Pump timing and TDC

[paccool]

Well, now I know what some of you guys have been talking about when discussing top dead center and pump timing.

Had the pump rebuilt a couple of months ago and had a local speed shop do the installation. When I picked up the truck, they couldn't tell me where the pump was timed at. They set the pump back in at the mark and then put the truck on the Dyno and tweaked the pump.

Just got back from a business trip to eastern Oregon and Washinton and arranged to have Wentland Diesel take a look at the set up and get it right. (this is where Power Wagon used to work)They checked the pump timing and found it to be 0. 9 MM and then found the top dead center pin to be off about 2. 5 degrees.

Lorin at Wentland recommended the timing be set at 1. 7 and showed me specs on the motor that went from 1. 25 for the truck applications like ours all the way up to 2. 05 for the higher power engines for the graders and such. I told them to set it where he felt it would be best and they put it at the 1. 7 MM. They also set TDC and repositioned the pin. Had to turn the star wheel back a couple of turns to reduce smoke.

WOW! This thing runs a lot better. Pulls the 6,000 lb trailer a lot better now, only saw 900 degrees on the Pyro. Could pull most all the hills in drive at 60 MPH(trying to save the transmission some grief) and had to back out of the throttle as it always picked up speed. Had an engine overheat problem (not turbo temp)before they worked on it and at half throttle or so, have not had the problem since.

Wentland did a great job for me and I would recommend them to anyone. Great bunch of people, seem to know what they are doing.

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Stan
93 2WD extended cab, Banks Power Pack, K&N air filter, PW Injectors,rebuilt and tweaked pump, auto w/3. 54 rear with limited slip, US Gear Exhaust Brake, 3-1/2" Exhaust, Chrome valve covers and heater lines, 5K air bags, Boost/Pyro/Tach Gauges, Green/Silver, new 40-20-40 bucket seats, 151K

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

When I was up there on 5/14 Lorin said you were going to stop by. I am glad you found them as good as I did. Check my post - I had them put in a new pump and exhaust brake. Like you I couldn't believe how well my '93 runs. They are good.
Happy Trails

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1993 250 4X2 - Banks Power Pack, BD Power Injectors, K&N Air Filter, 6 gauges and new 15% + pump. 27lbs boost unloaded. Horton fan, NV4500 5 speed and BD Exhaust Brake.

 

[J DeMaio]

Well guys, how much horsepower will we make if we advance the pump timing to 1. 7mm and install a Jardine 4" exhaust with a straight-pipe? I don't have an E. G. T. gauge and wonder if the Exhaust temps would increase to dangerously high levels with this modification? What does this do to fuel milage? Will this wear the pump out? Thanks for the info, I think i'm going to do this when my old exhaust falls off, it's almost there!

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

Hi J DeMaio
I am running a 3. 5 inch exhaust - pump timimg is 1. 7 my mileage on that trip was 24. 16 and my exhaust temp is down about 150 degrees. My '93 has more power but boost has dropped slightly - I will adust the boost back up again. Hope that answers you questions.
Happy Trails
Bob

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1993 250 4X2 - Banks Power Pack, BD Power Injectors, K&N Air Filter, 6 gauges and new 15% + pump. 27lbs boost unloaded. Horton fan, NV4500 5 speed and BD Exhaust Brake.

 

[paccool]

Before I had the work done I saw EGT of 1100 degrees once when pulling the trailer up a long grade on a hot day. As I said above, only saw 900 degrees after the work. Will try to get some 0-60 times soon.

Stan

 

[J DeMaio]

Well, great guys. I got some very good input and news here. Looks like mileage stays the same, E. G. T. 's drop, and you gain more power. How much horsepower does this add? Did you advance the timing yourself, what are the tricks? Now, about boost. Does doing this remove some of the turbo lag, how do those aftermarket exhausts do on helping this porblem? I'm just curious, I want to do the best/right modifications. Don't really want to spend the money on turbo housings. Thanks!

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

I am running a Banks 14cm torbo with about a 1 sec. lag. The pump is a 230hp pump but I feel hp is slightly higher maybe 250 to 260? I'll tell you this - when boost comes up with this pump it will set you back in the seat. I still want to dyno it to get hard numbers but that will have to wait until I find a dyno close to Portland Or that has someone that knows what he is doing running it.
Every mod I have done for preformance has also improved mileage. I feel I am close to the best all around setup regarding preformance/driveability.
Happy Trails

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1993 250 4X2 - Banks Power Pack, BD Power Injectors, K&N Air Filter, 6 gauges and new 15% + pump. 27lbs boost unloaded. Horton fan, NV4500 5 speed and BD Exhaust Brake.

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

I'm a little surprised at seeing the 1. 7mm setting so many seem to be using. For some time I read here that a good setting for 1st Gen's was about 1. 35 - 1. 40mm
I had a chat with Piers Harry (apparently formerly of BD) who said he set our trucks at 1. 40mm lift(timing) for great results.
I don't know if that was specific to his personal type of pump tuning or not. Mine is set at about 1. 37mm and I noticed a distinct difference in less smoke, smoother idle, and some power improvement.
But, hey, what do I know, thats why I hang around in here, to learn.
Regards, Bush'

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93. 5 W250 4X4,HD Spring Pkg, Rancho 7000's, Rear Swaybar,Dual Shock Front Stabilizer,BD 180HP Injectors,31/2" Mandrel bent exhaust,BD16cm 'Hot End',Modest Pump Tweaks(lock collar still on)Star Wheel@3oclock/Timed @ 1. 37mm,K&N Air,Isspro Pyro (Post Turbo),Tach,transmission Temp,Auto Meter Oil Filled Boost Ga. , 3:54's, 4 Speed Auto, Clubcab, Aftermarket Reclining Buckets w/ctr Drop Down seat/console, Black over Silver, 22psi,285-65R-16's,American Racing Clear Coat Mags, Amsoil 15W-40HD Marine,12,000 lb. Warn Winch,KC Spots. 103,900 Kms (64,600 mi's). NOT A VENDOR,Just an end user

 

[J DeMaio]

Well, what should I set my timing at if I have the stock 21cm turbo housing. Will 1. 7mm send her too much fuel and cause high E. G. T. 's? The only other thing i'm going to do is install a jardine 4" performance exhaust from turbo to tail. Thanks for any information!

 

[J DeMaio]

Well, I haven't gotten any replies. Where is everyone at? If the pump timing is advanced to 1. 7mm will this harm the engine because it is basically stock? What else can I do for power? I'm going to add a Jardine Performance 4" exhaust and don't really want to spend money on turbo housings. Why is the timing retarded from the factory? Do you need any special tools to do this operation? Thanks!

 

[F Simkowski (In Memory)]

J DeMaio:

I would suggest you go to the 1st Gen. Archives and open up these two topics:

"super hot pre 93" and "16cm Turbo Housing".

Read all the posted threads in these two topics.

Now for my recommendations- Get a boost and pyro gage set on your truck... FIRST. . then you can safely and accurately see your modifications take shape.

My previous '92 (CPL 1351) was set at 1. 35mm lift (timing), and had a 16cm2 hot end turbo housing... ...

KEENO might attest to the truck's "enhanced" power levels, and daily driveability.

As far as your comment regarding the cost of the housing vs. the free flow exhaust system... they both are recommended, and the housing should cost $150. 00-$160. 00.

Get into those archives.....

Good luck!

Frank Simkowski



Oh Yeah... The '92 is in the signature link.



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Frank Simkowski '98 Cummins 12v, Big Medicine. Got Diesel.

http://dodgeram.org/rides/04/frank_s/oldschool.htm

 

[F Simkowski (In Memory)]

This is goin' to the top for a few more comments.

 

[paccool]

Originally posted by J DeMaio

Well, I haven't gotten any replies. Where is everyone at? If the pump timing is advanced to 1. 7mm will this harm the engine because it is basically stock? What else can I do for power? I'm going to add a Jardine Performance 4" exhaust and don't really want to spend money on turbo housings. Why is the timing retarded from the factory? Do you need any special tools to do this operation? Thanks!

You can see from my signature what mods I have done to the truck. Changing the timing did nothing but help, dropped EGT and gave more power. I can't say what helped the most though-was it the timing of the pump or the fact top dead center was off?



TDC was off from the factory because some one screwed up. Wentland told me that they find about half the trucks they work on are not set properly.



I had the timing set by a shop cause I didn't know how to do it. I didn't see how they set and locked the timing on the bench so can't answer the question about tools. There were some special sockets used to remove all the fuel lines and they had a stop made up to put in the injector hole to find top dead center. also had a dial indicator with a mag base that was used as a pointer.



Now that I've seen them do the timing would I try it myself next time? I dont think so. I would feel better about having someone do it for me. Could I do it? I think so but I would not get it done in the time it took the shop. One more thing I should have done was to have the shop put the pump on a test stand and check all the other adjustments.



Stan

 

[KEENO]

Hey Guys!



I just got hooked back up and wanted to reply from last week.



Both of our trucks are set @ 1. 35mm of plunger travel @ TDC measured via a dial indicator & a TDC tool in the #1 injector hole. This is a calibration that has been widely used by Ted Jannetty and others w/ great reults. 1. 35mm does great things to a intercooled Fist Gen!



Is it the the only cal. to use? I'm not sure...



I had spoke to Jim Leonard about having a '93 W250 timed that we purchased out on the west coast and he mentioned that he use to always use 1. 7mm for the non-intercooled trucks and still uses it for the '92 & '93 intercooled trucks. I was a bit hesitant and we never did get the truck accurately timed.



Now hearing that Wentland is using this spec I'm curious of the added benefits. Maybe Power Wagon or Ted "J" can step in here and give us some more specific VE pump timimg talk.



Keeno

 

[J DeMaio]

Pump Timing

Well guys, the pump timing advanced to 1. 7mm is better than stock? Why didn't Cummins have this advanced from the factory to make the engine run better? Also, why is TDC off from the factory, these factors are usually set at very close tolerances for gas engines. It seems it would make the engine run worse if these settings were off, correct? Even without the turbo housing, will this still lower E. G. T. 's? I'm very concerned about doing these things and them possibly hurting the engine. I will have a professional injector pump rebuilder do these modifications.

 

[paccool]

J, like I said in the first post, there are different timing points for the engine we have and I think it comes back to the use the engine was designed for. Dodge had several constraints to work around, one was pollution and another was the drive train. Think of the problems Dodge would have had if they put an engine in that was more than the transmission and drive train would handle!



They needed to keep the power at a point below where things started breaking. If a new truck in 93 smoked like mine does when under a load, the government would never have allowed the release of the things! ( And mine doesn't smoke any where near what cummzpowr's rig does!)



I still have the stock housing on my truck and it didn't seem to cause any problems other than help performance.



Since I'm a relative rooky when it comes to diesels maybe some of the more knowledable guys can step in and help out here with a good explaination as to the different timing points. Hey Power Wagon, you there anyplace?

 

[paccool]

J

I've tried to post reply to your last question 2 times but notheing happens. This is a test to see if it gets through.



Stan

 

[paccool]

J,

I'll try again. I answered twice yesterday but neither one made it through.



I still have the stock turbo on my truck.



Dodge uses this engine for lots of vehicles. Depending on the use, the power outputs are different. Dodge had to use lower power due to the drive train. Can you imagine all the warranty problems they would have had if they used the high power version! The different versions all had different pump timing to match the different power levels.



I'm sure that smog was an issue as well. If the trucks came out in 93 smoking as much as mine does under load, the Government would never have allowed them on the road. (Cummnzpowr's truck smokes a lot more than mine)



Hopefully one of the wizards of the diesel will give a better explaination of this. HEY POWER WAGON< HOW 'BOUT IT?



Stan

 

[KEENO]

"Timing... what, how, why? Answers- an very long"

Yeah Baby!



All of this pump timing talk has sent my memory and the "search" button into motion... .



I remember "Power Wagon" (Diesel Guru) doing an in depth description about timing and the internal operation of the Bosch VE pump. Well I found it!... and wish I knew how to attach the posting to this note but my computer knowledge hasn't advanced to that point yet...



Regardless: search for "Timing... what, how, why? Answers- and very long" authored by PW on 2/21/2001. CLICK on the Hyperlink in the 'next' KEENO post to view



Grab a beverage, sit back and let the knowledge soak in. It's an impresive posting!



Hope this helps... . Thanks, PW!



KEENO

 

[KEENO]

Keeno's first attempt at a hyperlink!



PW Timing Post



OH YEAH! That's the ticket!