Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) pump timing

[K5IP]

Hi Guys,

Long time reader, first time post.

I have a 95 Ram which seems to have all the symptoms of late timing, (lots of white smoke and rough operation especially when cold). I have the Dodge service manuals and the pump timing does not seem beyond my scope, however I don't have any of the special timing tools. I do however have an end-reading caliper which I think could be used instead of the screw-in dial indicator used by Dodge.

Has anyone tried to verify the pump timing using this rather crude idea?

 

[rjones]

I wouldnt do it, the timing needs a lot more delecate intrument like a dial indicator cause 1* is very small increment... Rick

 

[drees1]

Before you set it the right way with tools, you can do a quick check with out any fancy tools. Set the engine on #1 TDC using the timing pin in the front cover, (Plastic push-pull plug in the front cover between the injection pump and block) Unscrew the BIG hex plug mid way on the injection pump, some oil will come out. The timing blade in the window should be centered, and if you reversed the pump timing pin (held in the plug) it should engage the blade at TDC for stock timing. I don't recommend that you use the blade and pump pin to hold the pump while timing it, the blade is too weak and can bend or break, big $$'s. But this is a 15min basic check if you can move your engine plug in and out by hand. Hint: pull the pump timing plug first and you can find the blade as you roll it over, and then when you are close rock it slowly to get the engine pin to go in.

 

[K5IP]

pump timing check

Thanks for the "quick check" timing info.

I have already used the timing pin for valve setting so I know how to use it. I will use your info check the basics setting.



I understand that a fixed dial indicator will provide very accurate info on pump piston displacement but since I don't have this unit, and if I find through your procedure, that the timing is off (late) I probably will still try to measure it using my end reading caliper.

It is a digital job which is quite accurate, however the problem is reastablishing a reference when the unit is not permanently mounted. I will take several measurements to veriy repatibility before I try anything, but will still give it a try.

Perhaps with the info from your quick check, and my caliper depth measurements, I'll know if i really need to do anything to it.

Again,

Thanks

K5IP

 

[rjones]

Originally posted by drees1

Before you set it the right way with tools, you can do a quick check with out any fancy tools. Set the engine on #1 TDC using the timing pin in the front cover, (Plastic push-pull plug in the front cover between the injection pump and block) Unscrew the BIG hex plug mid way on the injection pump, some oil will come out. The timing blade in the window should be centered, and if you reversed the pump timing pin (held in the plug) it should engage the blade at TDC for stock timing. I don't recommend that you use the blade and pump pin to hold the pump while timing it, the blade is too weak and can bend or break, big $$'s. But this is a 15min basic check if you can move your engine plug in and out by hand. Hint: pull the pump timing plug first and you can find the blade as you roll it over, and then when you are close rock it slowly to get the engine pin to go in. [/QUOT





What can you do if the pin is already broken off? I need to retime mine and someone had broken both end off the pin and I cant get to it to replace it without taking the injector pump off... .

 

[Bob4x4]

rjones,if you are asking about the piece that may be broken off in the gear it is just plastic and you can usually remove it with a small pick and a bit of patience. A new pin can be purchased at the dealer or a Cummins facility.



Bob

 

[WDaniels]

I talked to Piers about the timing pin and the timing. He stated that with the pin pushed in the timing can be off by up to 3 degrees. At least that is what he told me with my timing problems.

WD

 

[K5IP]

Wow,

Thanks again all.

I have established TDC using both the pin method and the "piston touching valve" method and I agree that there is some ambiguity in the timing pin. I found about +/- . 75 deg in my engine. I am, however looking for timing errors greater than that, perhaps 3 or 4 deg. Anyhow, if I do need to set this thing there seems to be quite a variety of opinions about where it should be set. Mine is a 95 5spd, and I've seen everything from 15 to 18 deg in various TDR responses for this engine/transmission combo.

Again, my original querie was weather reprodicable results could be obtained without a permanently fixed dial indicator, using only an end reading caliper.

Hey, all this response is great. Thanks

K5IP

 

[rjones]

Originally posted by Bob4x4

rjones,if you are asking about the piece that may be broken off in the gear it is just plastic and you can usually remove it with a small pick and a bit of patience. A new pin can be purchased at the dealer or a Cummins facility.



Bob

Well Whom ever had my my truck before me broke not only the gear side but the outside part too I cant even get pliers on it its flush with the housing... I have 2 new pins at home but unless I take the Injector pump off I cant get to the mounting bolts... ..... Rick

 

[Andy Redmond]

How to remove a broken timing pin

Remove the ds battey and charge air cooler tube going to the intake.



Find a small screwdriver and a pencil magnet and pry the toothed star washer out of the timing pin holder.



Find a 1/8 drill 6" or longer, chuck it up in a very smal drill (cordless 12v) and go at an angle and very slow to prevent the bit from wandering. After the bit sinks a 1/4 in. or so, get your o-ring picks out and start wiggling. The pin should pop out.



DO NOT DRILL TO DEEP and damage your timing pin holder.



Get a new timing pin, o-ring and lube it up and reinsert into the engine (not engaged in the pump gear). Place the toothed washer in a bench vise and carefully increase the concave (bend the ends very slightly with needle nose pliers etc. )



Go try it in the holder its likely too loose. Take the toothed washer and lay it concave side up on the anvil of the vise and push downward with a 1/2" 3/8 dr. deep socket and retry it.



When its gets close, start it by hand and then apply pressure with the socket aforementioned in your palm and PUSH!



It only needs to go in . 020 or so to not fall out.



I think many dodge techs use a starter button and let the starter bar the engine until the timing pin falls in the pump gear's hole, this technique usually breaks the tit off the business end of the timing pin.



FWIW if the tit is missing find the recess in the pump gear with a bright light and a small mirror and pry the plastic out with a o-ring pick etc.



Good luck,



Andy

 

[rjones]

Re: How to remove a broken timing pin

Originally posted by Andy Redmond

Remove the ds battey and charge air cooler tube going to the intake.



Find a small screwdriver and a pencil magnet and pry the toothed star washer out of the timing pin holder.



Find a 1/8 drill 6" or longer, chuck it up in a very smal drill (cordless 12v) and go at an angle and very slow to prevent the bit from wandering. After the bit sinks a 1/4 in. or so, get your o-ring picks out and start wiggling. The pin should pop out.



DO NOT DRILL TO DEEP and damage your timing pin holder.



Get a new timing pin, o-ring and lube it up and reinsert into the engine (not engaged in the pump gear). Place the toothed washer in a bench vise and carefully increase the concave (bend the ends very slightly with needle nose pliers etc. )



Go try it in the holder its likely too loose. Take the toothed washer and lay it concave side up on the anvil of the vise and push downward with a 1/2" 3/8 dr. deep socket and retry it.



When its gets close, start it by hand and then apply pressure with the socket aforementioned in your palm and PUSH!



It only needs to go in . 020 or so to not fall out.



I think many dodge techs use a starter button and let the starter bar the engine until the timing pin falls in the pump gear's hole, this technique usually breaks the tit off the business end of the timing pin.



FWIW if the tit is missing find the recess in the pump gear with a bright light and a small mirror and pry the plastic out with a o-ring pick etc.



Good luck,











Thanks for the info I tried for hours to get that ring out last summer its really in there I cant budge it... I even tried taking the housing off but they use torx head screw and all it does is round out the screw... . Rick



Andy

 

[Andy Redmond]

If you can get some tiny side cutters, mini hacksaw etc into the tight area you might "destroy" the reataining washer and purchase a new one. I will warn you, I doubt if Dodge stocks either the pin or the washer, so maybe order ahead.



The good news is for less than a 10 spot you can get a pin, o-ring and washer.





Good luck

Andy

 

[rjones]

Andy... I already have the pin cummins had them in stock so I got 2 however the ring I can hardley get my hand down there it must be very rusty or dirty I sprayed oil and let it soak just cant get enough leverage down there to get it out... .

 

[Bob4x4]

rjones,

don't sweat the small stuff and remember it is all small stuff I just use a hose tool (Snap on) picture a scratch awl with a 90 degree bend in it. You only have to hook the retaining ring slightly and it will pop out very easily,it must be done by feel. The first time will be a learning experience. It is not necessary to reinstall the retainer ,the o-ring will hold the pin in place. I have never heard of any one foolish enough to try to turn the engine over with the starter and engage the pin. I would guess it is more likely they just forgot to pull the pin out before barring over the engine.

Good luck Bob

 

[rscurtis]

I had the timing checked and adjsuted by aa highly regarded

shop in the Northeast, but was not happy with the results.

The exhaust would burn your eyes, it smoked when idling in

gear, and low-end torque was diminished, but it was very

responsive above 2000 rpm. No change in fuel economy, though.

I became concerned, however, when cold weather set in, as the

engine was very noisy when cold. So I purchased a dial indicator

(to find TDC), the Snap-On gear puller, and the Kent-Moore

timing kit. I also made a timing tape for the harmonic balancer

so I could find out where the timing was. The timing was set to

near 20 degress, so I reset it to 14. No more smoke or smell,

torque is back, cold starts are clean snd smooth. To help to

answer your question as to whether you need the timing tools,

you're measuring plunger height in hundredths of a mm. To

attempt a timing adjustment without them is like playing the

lottery. Also, some of the charts in the '95 service manual are

not properly referenced for manual and automatic transmissions.

My truck ran quite well before I did anything- I probably should

have left it alone.

 

[K5IP]

Thanks again guys,

All information is appreciated.

I started this post to see if i could verify the pump timing. That is still my intent. Then if I find what I think is a problem, get it timed properly (or find a timing kit). I realize this may not be easy, but I still think I'll try.

I have also been playing my own electrical scheme. Using a strain gauge mounted on the #1 high pressure line, I can see the pressure delivery impulse on the line with an oscilloscope. Now I need to design a circuit to use this information to drive a timing light so I can check this the way I used to do it.

The fun continues (You can see I am really an electrical, not a mechanical type. )

Again, thanks guys

K5IP (Amateur radio callsign)

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Does Snap-on sell the best timing kit or does Miller!



Snap-on's doesn't have a barring tool!



I can't find the kit in Millers site... . or haven't yet.



Snap-on will run $250 of so with the barring tool, what about Miller.



Jim

 

[Andy Redmond]

about 238+25% (2001 price sheet) They were granted authority under their contract with DC to raise prices. I've noticed a 25% increase on almost all items the last year or so).



800-801-5420 is the Miller order line.

 

[Champane Flight]

Old Cummins

On the older/bigger Cummins engines the pump had elongated holes for mounting. This made timing much easier. Has anyone tryed to modify one of our pumps in this manner?

 

[rnolen]

I was looking at getting my timing advanced to 15. 5 degrees. I am looking for better gas mileage, but this article makes me wonder if I don't want to just get it reset at the stock setting. What do you guys recommend? I have a 97 with 59,000 miles on it and the I am about to do the valves and was thinking about the timing since I am only getting 16mpg in town. Just bought the truck so working out the kinks.

Let me know what yall think

russ