Pro's & Cons of Deleting

[DPrew]

Doing a DPF delete is tempting but there are a lot of factors to consider. It seems like waiting until you hit 36K is almost a given so you won't wipe out your bumper to bumper warranty. Yes, your risking having engine issues for the next 64K that would have been covered but do the benefits out weight the potential draw backs?



Based on 100K and $3 (conservative)Diesel a delete could save me about $4326 minus the cost of the delete kit. At 200K and higher fuel prices the savings minus the kit could easily be $8000.



I could also do an Amsoil Bypass filter and synthetic oil to stretch my oil changes to 10-15K. This would save more money and protect my engine better. A bypass with computer mandated oil changes that may never exceed 5K just doesn't make sense. The oil and filters are just too expensive.



A Dynatrac and FASS at 100K may be a given as well. At 100K I would not hesitate to dump the DPF. I would definitely put all the factory crap in storage for safe keeping.



I'm sure taking the cat off my 02' was probably no more illegal then taking off the DPF. The main difference being that Dodge didn't care about the cat.



I'd really like to hear from the delete guys and any issues they had to foot the bill for because of the voided warranty. Has anyone actually had any inspection issues because of the delete? I'm in Texas (thank God not CA) and already know a person who would probably turn a blind eye at inspection time for a few greenbacks or a case of beer. And that's if the regular inspection even checked for emissions equipment.

 

[jgillott]

I've seen quite a few 6. 7's run very well post delete. Add to that a modest increase in MPG and the loss of the emissions related equipment malfunctions, and it seems like a win-win for you. Personally however, I wouldn't base that decision on how much money you think that you could save doing that delete. There are too many factors that could come in to play over the course of ownership that could negate that potential savings. Add to that the potential bother of having to put that truck back to stock when/if emissions testing comes along, makes it a much more difficult decision.



In my case, when I end up with a 6. 7L truck, I am probably going to approach ownership with a much different attitude than I have had with any of my other trucks. I think it will be simply a warranty period truck for me. Buy it, work the devil out of it, and sell it when the factory warranty is gone. Going all the way back to my '92 which was my first CTD, I added excessories and mods to every one that made them quite fun toys along with functional work vehicles. Maybe I'm just getting old, but I don't look at these new ones in the same way. I believe that the 6. 7's have a ton of potential, but it's just a lot more hassle at this point than I am willing to go through.



By the way... ... you sure that '02 of yours had a Cat?

 

[Jim W]

Hi, I did my deletes back in Aug 09. and I have not look back since. My cost for the deletes was a little over $1400. This included the Smarty S67, a 5" TBE from MBRP and two machine blocks for deleting the ERG. I left the cooler on as being there is some discussion on another forum that the cooler may act as an external Waste Gate to protect the HG. I do not know if this is true or not but my EGR cooler is still on.

I do get a over head message every 2500 to 3000 miles that states: Catalyst full see dealer now. I believe that there is a timer/mileage counter that is looking for Regen to occur, if none has occur then the warning messages is displayed. I clear this with a code reader but the Smarty will clear this also. This has been my only issue.

I am running SW3 with most of my settings at level 2. I have picked up 3 MPG since I have done the deletes. I am changing my oil every 5K with a new filter at that time. My oil changes cost less then $50, each since I do them myself. I buy the oil on sale and the filter from Geno's that is why it is so cheap. So for me doing a 5K oil change is no issue.

I am concern with fuel dilution that has been reported on the 6. 7L but the Smarty may have eliminated this problem. I will know more after my oil analysis is done on the next oil change. I may go then to 7. 5K.

Good Luck, PM me if you need any more information.

Jim

 

[jelag]

Con - some where along the line the states will start to enforce the emission platforms that these trucks have to meet... when that happens you'll either have to put the stuff back on to pass... or face the issues...

Here, we're starting to see them look at the trucks and do more than a snap test for smoke, and in OR our 5500 doesn't have to test because its over 10,000 GVW but trucks under that have to test... .

Its going to be a state by state issue and I'm sure federal road share dollars will come into the picture as well. . like it has on cars. .

 

[MullenaxM]

The Federal Government is now in the process of forcing The State of Texas to start implementing more stringent Emission laws. It's to the point now where the Fed's are threatening to take away our right of self compliance.



But with that said,(I'm really not trying to rain on your parade),It has been proven that by deleting all the emissions components and installing a "performance program" or "Box" it is possible to increase you fuel mileage depending on how you use it. And if you know someone that is willing to break the law and put a State Inspection sticker on your truck ...



Hey, It's your truck.



Mike

 

[flyby night]

Sorry to get of topic here, but I was at the dealer yesterday and the service writer was telling me about the 6. 7's and manual regen. He was telling me that when they do a manual regen, they have to remove the spare tire. They have had several come in that had a bad smell. Do you guys really have to deal with removing the spare tire? The delete would be more than worth it for me, if I had to deal with all that nonsense. The emissions they are saving from the tailpipe are counteracted by the emissions they create from catching stuff on fire! I have heard of fire trucks catching the asphalt on fire because they had a turn down exhaust tip. The idiots that create these regulations should all be out of a job, and we should be focusing more on efficiency rather than actual tailpipe emissions.

 

[RDHamill]

I have just got think that someone is pulling you leg, I have had 2 6. 7Ls, it will regen just fine with spare in place, and not harm it at all. it will make the paint I put on the tailpipe go away much faster than my 5. 9L did.
They seem to have the 6. 7L troubles figured out. I am still seeing quite a number of turbos hit the shop floor, not so many DPFs
good luck

 

[MullenaxM]

When The technician performs a Stationary Regeneration of the Exhaust Aftertreatment system the spare tire has to be lowered to the ground. This is necessary because the vehicle is stationary (parked,not moving) and there is no air flow (unless the wind is blowing) under the vehicle to help dissipate the high temperature from the exhaust during the regeneration process. The Stationary Regeneration procedure is a process used by the technician to clean the DPF if the Soot Load of the DPF is beyond a set threshold. It is a process that is enabled using the WiTECH or StarMobile scan tools. This not a procedure that a vehicle owner will experience while driving, Even if the vehicle was in a regeneration event and the vehicle was to become stationary (stopped,not moving) the ECM would, under certain parameters, suspend the regeneration event until the vehicle is moving again and all the ECM data parameters met the threshold and then the regeneration event would continue until it was completed.



Mike

 

[Shelby Griggs]

When The technician performs a Stationary Regeneration of the Exhaust Aftertreatment system the spare tire has to be lowered to the ground. This is necessary because the vehicle is stationary (parked,not moving) and there is no air flow (unless the wind is blowing) under the vehicle to help dissipate the high temperature from the exhaust during the regeneration process. The Stationary Regeneration procedure is a process used by the technician to clean the DPF if the Soot Load of the DPF is beyond a set threshold. It is a process that is enabled using the WiTECH or StarMobile scan tools. This not a procedure that a vehicle owner will experience while driving, Even if the vehicle was in a regeneration event and the vehicle was to become stationary (stopped,not moving) the ECM would, under certain parameters, suspend the regeneration event until the vehicle is moving again and all the ECM data parameters met the threshold and then the regeneration event would continue until it was completed.



Mike

Mike, I know early on there was concern by those of those that work off road, i. e. : ranchers, utility companies and surveyors like myself, that the re-gen events could easily set a wildfire. Has there been any programming parameters to temporarily halt re-gen events under say a certain speed, or while stopped, or in 4 low, etc. , in other words is there intelligence built in to hopefully prevent a re-gen from occurring in slow speed off road situations?



These concerns are one reason I am still driving the 2001! A temporary driver off switch for re-gens would of course be the best way to make sure re-gen events DO NOT occur at a bad time.



SHG

 

[TLane]

Here's a con of deleting: I really like how clean my travel trailer stays with a DPF in place. Of course, nothing I've had has been as filthy as the old 6. 2L Chevy I had years ago!

 

[PFranzese]

Has anyone heard of blown head gaskets from removing the emissions, more specifically the EGR?

I heard of a specific truck, 07. 5 6. 7 with emisions deleted (DPF and EGR). During a trip towing two Jeeps on a goose neck trailer the head gasket went and the blame was placed on the lack of EGR and that the EGR was used as a sort of waste gate for the turbo. Does this sound plausible?

 

[MullenaxM]

Mike, I know early on there was concern by those of those that work off road, i. e. : ranchers, utility companies and surveyors like myself, that the re-gen events could easily set a wildfire. Has there been any programming parameters to temporarily halt re-gen events under say a certain speed, or while stopped, or in 4 low, etc. , in other words is there intelligence built in to hopefully prevent a re-gen from occurring in slow speed off road situations?



These concerns are one reason I am still driving the 2001! A temporary driver off switch for re-gens would of course be the best way to make sure re-gen events DO NOT occur at a bad time.



SHG

Good Question, The concern is that high exhaust temperatures caused by a Regeneration Event and if the vehicle is driven or parked over a combustible material, ie: grass,brush,paper etc... , it might ignite the combustible material and start a fire. It can happen, But in all fairness, any vehicle on the road today can cause the same thing to happen. Most All vehicles on the road today have a Catalatic Converter, Trucks, Cars, If they are on the highway they have a Catalatic Converter and if parked over some combustible material,they could start a fire.





The ECM on the Dodge truck will not start a regeneration event unless the vehicle is moving and the vehicle speed is above 20 mph. Even in tall dry grass at 20mph at full regeneration temperature the vehicle will be moving too fast to ignite the grass. If you were to stop in tall enough grass while the exhaust temperature is high then it could start a fire. But again any vehicle built today with a catalatic converter can do the same thing.



On a personal note, I live and work in a rural area, lots of hay fields and lots of oil and gas wells. I have yet to see or hear of a incident where a Dodge pick-up with a 6. 7 engine starting or causing a fire.



Mike

 

[jelag]

I have a good grasp of gas engines so let me share... .

On a gas engine the EGR allows a fixed amount of exhaust gas to enter the combustion chamber and this smaller charge, at highway speeds means a smaller explosion... think of it this way... without the EGR there is 100% in the combustion chamber and with the EGR there is say a controlled amount of 80% air and fuel... this lower amount, (remember the ratio is still the same) means a smaller explosion and can be thought of as a mileage improver as it works when the car is running down the highway. . as it goes up a hill and more power is needed the EGR is turned off... . the lower explosion means lower temperatures... . and lower NOX emission... when we used to be able to add more fuel, we wouldn't worry about temperature as the excess gasoline(un burnt) would quench the chamber and lower the temperature...

On our trucks, I can only assume that we're putting in exhaust instead of air from the intake system thus a smaller explosion in the combustion chamber and thus lower temperatures... after all its the lower temperatures there after for lower NOX.....

Also remember that what the engineer is looking for is an inert gas... something that won't support combustion... this process could be done with Nitrogen as an example if the truck carried a tank... . but exhaust won't support combustion so its used... .

I also assume that with the lower amount of burnable air, the ECM reduces the fuel charge to keep from wasting fuel... but I don't know this a fact... . I wonder if Sag2 knows...

Anyway... I can't see where the truck mentioned by PFranzese can happen unless there was some sort tuner used to allow for more fuel and more air, thus a large explosion and over pressure, thus a head gasket issue... I've not read, nor seen anything written where the EGR was used to limit the Turbo...

I'd also like to add that we've seen several posts with a different set of rules... in that each state has been tasked by the feds to reduce emissions by enforcing the laws about the equipment working. . and each state has done that in different ways... Here in WA and OR you're required to go to a STATE facility for testing so you can't buy your sticker from an independent repair shop as is available in some states... .

Just my thoughts. .

 

[KEpperly]

The truck PFranzese is talking about has a smarty, egr delete, and dpf delete.

 

[Jim W]

The truck PFranzese is talking about has a smarty, egr delete, and dpf delete.

It would be great to know at what level in the software of the Smarty this person is using. Such as level 5,7 or 9 and/or 4,6 or 8 with a timing device such as a MP8.

On the Smarty web site and in their literature they state what level is safe to run with a stock engine and trans. Anything above SW level 3 will result in engine damage and transmission damage at some future time. The only way to prevent this is to modify the trans and engine, which in its self is another level of issues and cost.

 

[Shelby Griggs]

The ECM on the Dodge truck will not start a regeneration event unless the vehicle is moving and the vehicle speed is above 20 mph. Even in tall dry grass at 20mph at full regeneration temperature the vehicle will be moving too fast to ignite the grass.



Mike

Mike, Thanks for your knowledgeable input to this board.



This is good to know, it seems the only concern then would be stopping over combustibles and that can be watched for. I agree that at 20+ MPH, the contact time is probably too short to start a fire, even during re-gen.



Maybe NO vehicles sold in 2010 are exempt from a hot exhaust, but on ALL Cummins powered pickups sold PRE 2007, one of the big advantages over say the gas powered counterpart was the low exhaust temperatures, usually only 300°-400° under the off road conditions we are talking about.



I needed to enter a ranch a few years back (pre Cummins powered Dodge) in the course of my work and the owner was extremely paranoid about setting a wild fire. It seems another contractor had caused a wild fire nearby a few years previous from the catalytic converter on a gas powered vehicle. That fire I am told spread to over 20,000 acres before it was done, probably put a dent in their insurance limits!



I am always careful, even with the 2001 Dodge where I park, and if any doubt at all I check under the vehicle as I exit the cab, just habit.



SHG

 

[MullenaxM]

Mike, Thanks for your knowledgeable input to this board.







Maybe NO vehicles sold in 2010 are exempt from a hot exhaust, but on ALL Cummins powered pickups sold PRE 2007, one of the big advantages over say the gas powered counterpart was the low exhaust temperatures, usually only 300°-400° under the off road conditions we are talking about.







SHG

2003 Dodge pick-ups with the Cummins Diesel 5. 9 liter with Calif. emissions came with a catalitic converter, In 2004. 5 50 state emissions required a catalitic converter.



Mike

 

[Shelby Griggs]

Mike, thanks for setting the record straight!



SHG