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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) pumps, lines & whatnot

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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) injectors and pump

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Let's not lose sight of the fact that the fuel that is being returned from the fuel injectors is still flowing *through* the injection pump, and, therefore, must still be cooling said injection pump.

Bill K. , where were you measuring your return flow? On the pump return to the 'T', or after the 'T'?
Tom


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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 04-27-2001). ]
 
whether the fuel is being returned thru the head or from the pump return is not that big a concern , its returning from somewhere , we were feeding it with a 110gph pump and only seeing 30gph back to the tank , lets say that there is 15gph going to the injectors , wheres the other 65gph ??? is it evaporating ? its not spilling on the ground . if time permits i will put it before the "T" just to make you guys happy , but that may have to wait till i get home and have the flowmeter shipped to me .

heres a quickie on the latest test , stock factory lift pump fed by the factory pickup , no more than 36 inches to the bottom of the fuel tank , pump on the side of the frame rail in front of the rear spring mount . a piece of - 6 line to a 90* swept end into a weber fitting into the stock fuel filter , the line out of the filter is stock factory issue and the banjo bolts (2) are as delivered from DC except the schrader is cut off , bolt drilled and tapped on the end for 1/8" npt to connect the pressure gauge and being powered by the factory electric signal , no added relays .

DD2 , DDTTPM

idle 11. 58psi 18gph

cruise 10 psi 24 gph

WOT 4 psi 30 gph


PE on hot level 3

idle 11. 5psi 18gph

cruise 10psi 24gph

WOT , over 100 mph

2psi 30gph

the factory pump seems to be supplying enough fuel and can keep up with engine demand at this HP level . which is around 500 at the flywheel probably a bit more , not much less .


[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 04-27-2001). ]
 
Thanks to MM and Bill K. for the testing

Great job guys #ad


[This message has been edited by Bob Wagner (edited 04-27-2001). ]
 
MM, the other 65 gpm is being bypassed from the output of the electric pump back to its input side via the pump's internal bypass regulator. This internal regulator prevents the pump from stalling when there is no output flow, and also sets the maximum output pressure of the electric pump. In other words, the excess fuel just circulates in the electric pump. I apologize for the redundancy here, I just want clarity.

I don't know enough about the VP-44 to say whether the fuel from the injector return would be considered to be 'cooling flow'.

Tom

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.
 
I would like to thank everyone involved with this testing and R&D work. You all make the membership worth the $$. So in reading the last post I am begining to think that moving my lift pump to the rear of the truck and putting the -6an SS lines from the stock fuel line to the injection pump will be enough for my truck (and enough for most of our trucks). What do you all think??

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John D. Rathert Jr.
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01 2500 Forrest Green Sport SLT+ QC LWB 4x4 Auto 3. 54 rear end with all options avail. DC Nerf Bars, DC Grill Guard, DC mud flaps, Line-X bed liner, Leer 160XL Topper, Power Edge, EZ Edge, SPA Boost/EGT Gauge on pillar mount, DTT's tc/vb combo, 275 RV injectors, DD 4" Exhaust and a KN RE0880 where the air box use to be. New turbo (HX40), SS fuel lines and bigger injectors in planning stages... . See My Truck, Dads truck: 98. 5 3500 SLT QC LWB 4x4, Brother Truck: 92 W250 SLT CC LWB 4x4 (Dads old truck) Winter fun - 2000 Skidoo Summit 700
I am my own warranty station. ZOOM ZOOM
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cummon guys arent we all tired of this yet... ..... I cant even think straight anymore, I think the best solution is still the 55gl drum on the roof and use a garden hose to feed the vp... ... ... . This system will satisfy even the most fruga members and overfeed even the power mongrels


ps this is just humor, but I too have lost the vision and the light at the end of the tunnel, chris how is all the project X stuff coming?????????????????

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Danelle's Dodge
 
For the record,

This whole thing for me started when i read the post about prime loc causing lift pump and the vp44 pump failures.

I found the whole post very interesting, and somewhat confusing, and i must confess i cheated while doing some of my r&d. I hired an engineer to check out the system but wanted to verify his findings before commenting.

I'll be honest with you , i thought this could be a good business opportunity, selling a complete fuel system upgrade.

When the engineer gave me his findings, his findings suported prime loc that pressure has very little meaning without flow.

Obviously i have invested a great amount of money to date in this project, i however believed it would be a good investment at the time.

Much to my chagrin, our testing proved the engineer and prime loc's position.

Based on all our findings, the most effective method is to simply move the oem lift pump closer to the tank and clean up some of the fittings(banjo bolts).

Installing a bigger line to feed the existing oem pump or aftermarket high performance pump at its factory location is a waste of money.

There really was no politically correct way of saying this, i know a lot of people have invested a lot of money.

I am not an expert in fuel systems but i have to conclude as long as your pressure does not drop below 2 psi,you will be ok with the oem system as is.

Next upgrade from there in my opinion would be to move the oem pump closer to the tank.

Keep in mind those of you in cold weather climates, the engine compartment does provide a warm location for your fuel pump to protect the fuel pump from geling.

From there a slightly higher flowing fuel pump located closer to the fuel tank, and once again if cold weather is a factor , the engine compartment is a warmer climate area.

Let me know how you feel about our findings, i am a transmission technician and i am trying to learn about the fuel systems just as you are.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology
 
cummon Bill buy my fuel system... ... ... .
55 gallon drum and garden hose, ps I am gonna have a fire sale here real quick on this particluar setupi so buyers look out for the "hot deals" page as the "drum and hose" system is about to go www dot
 
more fuel for the fire--explain to me how an internal bypass works--where's the fuel bypassing to??? there's no return line so basically does the fuel just spin inside the housing until it finds it's way to the VP44 or ???? again if it stays inside the motor it's got to be heating up more than if you added a regulated return system--again am I off base--

Brandon I want two of those systems to balance out the rig---tomorrow is fuel system play day-----chris
 
TXRam I believe the VP44 has two pumps in it. One is high pressure and the other is a low pressure feed pump that boosts the pressure enough to open the return. I figure that's why the higher the rpm the higher the gph back to the tank regardless of inlet pressure from the lift pump. The internal feed pump of the VP44 seems to control most of the fuel flow to a certain extent as long as it has fuel to pump. Could be the reason for the 30 gph max return reading. Either that or the size of the relief valve.

Just a couple other things to think about #ad
 
Chris, in the case of an electric pump such as the Carter or the Holley GPH-110, that is exactly what happens. There is an internal regulator comprised of a spring and piston in a cylinder, the top of which is ported to the output side of the electric pump. The pressure on the outlet side of the pump pushes the piston against the spring until it uncovers a slot or hole in the side of the cylinder which is ducted to the inlet side of the pump. Any fuel that doesn't get used by whatever the pump is supplying just goes round and round in the pump. The Holley GPH-110 has an externally accessible regulator spring; you can adjust its internal bypass pressure even though it was designed to be used with an external regulator. I wish I had a camera; I'd strip down my junker twice-rebuilt Holley and take a picture. It's really obvious how it works when you remove the cover plate.

Yes, it's probably going to heat up the fuel a touch, but remember, the VP-44 is drawing fuel from the lift pump, so there's always going to be some cooler fuel entering the lift pump. I've got a Carter 4601 set up as a gasoline transfer pump from when I was tankering fuel in my van. If you like, I can block the outlet and see how warm it gets and how long it takes. I suspect that it isn't going to get very warm; it's got enough mass and the volume of fuel in the actual pump cavity is quite small. On the other hand, the fuel that's being returned from the injector fuel drain manifold passage is going to be at least 195F, and that's being dumped back into the tank. I don't think a bit of heating from the lift pump is going to be of any importance. But please! Let's not get into any heat-related stuff right now. We've all got enough to think about just getting an adequate fuel supply to the VP-44!

On the other hand, hot fuel might be a bonus during the winter!

Man! It takes me hours to compose some of these posts. I really respect the time and energy you guys put into this stuff!!

Tom

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 04-28-2001). ]
 
OO, I believe the low pressure pump in the VP-44 operates at 300psi. It's possible that somehow it gets back to the relief valve, but it's just speculation at this point.

Tom

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 04-28-2001). ]
 
Tommy T--thanks--I guess what I was trying to say was there's some fuel that's stuck in space out there, in the lines or ????, and maybe it would be smart to get it back to the tank as fast as possible so the pump isn't working as hard. The lift pump moves fuel 100% of the time, but if there's fuel in the lines that's not being used or returned the pump continues to pump against this fuel. would it not be better for the pump to move this fuel out of the lines and back to the pump so there's not so much back pressure on the pump??? I would think it would. just my common sense approach---got to go tinker with my new pump and fuel lines--and yes it's way to big according to Mopar M's & Bill's findings, but what the heck---chris
 
Chris, the system you have described is the reason I borrowed that BG regulator from you. I believe the ultimate race fuel system would be to mount the regulator at the engine using the old 3/8's feed line for a return. The pump would run wide open and the reg. at the engine would limit the pressure to say 15 psi. This means the fuel doesn't do loop d loops within the pump an absorb heat, it gets blasted back to the tank. The fuel to the injector pump should stay cooler as a result.
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Nowel/Performance Diesel
 
Chris, it doesn't matter. The pump doesn't care where the fuel is circulating, whether it's bypassing the fuel internally, or pumping it somewhere else. If the engine is running (which is the idea here) there is always fuel movement in the system. Practically speaking, the pump is always creating pressure if it is functioning in a proper environment. The only time there is no pressure is when the pump is free flowing; that is, there is nothing connected to its output port. what is 'back pressure' if it is not simply the pressure generated by the electric pump?

The focus here, and the challenge at hand appears to be: maintaining a stable pressure at the entrance to the VP-44, and *ensuring* cooling flow out of the overflow port of the VP-44. How can we do that?

Tom

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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.
 
HVAC, what kind of lift pump are you using?

Aw, heck! Ah wuz just standin' in the shower when it hit me: most (I won't say all, because there are *always* exceptions to the rule) electric rotary pumps must have a bypass in them to prevent them from stalling if there is no output flow. It's just the question of what pressure the internal relief valve is going to open at.

Here's the way I would do it: HVAC, you're on the right track. Having a higher pressure pump at the tank will ensure that there is adequate pressure and flow at the engine-mounted regulator. 15psi to the VP-44 might be higher than is necessary. What do you think would happen if the overflow regulator valve in the VP-44 were removed or gutted and *replaced* with a small orfice, say . 060 to . 125"? The VP-44 would see, say, 12psi under all circumstances, because of the external feed regulator; there would always be cooling flow out of the VP-44's return port because of the orfice. Isn't that what we're trying to do? If the pressure at the output of the regulator at WOT dropped from our 12 psi (or whatever) figure, then it means that there needs to be more pressure/less restriction on the supply side to the regulator. the . 060 to . 125" restrictor isn't going to overtax the return line to the tank and could be made bigger if necessary,as long as the lift pump handles the overhead.
Does anyone see any holes in this?
Do you think it would work if the VP-44 saw less than 12 psi at its input? How 'bout 10? Or 6?
Food for thought.
Tom

[This message has been edited by TommyTurbosaurus (edited 04-28-2001). ]
 
Mopar,

I think you are stepping over the perfect pump to go and look for a different one.
email me the part # for the summit pump and i will order it and test it.

I feel perfectly comfortable with my truck at 2-3 psi pressure. If the summit pump can flow enough fuel, then it shouldnt matter whether its 7 psi or 15 psi as long as there is enough fuel at wide open throttle.

I also feel it may prove to be more durable since 76gph at 7psi should be a more durable pump than one that pumps 110gph at 15 psi. (less back pressure against the pump)

I talked to Lawrence at DD saturday night, since he is the only guy i know with R&D data on the vp44 pump , he said too much pressure at the inlet of the vp44 pump can actually cause more wear to the vp44 pump.

Remember the higher the pressure the less the flow, i am still having a hard time getting used to that.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology
 
Gentlemen, read this carefully.
Bill, don't buy into that higher pressure, lower flow BS! For a given size of a restriction, raising the pressure on the inlet side of a restriction *will* increase the flow rate through that restriction. Set up a simple test with a pump and try it. That Bernoulli stuff will just confuse the issue. We must ensure that the VP-44 is the largest 'restriction' in its feed system. If it is, then most of the pressure that is generated by the lift pump (wherever it is) will be present at the VP-44. There will be some pressure lost at any given flow rate because of parasitic restrictions in the filters, fittings, lines, etc. That is why we try to use less restrictive components, so that the downstream pressure losses do not reduce the available pressure at the VP-44 to less than desired. Lowering the restriction is better than raising the pressure, because it gives a more stable pressure at the VP-44 with varying flow rates, obviously. A higher-pressure lift pump could be used to overcome system pressure loss at high flow values, but that would require a regulator feeding the VP-44 to limit the pressure at the VP-44 inlet to a safe level when the flow rate, and, consequently, the system losses are lower.

Consider this: I'll use MM's figures (DD2, DDTTPM) from his post of 04-27-2001 05:05PM. At WOT he's seeing 30 gph flowing back from the injector/overflow combination. Assume that 15 gph is injected and burned. If this is the case, there *must* be 45 gph flowing into the VP-44. The pressure at the VP-44 is 4 PSI. If his lift pump is capable of delivering 45 gph at 15 psi (and we realize it can, because it's allegedly capable of delivering 110 gph @ 15 psi), that means that at 45 gph, there is enough restriction in his filters, fittings and lines (the system) to reduce the pressure by 11 psi. There is 11 psi loss from the outlet of the lift pump to the inlet of the VP-44, when the system is flowing 45 gph. Here's where it gets tricky. If MM installs a pump that is only capable of 7 psi, and the system loss is 11 psi at 45 gph, what the VP-44 creates when it is demanding 45 gph is -4 psi. Huh? Yes, *IF* the VP-44 is capable of pulling a vacuum, that's what will be seen on a pressure (vacuum) gauge on the inlet fitting on the VP-44. That's because our lift pump can only generate 7 psi. We know that our loss is 11 psi through the system at 45 gph which is set by the demand of the VP-44. 7-11=-4.
Here is THE important things to remember:

1. GALLONS PER HOUR IN THE FUEL DELIVERY SYSTEM IS DETERMINED BY THE DEMAND (THE REQUIREMENT) OF THE VP-44, NOT THE LIFT PUMP.
2. THE LIFT PUMP MUST BE ***CAPABLE*** OF DELIVERING MORE GPH THAN THE VP-44 DEMANDS UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.

3. PRESSURE AT THE LIFT PUMP ONLY ENSURES THAT THE REQUIRED GPH IS AVAILABLE TO THE VP-44 AT SOME DESIRED POSITIVE PRESSURE AFTER ALL THE SYSTEM PRESSURE LOSS (FILTERS, FITTINGS AND LINES) IS TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.

4. THE LIFT PUMP WILL ONLY DELIVER WHAT IS DEMANDED OF IT, UP TO THE LIMIT OF ITS GPH CAPACITY.

MM, have you plumbed the flow meter into the return port of the VP-44 Yet? If not, then I don't believe that your data is valid. It is still my contention that most of the fuel you are seeing in the return line to the tank (after the 'T') is actually coming from the injector return manifold at the back of the head. 30 gph sounds like a lot of fuel until you realize that it is only 2 quarts a minute. In reality that's not much fuel. I will be plenty embarrassed and apologetic if this is not the case. I will eat a suitable size of crow; they're plentiful around here and nobody will miss just one! Plumb that sensor! Prove me wrong!

Respectively submitted for your consideration.
Tom


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Tom Glover - VE7DQ, C-GWTG
99 QC SLT, LWB 4x2, ETC/DGP, Wht/Agate, etc.
 
I'm as confused as a baby in a topless bar!

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2001. 5 2500 4x4 ETC/DXX Rhinoliner,Autometer EGT,boost and fuel,Good Year MT/R 285/75R16,no muffler 4" resonator back,Scotty,silencer ring missing,Rancho 2" front lift,55w. backup lites
 
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