Propane users? Anybody left?

[Mhannink]

The problem with propane is the same as any other alternative fuel, it just doesn't perform as well. There is mostly no net gain once the extra cost of handling and storage is absorbed plus the fact it is just not as effective at generating power, lacks the BTU's for the volume.



Where it works better is large displacement lower combustion ratio engines. I am afraid the 5. 9 and its compression ratio is just not the platform needed to utilize LPG. Burns extremly clean but lacks the efficacy of good old dino fuel.

in the right quantities i think it does help assist the diesel, thats the goal here. basically the only propane that should be added is enought to burn the extra 02 left after the diesel burns. that extra umph doese help. lpg by itself will not do as well.

Why do you think the multiport would perform better than the fumigation type? I'd have thought the fumigation type would have better air mixing, resulting in a better burn... ... . or are you intending on injecting it in the intake at each runner?

i am thinking of injecting it at each runner, the swirl inside the cylinder as it fills will mix the fuel just fine i think. the multi port injection would provide better control over the amount being injected. think of it as carb vs efi. efi tends to get better fuel mileage from better control of the air fuel ratio. i think the same would hold true for propane as well.



reading eric's last post though it is my personal opinion (whatever that means) that his set up is optimal for fumigation. i personaly am still leaning towards an efi like system. eric i do have one thought that might interest you. what about putting an o2 sensor in the exhaust, that would give you an idea how it needs to be tuned for optimum. the guage would probably be bottomed out most of the time, but as propane comes on it should work its way towards ideal, and that is all you are looking for.



on another note, i like what noyset is talking about with the liquid being injected, though for this set up it is probably not all that fesiable.

 

[ENafziger]

Fuel Additives: Fuel Treatment, CO2 Reduction Technology - Viscon
this is the link to the company, again eric you might be able to shed some more light on this with your background. have you seen this product yet?

No, I've not seen it personally. Let me ask a few others in the group.

For the first time since Alfred Diesel invented the compression ignition engine over 100 years ago a technology, Viscon fuel treatment has demonstrated to improve the combustion efficiency by modifying the physical, in contrast to chemical, properties of diesel fuel.

The above quote is a little disconcerting. I'm familiar with Rudolph Diesel. I have no idea who Alfred is? A quick search turned up nothing.

I've become very skeptical of internet sites trying to sell things without offering hard-line data and verified research material. They often quote "pieces" of things that sound good, and appear to draw a logical conclusion. However, this doesn't make up for evidence (or the lack thereof). I tried to follow the links to the "CARB" certification. I never saw any data at all? They iterated CARB procedures a few times, but never showed any data from the procedures pertaining to their product?

Granted, this site looks a little more valid than most, but I've come to view most things with caution. We've tested the miracle fuel magnets, turbo diapers, vortex generators, etc with no measurable result. Unfortunately (or fortunately), research instrumentation cannot replicate the Placebo effect like humans can. The reference to some guy named Alfred makes me skeptical. The lack of data makes me skeptical. I hope I'm wrong.

--Eric

 

[Nyoest]

You know I've been pondering on this thread all day. Is multiport injection that adventageous? Your dealing with pressurized gas (well really boiling point, but) I would think atomization would tend to take care of itself if just fumigated?

When I saw the schwans trucks I was dreaming up a way of rigging my truck but really need a pump IN the tank, bottle pressure is never constant enough to be reliable for liquid. That could be a minor issue.

This is a complete tangent, but do you guys have any experience with oxengenated fuels? Back in the motorcycle racing days it was a good way to add horsepower without retuning. Just had to run it all out as exposure to air turned it to jelly. Something else from racing, they had progressive nitrous controllers that could be programmed to ramp X amount of nitrous at rpm or boost, might be useful for a propane setup.

 

[HHhuntitall]

You know I've been pondering on this thread all day. Is multiport injection that adventageous? Your dealing with pressurized gas (well really boiling point, but) I would think atomization would tend to take care of itself if just fumigated?



When I saw the schwans trucks I was dreaming up a way of rigging my truck but really need a pump IN the tank, bottle pressure is never constant enough to be reliable for liquid. That could be a minor issue.



This is a complete tangent, but do you guys have any experience with oxengenated fuels? Back in the motorcycle racing days it was a good way to add horsepower without retuning. Just had to run it all out as exposure to air turned it to jelly. Something else from racing, they had progressive nitrous controllers that could be programmed to ramp X amount of nitrous at rpm or boost, might be useful for a propane setup.

Hey, you might be on to something there..... the delivery system for the nitrous rail... ... you don't have to use that rail, just the delivery system.....

 

[ENafziger]

You know I've been pondering on this thread all day. Is multiport injection that adventageous?

No, I don't think it is. The benefit in the gasoline world of PFI/DI injection over carbureted, is obviously bettering metering, delivery, atomization, etc for precise control. With a dual-fuel system, the engine fueling rate is already managed well with the diesel, and propane is simply being used as the second fuel. I don't think linearity of the delivery of propane vs diesel via mechanical-vaporizer methods would deviate enough from optimal that a post-turbo injected solution would offer any realizeable benefit.

Furthermore, injecting pre-turbo is going to offer the most consistent mixture by far. A diesel engine is not most efficient operating at stoichiometric conditions. I don't know of any manufacturer that tries to achieve this. In fact, from what I've seen and experienced myself, less than 8% O2 in the exhaust leads to poor efficiency... and usually 11 - 16% is much better. It is simply unrealistic, even in a modern engine, to provide such a perfect, homogeneous, burn-controlled environment such that every molecule of fuel will run into it's molecule of O2 and will burn completely and efficiently, and there will be no excess oxygen or fuel.

--Eric

 

[HHhuntitall]

The burn stroke on the diesel is where I see a problem, though..... of course, when we're chasing fuel effeciency, it's not as important... ... the problem I refer to is the BTU content and burn rate... ... but in a supporting role(dual fuel), how much, volume-wise, are you planning on injecting? And what is the calculated, ideal ratio/percentage? Or is that also part of the experiment? Are there any tests involving propane additive for power? Something to base cf/m or lb/hr injection on?



As a side note, has anyone thought to call the guys at BullyDog and ask about their use of it? They build a system, do they have any data on it? Power, effeciency, detriments? Would they help build a system? It's getting winter time in Idaho... ... . lots of barn time for those guys.....

 

[Mhannink]

eric you are right, i dont trust internet much either, and i dont know alfred diesel (maybe it was his nick name). that is why i mentioned it to you, i dont know enough about chemistry to know if what they are doing sounds right or not. i am curious though if it really is what they claim.



as for injection vs. fumigation i really dont know if which is better. i think eric's setup is the best for fumigation. is injected better? maybe, maybe not. if a had a couple of grand lying around then i would be tempted to try it, just for a comparison between the two. the system i looked at injects gas into the air stream, the liquid one, as cool as it is, is probably not practical for this application.



a fuel rail like that of a nitrious set up would be slick i think, provided you had all the controls to meter the amount correctly. that is one big advantage eric has over my idea, and that is the simplicity. i know from experience that simple often works best.

 

[ENafziger]

i dont trust internet much either, and i dont know alfred diesel (maybe it was his nick name). that is why i mentioned it to you, i dont know enough about chemistry to know if what they are doing sounds right or not. i am curious though if it really is what they claim.

I've not made up my mind on it yet... I have some questions in to some contacts.

This disclaimer is a little troubling from Viscon:

'Centrifugal, or high speed mechanical, pumps are not recommended as they may shear the long molecules of the active ingredient, and reduce the effects of the additive. '

Would a VE (vane pump) be considered high-speed?

 

[ENafziger]

Here's an explanation of the Woodward NJ series LPG vaporizers:

Regulators / Vaporizers offer improved vaporization. Liquid propane enters the regulator and then is vaporized using heat from the engine coolant. This is accomplished by spraying fuel against the regulator's thin heated walls. The diaphragm reacts to the fuel expansion due to vaporization, thus filling the expansion chamber and closing the high pressure valve. When engine demand draws fuel from the low-pressure side, the high-pressure valve opens, letting liquid fuel into the high pressure chamber, continuing the vaporization process.

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--Eric
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[Mhannink]

i am curious about the viscon, seems interesting. overlooking the discrepencies you mentioned, it sounds too good to be true. that right off always makes me leary.



as for the requlator and propane. i think your setup is best for fumigation, and it is easily possible it is best overall. personally i can be a bit of a control freak and thats why i like the efi setup. i am really curious how your setup is going to perform. might just be worth while to do. there is no question the science behind it supports the theory. once you get the system installed and tuned it will be interesting to crunch the number out and see what they are.



in febuary i will be going to the farm show and the company i mentioned that is already working on this is supposed to be there, i intend to talk to them more and see what information i can get. that should be a big help to us.

 

[ENafziger]

i am curious about the viscon, seems interesting. overlooking the discrepencies you mentioned, it sounds too good to be true. that right off always makes me leary.

I agree. It's interesting that they speak nothing of efficiency improvements, or bsfc numbers, etc. It's all marketed around emissions. Furthermore, if you read the technical info regarding the CARB certification, the ONLY certify it for old diesels (~1985 vintage but I forget), and ONLY for off-highway and off-road use. Somehow, Viscon forgot to put that on the front page info? It also behooves me about 3 billion gallons treated... with that fuel quantity treated, why isn't there more information on it? Originally, it was designed to be a friction reducer to treat the walls of pipeline... I wonder if that's what they're claiming as *treated* fuel.

Furthermore, their best results are on the oldest of diesels, with worn out, slobbering injector fuel systems with practically no optimization or control.

Anyway, I'm after efficiency, not necessarily improving emissions.

 

[Mhannink]

im looking for efficiency too, and it looks interesting in theory. as for pushing the emmissions they are based here in cali and thats a big deal around here, from a marketing stand point i would be pushing that too if i thought it would work.

 

[WStrong]

I bought one of those propane kits from e-bay and use it on a 09 6. 7 cummins in a Freightliner propane bobtail. It has the 300 hp. version and it was pretty slow on the hills. With the propane flowing the milage went from 5 mpg to 7. 5 and gained a gear on the hills. Sure makes it fly up the icy driveways where momentem is key. It also goes through the regenneration mode half as much.

 

[HHhuntitall]

I bought one of those propane kits from e-bay and use it on a 09 6. 7 cummins in a Freightliner propane bobtail. It has the 300 hp. version and it was pretty slow on the hills. With the propane flowing the milage went from 5 mpg to 7. 5 and gained a gear on the hills. Sure makes it fly up the icy driveways where momentem is key. It also goes through the regenneration mode half as much.

Hmmm, got a link? I'd like to look at that. Does it add propane at all times?

 

[Mhannink]

I bought one of those propane kits from e-bay and use it on a 09 6. 7 cummins in a Freightliner propane bobtail. It has the 300 hp. version and it was pretty slow on the hills. With the propane flowing the milage went from 5 mpg to 7. 5 and gained a gear on the hills. Sure makes it fly up the icy driveways where momentem is key. It also goes through the regenneration mode half as much.

that is interesting information. i would like to hear/read more on it. seems to support our theory too which is a plus.

 

[WStrong]

Sorry I haven't gotten back for the answer, it's been pretty cold here and been out half the nights running around for run outs. The propane starts flowing at 8 pounds of boost so it mainly is for accelerating and going up the hills. The truck idles more than 50 percent of the time while I'm pumping so it is off then. The best thing about the injection is when the check engine light comes on and it derates the propane brings it back up to stock power so I can keep going. I can't have any down time with it because you never know when someone is going to run out. I'm using about 8 gallons of propane to about 60 gallons of diesel. It sure makes the truck a lot more fun to drive.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Hmmm, very interesting. Any idea who makes the kit?

 

[ENafziger]

Well, I got the 45 gallon tank mounted in the bed, and made a headache guard for it. I have the sparge tube installed as well. Yesterday, I made a bracket to mount the vaporizer, and got it bolted to the truck and plumbed to the sparge tube. I also installed the pressure switch in the charge air cooler piping as well.

Items left to do: get a 13' LPG hose made, get (2) 5/8" hose barb tee's, get the propane tank filled, and do the electrical wiring.

Getting close...

--Eric

 

[Mhannink]

Looking good, can't wait to see how it runs.

 

[monkeyman]

Looking good, can't wait to see how it runs.

selling mine with large Horozontal tank for bed (half full) MSD unit

PM if interested

Rick