Here I am

Propane users? Anybody left?

Attention: TDR Forum Junkies
To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.

Thanks, TDR Staff

This is weird

Badges/emblems on eBay

Status
Not open for further replies.
Is there anyone around that runs propane fumigation on a 1st Gen? I can't seem to find anyone. I've posted in 3 different threads in the alternative fuels forums, with no response for days. I've searched and searched, and it seems as if it was a "fad" a decade ago, but I can't find anyone that is using LPG currently.

Did it not work? Were there never many that used it in the first place? Do those who use it not want to admit it? :-laf

It seems if there was ever a time to gain significant mileage and efficiency using a fuel that costs 50% of diesel, it would be now?

I'm really interested in running LPG for fumigated dual-fuel application. I'd like to push the percentage of LPG higher than most, and use progressively controlled water injection to limit the pressure rise rate and slow down the burn duration. However, the amount of information available regarding propane and first gens in slim. The information on water injection and first gens is little. The information I've found on propane and water injection being used at the same time on first gens is zilcho.

Someone help here, and don't make me be the guinea pig! :D

--Eric
 
i used it on my 99 back in the day. really liked it. i used a self built system that injected the propane into the hose between the filter and turbo. i would imagine it would work the same with a first gen.



maybe when i build my flat bed this winter ill add a under bed tank and propane the old 93..... maybe
 
it really was just a fad i think. i personally never used it, but i did look at its operation. honestly im not really sure how much you are going to gain. the octane and cetane ratings of the two fuels makes for an interesting read if your into science. i have a book that actually explains the whole thing and it was what finally turned me away from it completely. ill pull it tonight and find the section and post the information for you on it. i do remember that they talked that msd had the best system.



as far as water injection goes, i need more info about how your thinking about using it. could you explain it a little more please.
 
used it on my 99 back in the day. really liked it. i used a self built system that injected the propane into the hose between the filter and turbo. i would imagine it would work the same with a first gen.

What results did you see from it?

honestly im not really sure how much you are going to gain. the octane and cetane ratings of the two fuels makes for an interesting read if your into science. i have a book that actually explains the whole thing and it was what finally turned me away from it completely. ill pull it tonight and find the section and post the information for you on it. i do remember that they talked that msd had the best system.

as far as water injection goes, i need more info about how your thinking about using it. could you explain it a little more please. <!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Well, I've read alot of good, alot of bad, and alot of hype. I've read on many forums, general internet info, etc, and came up with a lot of information, and probably alot of misinformation as well. On the internet, it's sometimes easy for people to repeat what they've heard instead of what they know :/ I've found about 8 SAE papers on the subject of LPG fumigation in CI diesel engines, and have just begun reading through them.

In short, I *think* that people who say it doesn't work, either didn't use high enough concentration to make a difference, or used so much that they got bad engine knocking and pre-detonation. However, most people who say it works are advertisers, or users who just installed a system. There's little veritable information on it's true effects/benefits with continued use (that I've found).

I *think* it's documented that running LPG fumigation reduces PM, reduces HC and NOx except for at full load, and increases efficiency some. If all you did was displace some diesel with LPG, it'd still be of benefit, as LPG costs roughly half of #2 diesel. However, I think there is some efficiency benefit aside from just the added energy of another fuel. Using LPG also seems to lessen soot contamination of the oil, and add a good bit of power.

The major downsides to LPG fumigation seem to be, increased in-cylinder temperature, and high pressure rise rate. In other words, the mixture lights off considerably quicker as heavier concentrations of LPG are used. In the extreme sense, this can cause knocking, pinging, stretched heat bolts, blown head gaskets, etc. From what I understand about water injection, it seems to "fix" both of the above shortcomings of LPG. Water serves to lower in-cylinder temperatures, and to slow down, if you will, the burn process, such that combustion occurs over a longer time.

I recently bought a DOT approved LPG tank made by Manchester tank. It's a 45 gallon tank that I plan to install in the bed of the truck. I bought a Woodward LPG negative pressure vaporizer. Engine coolant passes through it to ensure consistant vaporization of the propane.

This is the "kit" I bought for the LPG injection (minus the tank and pressure line): DIESEL PROPANE INJECTION KIT-CUMMINS-POWERSTROKE-DURAMAX-UP TO 100 HP!--NEW | eBay


I have this Cooling Mist water injection system with the variable rate controller: Water Injection, Methanol Injection, Alcohol Injection Systems: Coolingmist

--Eric
 
Last edited by a moderator:
eric, i always enjoy these conversations with you. if you dont mind ill get my books out tonight and get some more info (its been a while since i looked at this stuff). i know that you know your stuff and are not talking out your ___. ill see what info i have on it to help aid you, i am rather interested in what you find out. just be ready to defend it a little.
 
eric, i always enjoy these conversations with you. if you dont mind ill get my books out tonight and get some more info (its been a while since i looked at this stuff). i know that you know your stuff and are not talking out your ___. ill see what info i have on it to help aid you, i am rather interested in what you find out. just be ready to defend it a little. <!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

That'd be great, and any information you have would be appreciated! I'm not sure though if I'm in a position to defend it or not... but I'll take that position until proven otherwise :)

--Eric
 
eric, my 99 dually was modded to the hills. 80hp injectors, tst powermax, modded turbo, dtt full transmission. propane is the last mod i did. it was like poor mans Nos. when turned up. i controlled when it came on by boost pressure. i could also regulate the amount of lp. i mostly used it to gain mpg towing my snowmobile trailer. i would turn the lp down and had it come on at about 12lbs boost. so on the long hills of northern vermont the propane would kick in and i wouldnt have to us so much pedal to gut up those hills.



when hotrodding around, you could really tell if it was on or off. i imagine just like nos.



geez, i sure do miss that truck!
 
it really was just a fad i think.
I don't know if it was a "fad" so much as people just tend primarily toward water/methanol injection instead.

I did some reading a while back about propane injection, and it seems the reasons a lot of people give for not using it have nothing to do with its performance. They just don't like having a tank of compressed, flammable gas sitting in their truck when they can get similar performance from water/methanol injection (better, perhaps, if you aren't coupling the propane injection with water injection).

I wanted to go with propane, because I was planning on converting my Jeep to propane-only. Commonality of fuel, could double as fuel for a stove/grill while out wheeling/camping, etc...

Now I'm leaning towards water/methanol, though. Again, not because of the lack of performance of propane, mostly just because there is much better aftermarket support for water/methanol injection.
 
pulled my book out last night and read through it. i was going to post but could not seem to organize my thoughts. some of the numbers i think we will need in this is the octane and ignition temps. propane has an octane of 110, auto ignition of 842, and from an msds sheet i found it has a flash point of -156 degrees (recalling from memory might be off but i remember it was really low) diesel has an octane of 15 to 25 and an auto ignition of 494, flash point is 250 (i think) but that doesnt really matter here.



a concern raised in the book was with fumigation, the propane is evenly spread throughout the air charge. the diesel is injected and lights off. here the book and i differ on theory. the book says the cylinder temps climbs to the auto ignition point of the propane and then the propane lights off and burns the oxygen faster than the diesel can. the book also mentioned when things go wrong, the diesel falls out of suspension and pools on the piston, then ignites later causing knock and very high heat. i disagree with that part.



what i think happens is the diesel lights off, since the temp is above the flash point of propane, the propane burns quickly and consumes the oxygen before the diesel, what ever is left the diesel burns, the left over diesel just exits the exhaust. on a side note, an old trucker i know told me about when he used to run propane on his two stroke detroit, pulling the grape vine in so. cal. when he was climbing it would shoot 8ft flames out the stack. i think that was the left over diesel burning in the exhaust.



so, looking around i found some of the same things eric commented he had found, i still am not a fan of propane but i think done correctly it could provide a cost effective boost in fuel mileage.



eric, remember that discussion we had about engine timing? we started talking about the burn window and optimizing it. the way to build power and get the most out of the diesel fuel being burned is to keep the pressure in the cylinder as high as possible for as long as possible. this is where a dual fuel can really shine. both fuels are burning at the same time, i think though with a timing advance the diesel will start to light, the propane builds cylinder pressure first, then the diesel brings up the last of it. this will lengthen out the time the cylinder has peak pressure. creating more power and better fuel mileage. all you want to do is augment the diesel, not displace it. too much propane and itll waste the diesel, too little and its not worth doing. keep in mind that when you fumigate the intake, it displaces the o2 needed for the whole thing, thus changing the amount needed for proper operation. Eric, keep in mind as well that water injection is going to displace more air and further affect how it all mixes.



if we can add only enough propane for the amount of oxygen left over from the diesel combustion then it just might work. using the propane for fuel mileage would mean it is going to be operating most of the time, boost based activation is probably not going to work. here is what i am thinking. the propane needs to be run at an additive level, some where around 5% or less. this is where it can get complicated, what is really needed is a efi sort of system, with an o2 sensor, air flow sensor, absolote pressure sensor, and "injector" outputs. with all of that in there then it could tune for the load, rpm, and air density. this way you would only put in enough propane to consume the remaining o2. other wise i think we are going to run into a lot of issues that have been mentioned.



i have not been able to organize my thoughts and the above is just the thoughts racing through my head. i hope everyone can sort through them and figure out what it is im trying to say. ill check back in to read your comments on them later.
 
Hmmm... thanks for the thoughts. The more I look into this, the more I realize I need to get back to the books.

I'm with you, in that I don't believe diesel fuel falls out of suspension and pools on the piston, igniting later and causing knock. I've never heard of knock being caused by late combustion. At that point, the volume is very large as the piston is on its way down, and colliding pressure waves are highly unlikely.

I was thinking on fuel properties extensively today. I better do some more thinking before I comment much in this regard.

That being said, I need to do alot more reading before I comment much on anything.

However, I will say that with diesel combustion, you are very rarely (never) at stoichiometric conditions under stock conditions. Stoichiometric refers to the perfect amount of fuel and air being combined, such that after combustion there is an excess of neither. The beauty of diesel, is that it will autoignite in a super wide range of mixtures. Since diesels always run lean, there is always excess oxygen in the exhaust. I realize that on heavily modified engines, you can go rich, but I'm not interested in that aspect so much as I am in increasing fuel economy on a "normal" diesel engine for day to day operations.

Theoretically, you'd want 100% of heat release to occur immediately after TDC over zero crank rotation for optimum power and bsfc. Practically, too much heat release in too short of time causes too high of peak pressure rise. Mechanical failure results. However, heat release has less and less effect on power output as it occurs farther after TDC... there's simply less "leverage" on the piston. So, yes, sustained and properly timed burn duration is critical, and is the key to power/economy.

My confusion as of now, results in how propane fumigation effects ignition delay, heat release, burn duration, pressure rise, etc. I read a paper last night on the subject, but the work was done on a normally aspirated diesel, and I don't think it really applies well.

Here's a good link that I need to do some reading on:
Gas Explosion Handbook

Have a great weekend!

--Eric
 
Here we go.



Well, first hand experience tells me more is not better. Too high propane ratio causes the dreaded cylinder pressure rise and knocking, let alone the detrimental cost of adding another fuel, on top of diesel costs..... Low numbers and effeciency are what you're looking for. I've built two of my own systems, one from an old carbuerated gas engine, and another for direct injection from a regulated source through an electric solenoid. Today, I wouldn't do either of them. While both were somewhat effective, the latter much more so, neither were precise. The adjustable valving on the carbuerated setup was prone to sticking open and other surprises... ... . It was installed to vent directly into the air filter housing, which was pretty crude. The solenoid setup was at first actuated by a pressure switch on the cable lever behind the pump (1st gen), and was set off by throttle position mechanically, and then later upgraded to actuate under boost, by boost setting off the electric solenoid at @ 15psi. The desired affect was to have more power while pulling hills. It worked, but left a great amount of room for improvement. The power increases were noticable, especially on a stock truck that had little mods, and only a minimal timing and fueling screw adjustment. Ideally, to me, the system would be more mechanical than electronic. I know you guys like the electronics, but I would like to see a system that didn't engage until 5psi boost, with a variable actuator that opened with boost... ... . the parameters are simple... . it would have a maximum goal of fuel economy, not power. It certainly wouldn't be as easy to maximize accuracy in this manner, but would be simple. Something like a progressive spring loaded diaphram, such as a waste gate actuator, would make a great mechanical regulator... ...



For the ideal combination of dual fuel, you'd have to rely on the electronics and exhaust monitoring to find the "right" combination. This goes into a great expense itself... ...



As for the use of propane falling by the wayside, a major contributor to that is the lack of readily available propane refilling stations, state mandated trained refilling "technicians", and the voalitility of something most people don't understand. I have no problem with it, but your DOT tanks have to be recertified to be refilled by a propane company, they have to refill them. At least here, they do. I can do it, myself, from my main stationary tank, but I catch fits from the local dealer. I just tell him I have to fill my tractor. He tells me he'll fill it for me, and I tell him I'll call him at 6am the next morn when I need fuel... ... . and then again at 2pm... ... and again at 10pm..... he gets the idea, but he likes the idea of me not being able to do it myself, as it's job security to him. Kinda like the dealer installing locking tube caps on the transmission tubes on the newer cars so you can't service it yourself..... I digress.



Water and methanol are simple, and won't kill you in your sleep as easily..... they can simply be filled from a 5 gallon can and left alone. As far as injecting methanol and water, I think you're over reaching a certain amount..... you're about to complicate the chemical formulae, I believe. Corrosive and changing at different temperatures. I'll have to research that, but propane and methanol are not a good mixture, IIRC. Especially to aluminum... ... I'll think this over, and I just happen to be having breakfast with an old racing friend who knows much more about the chemical combinations than I do, so I'll ask..... Oh, and on the diesel pooling... . I don't think that's right either, unless you're massively overfueling the engine... . it's sprayed under such force, it's atomized into such fine particles, it would only have time to pool in small quantities, if any, especially at highway speeds..... and at operating temps in the cylinder, I don't know where it would find a cool place to pool at... ... .



Please continue, I'm interested as well... ...
 
so talked to my cousin about this last night. i was starting to think that eric was on to something, and then my cousin dropped a bomb on the idea. he told me that back in feb. he talked to a guy at the world ag expo or farm show as we call it here in tulare ca. its the only year i have missed in recent times and i am now wishing i had gone. the guy my cousin talked to was from california clean air technologies, they have a b model cat set up exactly as we are talking about. they are seeing equal hp, better fuel mileage, lower maintence, and get this they are surpasing 2016 emmissions without a dpf (as i understand it, remember this is now third person your getting it from). this has sold me on the idea. i will post the link to their website for you to look through, not a lot of tech info but some good information none the less.



also yesterday after i posted i poked around and found a propane injection kit designed for efi gas cars and meant to run as a dual fuel. it is user programable and can probably work with boost pressure. it may not be exactly right but it seems to have a good start. i also have a friend of mine that thinks he might be able to reprogram the ecu if need be, that would allow more custom tailoring to our application. hhhuntitall, im with you on using electronics however i dont think that it can be done effectively enough for what we are talking about without them.



to edit my design concept, i was thinking instead of injecting the propane close to the intake valves, maybe injecting between the turbo and the intercooler would be good, the cooling affect of the propane would make the air denser, that would make for less displacement of the air by the propane.



again eric, i think your on to something here that just might work. i'm behind you now.



CCAT Dual Fuel Retrofit System

this is the ca clean air tech site.



Fuel Injected Propane Conversion Kits

this i think would make a good start for what we are trying to do here.
 
You said "Cat" and "3406" in the same sentence, following each other..... you have my full attention.



Your links are very interesting... ... ... I'll be back to follow along.....



Thought regarding the second propane system: If they're already making biodiesel, how hard would it be to interest them in a dual fuel (propane) system for diesels?
 
Last edited:
You said "Cat" and "3406" in the same sentence, following each other..... you have my full attention.



Your links are very interesting... ... ... I'll be back to follow along.....



Thought regarding the second propane system: If they're already making biodiesel, how hard would it be to interest them in a dual fuel (propane) system for diesels?



hhh, you and i are thinking along the same lines, you stated my thought almost exactly. in fact both of those links the companies work with both biodiesel and propane. i think one could get them started on something like this very easily.



steering away from dual fuel and bio for a moment, i came across another company a while back that has a different type of fuel additive that i have thought about trying. i probably will at some point i just want more information on it before i try.



Fuel Additives: Fuel Treatment, CO2 Reduction Technology - Viscon

this is the link to the company, again eric you might be able to shed some more light on this with your background. have you seen this product yet?



between this propane concept, and the fuel additive i just mentioned, i think some big leaps could be made in improving economy in a diesel pickup. not to mention some things i have been doing myself that i notice a significant difference from. if my experiments compliment these theories we have going. then it could be cost productive and eviromentally friendly. thats the kind of eco friendly i like.



back to the propane. im thinking precision controlled injection, similar to that of a mutli port system would deliver better results the a fumigation type setup.



ive got more thoughts on the subject, but i need to organize them a little better. been sort of scatter brained of late.
 
The problem with propane is the same as any other alternative fuel, it just doesn't perform as well. There is mostly no net gain once the extra cost of handling and storage is absorbed plus the fact it is just not as effective at generating power, lacks the BTU's for the volume.



Where it works better is large displacement lower combustion ratio engines. I am afraid the 5. 9 and its compression ratio is just not the platform needed to utilize LPG. Burns extremly clean but lacks the efficacy of good old dino fuel.
 
Why do you think the multiport would perform better than the fumigation type? I'd have thought the fumigation type would have better air mixing, resulting in a better burn... ... . or are you intending on injecting it in the intake at each runner?
 
Ia m selling a system if anyone is interested, large 40 gallon Horizontal tank in bed. Just need the room, tank is half full still!

Rick
 
I had a really good friend a few years back that had an LPG system on his 1st gen. It worked decent for power, but he never cared about mileage so I never got to play with it in that regard. We eventually yanked it off in favor of water injection also.

It seems that LPG is far more popular in the 7. 3 ford and 6. 5 gm world. I am not sure why, but it sure has seemed that way to me.

All this reading is taking me back to my Engineering days. I am not sure whether it excites me or brings back bad memories!! Haha.
 
I don't know jack about any of this. But I do like reading it!



We service scwhan food trucks at our shop. They are all LP or diesel. We had to certify on LP trucks and I learned quite a bit. They use and electric fuel pump in the the tank and automotive style injectors to inject fluid, not vapor of traditional systems. The trucks actually have decent power compared to other converted LP vehicles.



The water meth systems interest me way more than the LP and it's volitility.

And now back to regular programming... .....
 
Ideally, to me, the system would be more mechanical than electronic. I know you guys like the electronics, but I would like to see a system that didn't engage until 5psi boost, with a variable actuator that opened with boost... ... . the parameters are simple... . it would have a maximum goal of fuel economy, not power.

I think that's what I'm going to have. The link I posted earlier to the Ebay kit includes a Woodward vaporizer/regulator. It's a negative pressure regulator, such that flow through the vaporizer is linear with vacuum on the down stream side. With the sparge tube placed pre-turbo, the system is pretty much self regulating as you described. The best "simple" indicator of the fueling rate of the engine (combination of engine rpm, temperature, and load) is boost... which means that more vacuum is being pulled on the vaporizer. Thus, the end result, is the rate of propane being introduced to the engine should be proportional to the amount of diesel being injected.

This kit offers two adjustments. The kit uses a high quality honeywell pressure switch installed in the charge air cooler piping. This sets the boost pressure at which the propane starts being injected. There is also a conical adjustment screw on the sparge tube that allows you to set the maximum amount of propane flow. Thus, the only "electronic" part of the package, is a simple on-off switch mounted in the cab. It is recommended that the propane injection not be turned on until the engine is warmed up.

The Woodward vaporizer has engine coolant flowing through it; as such, the temperature (and corresponding volumetric flowrate) of the propane should be somewhat linear with respect to negative pressure in the intake tube.

a major contributor to that is the lack of readily available propane refilling stations, state mandated trained refilling "technicians", and the voalitility of something most people don't understand. I have no problem with it, but your DOT tanks have to be recertified to be refilled by a propane company, they have to refill them.

I suppose. Although the number of propane stations are increasing. The past few years, DOE has allotted significant subsidies for installation of new filling stations. The number of "alternative fuels" stations should only increase in coming years. Another benefit, is 88% of propane in the U. S. comes directly from the U. S. Of the remaining 12%, more than half of that comes from either Canada or Mexico. I have a very friendly propane station less than 2 miles from my house.

Water and methanol are simple, and won't kill you in your sleep as easily..... they can simply be filled from a 5 gallon can and left alone. As far as injecting methanol and water, I think you're over reaching a certain amount

I've looked at water/methanol as well. For cooling alone, it looks like a ~12% mix of methyl alcohol in water offers better latent heat of vaporization than either water or methanol alone. From what I've found, water injection and propane don't accomplish the same thing. The MPG benefit of water injection doesn't come from burning more fuel; rather, from what I understand, it offers lower pumping loss, denser intake charge, better ring sealing, and possibly some net work from expansion of the superheated water vapor. The "methanol" part of water/meth injection only comes into play as an occasional power adder. To run a percentage of methanol greater than 12% to gain benefits as a "fuel", is not cost effetive in my opinion, if your goal is efficiency. Water injection works best if it can be progressively controlled, and can be used up to 50% flowrate of diesel for best economy. However, at most, you're gaining a mile or two per gallon under optimum conditions. I suppose you could run a methanol mixture high enough to add some fuel, but it is much less forgiving than propane in significant quantities. It would take a complex control system, fancy engine tuning (which 1st gens aren't capable of), and consisntant mixtures of meth/water (which is anything but cheap). Furthermore, if you ran out of meth/water on a trip, the engine would NOT be close to optimized any more, and unless you had sensing and alternate control maps, could be harmful to the engine. With a propane fumigation system, if you run out of propane, you can simply flip the switch off, and continue driving on an optimized diesel platform.

Assuming in higher concentrations, propane begins to compression ignite enough to cause knocking/pre-ignition/high pressure rise rate, the addition of water injection (NOT water/meth) serves to increase ignition delay, and extend combustion duration... exactly what you need. There would definitely be a little work in balancing the water injection system with higher propane injection rates, but I think it'd be perfectly doable with simply the Cooling Mist in cab controller.

The problem with propane is the same as any other alternative fuel, it just doesn't perform as well. There is mostly no net gain once the extra cost of handling and storage is absorbed plus the fact it is just not as effective at generating power, lacks the BTU's for the volume.

I've read that some say that. One reason the price of propane is less than diesel, is to offset the btu/gallon energy content. If all you are doing is displacing diesel, then propane fumigation offers only a small advantage. However, if (as many believe) propane fumigation improves the quality of combustion, such that it also improves the combustion of the diesel, then the benefits increase. Additionally, some evidence points toward fumigation of propane shortening the burn duration... and optimizing the heat-release profile toward that of HCCI, such that better efficiency is gained by allowing the expansion of gas to move the piston with more "leverage" early in the power stroke. I understand there's gainsayers/naysayers on this aspect. However, things are falling into place so inexpensively for me that it's worth giving it a try.

--Eric
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top