Propane Users

[whistleman]

Installed the ATS 2000 Propane system. Works great, easy to install. Tank mounted in the bed. Kept mileage since new. 26 MPG from New Waverly to Dallas on I-45, 72 mph, cruise control and A/C on. 25. 5 from Dallas to Houston same conditions. Highly recommend the ATS system. Oo.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

how much propane did you use on that trip??



Have you calculated cost per mile?



just curious. I want to know if you spend the $ you saved on diesel on propane.



Thanks,

Mark

 

[whistleman]

Propane

Mark, No doubt about it, you are right, I probably do spend the money saved on diesel for the propane. I have a 40 gallon tank, at about $1. 20 a gallon, I went about 4000 miles on the first tank, have my hobbs to activate at 5 lbs. The kick you get though is well worth it. Have not had it dyno'd but the Company says that the kit is worth about 40-50 HP and 125-150 ft. lbs. Just ordered the Quick Link II from Cummins to use with the Palm VIIx to monitor the engine and torque is one of the readings. Will post the results when installed. Thanks

 

[fj40charles]

Whistleman,



You might want to come out the DFW dyno days on March 16th.

We had a good turnout last time and I'm sure this one will be good too. I'm almost positive it will be much warmer.



See this thread. .

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33329



Charles

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Thats not too bad. .



if you get #2 for $1. 00/gal and get 18mpg then $. 055/mi



25mpg @ $1/gal = $. 04/mi + (100Pmpg@$1. 20=$. 012/mi) for a total of $. 052/mi



Basically you gained the equvalent of 1mpg of diesel. The good news is that emissions are down-- read less soot -- and propane powered engines are the only engines w/better longevity than diesels. It'll be interesting to see what your oil analysis looks like.



Let me know if you get it tested.



Thanks,

Mark

 

[whistleman]

Propane

Charles,

Thanks for the info. Am interested. Where's the location and what time will it start? I live next to D/FW Airport. Oops. Viewed the thread and answered my question. Thanks, Bobby

 

[fj40charles]

Whistleman,



Here is the info from Don M. From DFW you can take hwy 121 (business) east toward the Colony. Take a right on Holford Prairie Road off of hwy 121 (Business). This is the last light before you get to hwy 121 (non Business). I hope this makes sense.



Charles



==========================================

You guys remember the Ford crowd that came out with us last time? Well, they have decided to have another dyno event and wanted us to all come out and play again. If anyone is interesting in coming out... Let me know. They have 5 guys commited so far.



Its on March the 16th at 9 AM in Lewisville at the same place below



Speedworks

414 Holfords Prairie Rd.

Lewisville Texas

972-395-9844



This time lets bring some food to grill and more beer. It was a tad cool last time as far as temps go, but it should be a bit warmer in March.



Don~

 

[whistleman]

Mark,

Have not had the oil tested yet. Here is my oil change schedule. Change the regular filter every 5000, change the oil and bypass every 10000 along w/the air filter I know this is overkill, that's just the way I do some things. Know Amsoil has a test kit, but not of any others. Not sure if one company will be better than an other. The main reasons for the propane is hopefully, engine longevity, as I do not abuse it, and for the extra power and mileage. Plus I can tell the wife it will save money in the llllloooonnngggg run. Total for the kit was $996. 00 for the converter and a friend gave me a propane tank that I traded it for one that fit. Thanks for the numbers. Bobby

 

[Turbo Thom]

Does anybody have a plumbing diagram for the propane? Also will a nitrious valve work for the injection?



Thanks ... ... ... ... Preston. .

 

[Cooker]

Mark,



I direct this question at you only becasue you brought up the topic, and I am curious as well.



Although, LP engines run longer than diesels, these engines are deisgned to run on LP, or some of them are (I assume the long running ones are not conversions and if so, they originally started out as gassers). I have heard the converted LP engines are hard on the valve train. Granted this is not too bad of a fix, so no real issues there.



I think LP is an excellent alternative fuel source. When I spent some time in Australia a few years ago many of the vehicles there have been converted to run on both gasoline and LP. It would be nice if we could see this more in the US. Pull into a gas station and get our choice of LP, gasoline, or diesel.



Doesn't LP lean out a diesel? If this is the case it would seem like the longevity would suffer.



Thanks,

Ryan - Always looking for an education.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

cooker,

My grandfather had a 8n ford tractor that ran on lp for over 20yrs w/o any failures. no valvetrain problems that I know of. He finally got old and the transmission had a leak so he got rid of it.



LP is similar to diesel in its lubricating properties but produces less HP than gasoline in a gasoline engine. The fuel has a lower HC content. LP works like a catalyst to Diesel fuel though, causing it to burn more completely and faster.



It is impossible to lean out a diesel because of the way it operates. Gasoline engies regulate air. . they have a butterfly valve that lets more or less air into the engine then the fuel is metered to match the air.



Diesels meter the fuel. They put the amount of fuel necessary to support a throttle setting. As long as they get enough air they don't care. This is why they are generally more efficient. It also means there is no such thing as a lean condition only a rich one. . when rich the fuel is still buring as it leaves the cylinder resulting in black smoke and high EGTs.



Gas engines have to maintain near 14:1 air:fuel ratio to keep from melting piston and valves. . over half of the fuel is used for cooling.



Hope this helps,

Mark

 

[JPS]

propane fuel

Used propane for some years in gas pickups. Have tanks and regulators,hoses and valves if anyone wants to try propane! 350 chev engine had 120k when it needed heads. Normal for chev. 350. heads cracked. Body was rusty so did not repair!!Not a wear ring in piston hole at 120k. Engine was clean when heads were removed!

 

[Cooker]

Thanks for the education. I was under the impression if LP was added to diesel, one would then cut back on the amount of fuel added to the engine, but this is not the case. I just wasn't thinking.



But...



If we are burning the fuel more efficiently, we would need less throttle to achieve the same power, and hence less fuel, and all of the fuel would be burning in the hole, therefore it would eliminate our rich condition. Then we are at less lubrication from the diesel fuel.



I was unaware that LP has the same lubricating properties of diesel. If this is the case, my entire point is void.



Do you have any technical links were I can read about adding LP to a diesel.



Thanks for all the info,

Ryan

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

propane parts

JPS,

I sent an email about some of those propane parts. Gimme a yell and we'll talk.



Thanks,

Mark



918 521 8666

 

[csutton7]

JPS--do you have a tank that will mount where the spare tire fits--I'm looking for one---chris

 

[JohnE]

This could get lengthy and I may ramble...



Running LP or gasoline is almost the same. The basic engine doesn't care which fuel you use so long as it comes in a stoichiometric package. CR, valve timing, spark timing are all compatible. The fuel deliver is either by a gas mixer or carburetor or both. A phenomena called boundary layer is what protects the head, cylinder walls, and piston crown to combustion. If you run too lean or rich, this protective layer is disturbed. All conventional spark ignition engines have a coolant jacket in the intake manifold to preheat air fuel mixture. The cooling effect of vaporizing fuel is only an advantage in high hp or high CR engines.



On a diesel engine, you always run leaner than stoichiometric. The boundary layer is mostly undisturbed by running lean over even rich (soot). Pre-ignition is a big problem in a diesel. Get it warmed a bit before you put it to full load. If the fuel goes BANG so does your engine.



LP must be added in a low and controlled amount to a compression ignition engine. If you add too much LP in the air charge, pre-ignition will result. The ignition process must start with the injected diesel.



Cat and Deutz have dual fueled engines that run on both natural gas and diesel fuel. They start and warm on diesel and then slowly add gas until running around 20% diesel and 80% gas. These are conventional compression ignition engines with diesel injection and a gas , mixer (carburetor).



Cummins is currently working on their version. The Cummins will be unique as it will share the same injector for both fuels.



According to the emissions propaganda, we should all be running LP injection and using only 80/20 biodiesel.



I warned you this would get long and ramble and I'm not done.



Natural Gas and LP powered engines require a special lubricating oil that is labeled "CNG" oil. It must be very low in ash and phosphorous. Only a handful of companies produce CNG rated oil. I'm wondering if those running a high phosphorous oil and LP injection will be causing internal problems.



Did that last statement open a can of worms?



-John

 

[BigCarl64]

John,



Are you saying that the oil most of us use (ie Delo 400, etc. ) in our Cummins is high phosphorous oil?

I have been using LP injection and I am now wondering exactly if it makes sense.

 

[RustyJC]

The open chamber dual-fuel engines our company has built operate at about 4% pilot fuel (diesel) and 96% natural gas. The diesel fuel is only used as an ignition source (like a spark plug) for the natural gas.



With pre-combustion chambers, we can get down to 1-1. 5% pilot fuel with significantly improved emissions.



When operating in dual-fuel mode, however, these engines regulate intake air with air/fuel ratio controls just like a spark-fired engine. Otherwise, detonation and misfire can occur.



Whistleman, please be aware that some of the ETH owners have reported head gasket failures on propane. This is speculation only on my part, but the higher compression ratio of the ETH will result in higher cylinder temperatures before diesel injection starts, resulting in a greater tendency for the propane/air mixture to auto-ignite, assuming one is running "heavy" enough propane injection to produce a combustible fuel/air mixture. Also, the ETH will have higher peak firing pressures with propane than the ETC, so this doesn't help the head gasket situation.



The sulfated ash & phosphorus content of lubricating oil for gaseous-fueled engines is critical because ash deposits in the combustion chamber can act as a glow plug and cause preignition. Natural gas engine oils for 2-cycle engines typically have sulfated ash levels of below 0. 1% - 4-cycle engines may require more ash to prevent valve/seat recession. Phosphorus, typically in the form of zinc dithiophosphate, an anti-scuff/anti-wear additive, is more of a problem with spark-ignited gaseous fueled engines as it tends to build deposits that foul spark plugs.



Rusty

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Rusty. . I think the head gasket failures are from hi power propane add ons. . I think that the small effieciency shot should be safe. I can't back it up though.

 

[RustyJC]

Originally posted by Mark_Kendrick

Rusty. . I think the head gasket failures are from hi power propane add ons. . I think that the small effieciency shot should be safe.

Mark,



I suspect you're right. As I said, my concerns regarding auto-ignition would only come into play when the propane being added was "heavy" enough to produce a combustible mixture - this would normally be in a performance application. Once we have a combustible mixture in the cylinder before the start of injection, however, all the rules change - we almost have to start thinking of the engine in "spark gas" terms. The higher peak firing pressures can, IMHO, still expose any weak links in the ETH - they're enough to keep me away from propane in my engine.



Rusty