was to have a 2nd gen 12V. Also lower mileage on the pull out would be added bonus. This is how my warped brain works.



Also something to note. I am fairily new to all this TDR stuff, so some of my thoughts may seem pretty far out to you fully versed folks, hence I try to stirr up your opinions/thoughts so I learn. Looking forward to your wisdom .

Robert

 

[Paychk]

One little thing most don't consider with the 5600 is: no speedo output of any kind from the trans. Not sure on the 90 model truck if it is electronic or cable and where it is driven from transmission or transfer case? Just food for thought.



Good luck!

 

[therabbittree]

mummn i think the 205 gear drive transfer case is stronger then the 2nd gen 241hd chain driven case... . I would just adapt the 205 to the 5600 its not oo hard. . and its stronger. . plus you don't have to swap front ends. . that would be apain i think to swap front side to side etc... . a rear end swap would be easy too. . save your $ just do the trans and rear... . real axles have manual hubs... ha. . plus the 1st gen is stronger front axle no funky axle disconnect. . etc. . 2nd gen is aways running one side. . etc... when you do the 5600 get a BIG clutch the first time . . spend the $ once not twice when you upgrade the power... if your getting all of the parts at once or from a wrecked truck . . then heck swap the 12v p pump engine in too but i wouldn't use the 2nd gen t case... .

thats my 2 cents...

Thanks

Deo

 

[RSchwarzli]

Paychk, hmm, good thought. Although if I get the coresponding rear (Dana 80) if I am not wrong, is the speedo not run off of the rear?



Am I gathering correct that the only thing stronger on the 2nd gen driveline is the Dana 80 (obiously cause it is bigger than a 70) and the 5600? I never knew that the 2nd gen t case was chain driven . Or that one side always ran. Yeah guys, I am slowly seeing the light that newer aint always better. Knowing this all simplifies and cheepifies ( new word) things.



Hows that about the manual hubs on the rear?



As for the clutch I will definetally do it right the first time. I hate week links and I hate doing things twise (part of the reason I was planning to do all 2nd gen the first time, as I see most people with big HP have 2nd gen drivelines, hence means they are beefy etc. ). Feel free to all make your recomendation on clutches. I will be using the 2000 up trans.



Keep all the info and opinions comming and thanks for all of your patience with me. It if definetally appreciated.

 

[TKingsbury]

Well, if you buy a parts truck you wont be gettin a 12v with a 6 speed unless someone did the swap already. You are gonna have to piece this thing together, so I would use the easiest parts (which happen to be the best). Your front axle IS a real one ton axle, it just doesn't have the dually hubs. If you want auto hubs, see if the ones off of a mid 90s Ford 60 will fit (might have to run Ford stub shafts). If they don't, get the ford dually outers with auto hubs and kill both birds that way. I'd stick with the 205 case too just for super beef, no chain to stretch when your puttin the power to it. And sure, swap in a Dana 80, nothing but good can come of it. I think I stated this in the crewcab thread, but I'll say it again. Do each step individually, don't tear apart the whole truck and work on it here and there. Finish each major system then move on to the next. That way you can still roll it around if need be, and it won't overwhelm you.

Travis. .

EDIT: Just want to clearify why I don't like the 2nd gen front end. It has a CAD (center axle disconnect), ball joint knuckles, and unit wheel bearings. Besides the diff being on the wrong side, the other stuff is less than desireable.

 

[RSchwarzli]

Ok then. 5600, Dana 80, front hubs, and depending on where I get my parts, mabee a newer 12V. What is involved with each item?

 

[TKingsbury]

Ok then. 5600, Dana 80, front hubs, and depending on where I get my parts, mabee a newer 12V. What is involved with each item?

The 5600 swap has been done in a 1st gen, so do a search, I don't know who did it. I believe RonA has a dana 80 in his 1st gen, try PMing him, nice guy. And the front hubs should be just like doing wheel bearings. If you get Dodge parts, it will bolt together easily. I believe you will only need the hub/rotor assy, the spindle and caliper and stuff should be the same (don't quote me though ). If you try to use Ford outers, you will most likely need everything from the knuckle out including stub shafts and maybe the knuckle itself. Hows that? I gave it a shot.

Travis. .

 

[Kirwin]

Speedometer Stuff

The speedometer was driven by the transfer case output shaft speed sensor on the second gens up until and including 97. Then in 98 they used the output from the ABS sensor in the differential and it went completely electronic. I believe the first gens used a cable I know my 89 did It was driven from with the same setup as in the old days, gear cable into back of the speedometer. Ken Irwin

 

[NCovey]

Is it possible to bolt only the dually wheel adapters from the front axle of a 2nd gen to the 90's axle, or is the hub too big to fit through the center of the adapter?

 

[TKingsbury]

I am not 100% certain, but I think the 1st gen hubs are 1 piece, and the second gens use an adapter. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe a guy could use the 2nd gen adapter on the early hub . I dunno, might be worth a shot.

Travis. .

EDIT: I believe B said his truck was converted with a 92. That being said, it does need a mechanical speedo output which would then have a signal converter put in to run the electronic speedo. If he sticks with his 205, nothing will have to be modified.

 

[NCovey]

The 2nd gen does use an adapter, that is what I was implying when I was talking about bolting them on to the 1st gen's existing front axle. I have a set that I am going to try to bolt onto the front of my f-350 for the dually conversion, if they will fit. -Nicholas

 

[RSchwarzli]

Ok. I have done some PMing and some searchin and some more resaerch. I have decided I will go Dana 80, 5600, 205, 1st gen front axle with 1st gen dually hubs. I will also keep an eye out for a 12V. It is much easyer to just use the first gen parts on the 1st gen axle. I will attempt to keep it simple.



Anyone have theries on a ABS setup for this?

 

[TKingsbury]

I don't think I'd mess with ABS myself. The 1st gen stuff is junk. If a guy wanted to spend alot of time and probably money, the only way to go would be 4 channel. That would require a sensor at each wheel and a computer with plenty of inputs to make it work. Seems like a big hassle to me. A properly balanced system and driver skill are about all that is required. These are just my opinions.

Travis. .

 

[RSchwarzli]

Alrighty. Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[moremph]

start doing some research on your engine, thiere are several guys affordable making 5-600 hp on #2 only with the ve pump and a modded rotor head.



Travis

 

[RSchwarzli]

Can I here anyone say, that me, pick me.