Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) pumps, lines & whatnot

[rweis]

-- email address removed --



Thanks,



Bob Weis



The fuel pickup is probably why there is 5 gallons in the tank at empty. How low do you go before refuel with the gravity feed? ie highway grades etc etc, 1/4 to go? 3/8 to go?



Do you have an inbed tank if you went to low on grades like mtns and caused cavitation?

 

[csutton7]

I have the stock tank and I usually try and fill up at around a 1/2 tank, but only because it's easier on the wallet--I rarely go below 1/4 tank, but I've been lower numerous times and have never had a problem and that's here in the hills of San Francisco---a real sump would be better no doubt, but I've never had an issue with my set up concerning low fuel---chris

 

[AdamH]

Bob--I'm looking at re-locating my lp. (on the third lp, tank module filter plugged, caused most of my problems) My piping and hydraulics engineering background tells me that the re-located lp will not know the difference between the draw straw method,or bottom feed method that Chris has, as long as the pump is located at the same elevation on each set-up, the pump will see a flooded suction as long as the fuel level is above the suction port of the pump. Seems to me the draw straw is much easier. Please set me straight if I'm wrong. However,hats off to Chris for engineering a system that has worked well. My real concern with either setup is fuel starvation during extended accleleration. No one has reported problems that I can find, so I guess there are none???



Where is a good place to find the Racor filter? Search turned up several places, but I'm not familiar with any of them. It looks lilke the 690 is a 4 port and the 490 is a 2 port, and it's a bit cheaper. Any thoughts?



Adam

 

[rweis]

Adam-

Actually the 690 is a 5 port. 1 in on each side, 1 out on each side, and I think it is in on the side opposite of the mounting side.



I'm glad you said something about what the lp will "see" hydraulically. I tend to go to with "Draw Straw" just because it is not in harms way. I ran over a microwave one time at 70 mph (fell off the vehicle (they were moving stuff) in front of me) and it went under the fuel tank and did some minor "modification" to the shape of the fuel tank on the front bottom edge.



I have a "Draw Straw" to install in a couple of weeks. The hose on it is 3/8 ID. which is the same as all the AN-6 lines I have. I seem to remember that 3/8 ID will support something like 1000 HP to the ground. The VP44 will only do 45 gph. With your background you might be able to estimate what a 3/8" ID will do in GPH at say some minor suction value (-2psi?).



I get mine from SouthEast Power Systems in Tampa. Mike Franke is the parts manager and is a really really knowledgeable guy and will help in any way he can. If you have trouble finding the 690 I will be glad to go get it and ship it to you. I use the 690T (10um filter).



While I have the tank down I have a couple fo machined fittings from CStewart that rebuilt his fuel cannister about 1 1/2 years ago and has a really good thread about it. I am going to put the "Draw Straw" in with only the pickup active, block off the "dump" port, and replace whatever else with CStewart's fittings that are machined for 1@ 1/4 NPT straight through, and that may wind up having a plug in it. I want to get rid of any "plastic" or "nylon" anything that may not hold up in the future. I think the only thing that will be left is the wiring port and the roll over port.



I re-read the SM on it last night and I think I am going to get a replacement gasket for the mating screw cap. The SM says to replace it, probably no big deal, but while I am in there I am going to do that as well.



From the tank I go to the 690, then to the RASP (lp backup) so the entire fuel system is working with clean fuel. I also have a inline CANTON fule filter (8um) JUST before the VP input in case anything ever sluffs off anything, anywhere in the fuel system.



I like the 690. 2x the system requirement, so you probably have at least 50% overkill on filtration. The 1 thing everyone stresses that rebuilds the VP44's is surgically clean fuel, and lots of it (also why the CANTON in line (AN-12 ports)) at the right psi. I am working on being able to hit the 13. 5 psi exactely dead on (maybe +-1 psi). More on that when I have that working.



Let me know if I can help with the RACOR 690. You can get fuel heaters, WIF sensors, it has a see through bowl, and it is a industrial quality filter (comes in 2um, 10um, 30um).



Bob Weis

 

[AdamH]

Bob-

Thanks for the great info and the offer to hook me up with the filter. I found one in Houston at a marine supply, 690mam10, the "m" stands for metal bowl, so I passed on it. If anyone is looking for one of these filters, that outfit in Houston wants to sell that metal one cheap. It's been on their shelf for several years. After several hours of phone calls yesterday, I decided to get one from GreenMarine out of New Orleans, had a great discount. I got the 490, according to the Racor cat. it uses the same element as the 690, flows 90 gph, but has fewer ports so less flexibility in plumbing options, has a built in primer. So many of the people I called could not find the 690 in their cat. Seems the Racor group has some issues with part numbers.



Fuel heater: I'm going to utilize the OE filter and heater. We have a house in Connecthedots, and I make regular trips up there, sometimes into northern Vermin and New Hampster. Do I need a heater at the pump? I do not presently use any type of bio-fuel, but that may change shortly.



I like the idea of the inline filter at the VP. I'm installing one now.



Definitely replace the big o-ring on the screw cap. It really blows to stop after several hours of driving and find the bottom of the truck covered in fuel, especially with current fuel prices. I have a 75 gal. inbed tank that gravity feeds the OE tank. If I forget to close the valve, my re-used o-ring leaks like a sieve.



I'm going to try running on the OE pick up config. without the filter in the bottom. I believe my fuel pressure tap is on the return at the VP. I'll let you know how it works. I have 2nd stage Edge inj. and Edge Juice w/Att. Got the Juice and Attitude mostly as a diagnostic tool. (that's the story I told my wife) I knew something was up with the truck. Mileage and power were both down. Data from gizmo, and some other weird occurrences, told me right off that the tank filter was plugged. REALLY ticks me off that the fix Dodge has is to replace the entire module, $450, when the filter just snaps on. I normally don't act like that in public, but... Oh well, they forced me to improve my truck, which brought me to this thread, and what a thread it is! Nearly six years and 15 pages of posts! Thanks to Chris for kicking it off, and to the guys who keep bringing it back. It's made what could have been a painful learning experience a walk in the park. Thank you Thank you Thank you I was about to drop $650 for pump alone, and it would not have permanently fixed my problem.



Oh yeah, almost forgot. The 3/8" fuel line will support nearly any hp as long as you have a pump big enough to shove fuel through it, and a regulator big enough to regulate on the other end. But with the stock lp, well, I'll have to do some calcs. Or were you talking about the pickup tube? That will have a dead end. I'll do some calcs. on various vacuums w/ 3/8" i. d. I'm sure my employer doesn't mind, the oil companies have plenty of money to burn, especially ExxMo, and besides, it's all in the name of science, right?



Adam

 

[rweis]

Let me have the name of the place in Houston, I have a spare clear bowl, should be a good buy.



490 just fewer ports, but you use only 2, 1 in, 1 out.



If I were going to use a fuel heater, just being me, I would heat it right when it came out of the tank so the lp etc is happy as well. RACOR has a 300 watt, and a 500 watt heater you can plumb anywhere in the fuel lines.



Instead, I would tend to put Stanadyne PF in the fuel. The Stanadyne PF depresses the gel point to -65*, lubricates, keeps the water in suspension, anti bacteria, etc etc. Less hardware to maintain as well.



I have been playing with the idea of putting another RACOR 690 JUST before the VP44 and running their 2um filter. Mount it where the OE ff was, but it has to be thermally protected from the engine block in the when the temps are over about 100* OAT.



I am courious about the 3/8" flow rate with a small amount of suction like in the pickup tube on the "Draw Straw".



Bob Weis

 

[csutton7]

the 490 is what I have- it works great --you won't be sorry--



I originally bought a new tank top from Ted Jannetty that was set up for 1/2" supply, but after burning up the pumps that I did I ditched it for the ol' hole in the bottom----I also helped a friend install a Haisley system which was a

1/2" pickup, but he would hit 0 psi on hills and such so he ditched it----the draw straw I have yet to look into, so I have no comments on it---the sump works guaranteed that much I do know, but it's still interesting for others to keep after it to see if there's a viable alternative----chris

chris

 

[rweis]

I really like Chris' hole in the bottom, very simple, but do not like the "in harms way" location.



Thinking out loud-



Mount the bulkhead in the verticle SIDE (frame side so I can go straight up to the RACOR fuel filter?, maybe back side to keep it out of harm's way (but how long is your arm to reach the rear verticle side from the cannister location?), front side so it is easy to visually check?(but again could you physically reach it from the cannister port hole?)) about a couple of inches up from the bottom (where the radius of the physical tank bottom becomes verticle to form the side wall of the tank) and angle a pickup down to the bottom of the tank like where the bottom of the cannister would be? and attach it there, fixed position to get the same benefit of Chris' comming out of the bottom and generally below the actual fuel level (use the 5 gallon "empty" line as a reference).



Use the cannister opening to allow you to work the piping with one arm in the tank and the other arm out of the tank to tighten fittings, mounting etc (physical arm length probably dictates the fitting be in the verticle side on the frame side).



Put the cannister in for the fuel level float only. (BTW there are New MoPar fuel level float mechanism and float for most years for sale on eBay for about $60, maybe trying to "fix" the OEM float to a brass float is not an economical undertaking if the float last for several years). Seal the rest of the cannister top openings that you do not need. You then do not care about any of the fuel pickup system, screens, slides, nylon angles, plumbing, whatever that are part of the fuel cannister. The cannister is just a frame to hold the fuel level sender.



You get the benefit of simplicity, fixed mounting, fuel pickup below actual fuel level for most of the volume of the tank, nothing moves except the tank level unit arm, you have physical access to both sides of the tank wall when troubleshooting any potential problems.



Realize I have NOT actually dropped the tank yet, and I am sure there is something I assumed to be that is not actually what it is. What's wrong with the concept?



Bob Weis

 

[AdamH]

Bob-

I will contact you via email concerning the 490mam.



I ordered my Racor Tuesday afternoon, just received it, nice piece! I can see myself covering it up with all the "options". The number in Orleans is 800-470-3586; ask for Michele, she was very helpful.



I don't believe the method you have described is any different from a draw straw. The only thing that matters is where the opening of the tube is inside the tank, so mounting the bulkhead on the side will not buy you anything, if I understand you right. I was thinking, if you want a true bottom sump but are concerned about bottom damage, could a transfer case skid plate be modified to span the frame rails below the sump? I think the rails are the same distance apart at that point, but drive shaft and exhaust may be an issue, not sure. If you want a true sump how about using a modified oil filter relocation kit? It would be very similar to the one DI made. It's only going to give you a few ounces of safety, though. Chris says he's had zero problems with his arrangement. If I were going to go with a bottom mount, I would copy what he has done, and figure out some way of protecting it.

Adam

 

[csutton7]

I think the best way to build a skid plate for it is to incorporate it into the tank straps--that's been my thoughts for sometime now, but I just can't seem to get around to getting it done---If I had a metal break(brake) to bend metal(stainless or aluminum plate) I probably would've have done it by now---just another thing on my list of things I'd like to do--chris

 

[AdamH]

I know what you mean. One of the things on my list is to get my metal brake off the floor where I can use it!

Adam

 

[rweis]

Well, I guess I will go with the "Draw Straw" first and see how that does and run that for a while to prove it right or wrong before trying Chris' approach.



Thanks for the comments though, always food for thought.



Bob Weis

 

[csutton7]

I have one of the DI sumps coming---it's used, but that ok as they aren't making them any longer---I'll let you know what I think of it--it won't go on right away, but at least I will have it in hand----chris

 

[rweis]

Getting ready to do the Draw Straw:



Since the VP44 and RASP fuel is returned back to the tank vent line in my setup (both of them), I am going to use the Draw Straw fuel return port as a tank vent line to improve the tank venting during filling (less foaming when about full). Others are cutting tank vent plumbing in the tank, this way no cutting of the tank and still getting a better vent system.



Bob Weis

 

[AdamH]

Finished my pump re-location and new Racor filter install Sunday 2 am. Drove for about 150 miles yesterday, no problems. With Edge set on five, fuel pressure would drop to 4 psi at WOT. This morning on the way in to work was a completely different story. My audible low fuel pressure sounded off within 1 mile. Pressure came back up, then went down again, then back up, etc. all of this was on setting one at 20 - 65 mph, no hard acceleration at all. I finally put it together that it was happening when I hit the brakes. Currently have a little less than half tank of fuel. I still have the OE tank module with screen removed. Can't figure why it is now starving, didn't happen before. Maybe I installed the module wrong; I didn't think that was possible. Any thoughts? Also, I'm trying to get in touch with Vulcan performance for some advice on fittings and draw straw. No answer or return calls. Bob, were you able to talk to them, or did you order your draw straw online?
Adam

 

[rweis]

I have been wondering about the lack of a sump of some sort. I am wondering if the RACOR 690 sitting above the tank would act like a "sump"? (the 690 is the very first fuel component I have after the fuel is drawn out of the tank). I do not know, but cavitation is NOT one of the answers.



I ordered my Draw Straw off the internet directly.



When you say you have the OE tank module with the screen removed exactely what does that mean? Does that mean you have all the OE cannister module with only the lower screen removed? or what? What is the UM of your RACOR filter?, too restrictive? Where is your RACOR filter mounted? Getting air in the fuel pickup? Brake action, fuel rushes forward, opens a crack in the OE fuel pickup tube not normally with a forward moment on it? Seems odd, fuel starvation with 1/2 tank.



Just an aside, the target psi to the VP44 under all operational conditions is 13. 5 psi. If you are able to pull it down to 4 psi I would put a secondary pusher (RASP, FASS etc) or something like that in the system.



I am going to do the Draw Straw this week. I will try to really think about the sump concept either in the tank or out of the tank. I will have to go back and reread all the fuel cannister threads with this in mind. Is this why the VP44 fuel return (however hot the fuel is) was returned to the fuel pickup cannister?, to keep it more full (70% returned) than it otherwise would have been?, ie sort of its own baffle replinish system?



thinking -

IF YOU HAVE A RASP OR EQUIVALENT (FASS etc)

If we need to replinish the fuel cannister, then run the RASP brass VP44 bypass back to the fuel cannister before it goes through the VP44 and gets heated up. I think in one thread someone wrote that the RASP bypass fuel at 1500 rpm would shoot a stream of fuel about 10', and it might be more volume than the VP44 would ever need. Dump excessive fuel into the fuel pickup and not only cover the fuel pickup, but overflow that sump so much so that it then flows out into the rest of the tank.



If the RASP ever failed, then you are working on strictly the lp and that would depend on how you have the lp plumbed inot the RASP system.



Thinking time again, are we creating more problems than we are solving?



Bob Weis

 

[AdamH]

It's definetly an in-tank problem, fuel sloshing away from pickup. Either the module did not go all the way to the bottom, or something is cracked just below current fuel level, or i screwed up the fuel level float assembly and the tank is actually empty, or... ... I'm gonna fill it up on the way home and see what happens.

I just took it for another spin. It has the same problem with mild acceleration, AND it's losing pressure if sitting on a slight grade.

I removed the nylon material from the plastice clip filter doohickey on the bottom of the tank module, then re-installed the clip-on part. The only thing that has me concerned is if I did not reassemble the check valve properly on the bottom of the module. It was midnight when we installed the tank. That check valve could very well be the problem. The canister may not be holding the fuel in as required.

Too many people, producing way more HP than me, have used this Racor filter with no problems for it to be the culprit. It's the same element as your 690, just different head and has primer pump. All flow specs are listed as identical. I'm 99 percent sure that my problem is self inflicted. As soon as it stops raining I'll drop the tank and find out. I'll let you know in three to four weeks!

The Racor really can't act as a sump, you can only take out what goes in. Once you suck in air at the pickup, that air will make it to the lp and then to the VP and then you get to put those new Reeboks to work. You will gain only the added amount of time it takes the air to make it through the filter. How about if we epoxy a tupperware tea pitcher to the inside floor of the tank, drill some small holes near the bottom, and ran the pickup and return into it. :-laf With some thought, it might actually work. Using your un-heated bypass fuel return would be sweet.

Does the VP require 13. 5 psig or is that the max it should see? I was always felt that if I have anything above zero, then the VP has excess fuel to return. Maybe it will not allow it to flow the volume it needs for proper cooling. Enlighten me. I really don't want to replace a VP anytime soon.


I think I'm going to convert my hood to a fuel tank. Might be the easiest fix.

Adam

 

[rweis]

You know in one of the threads of years ago the suggestion was to mount a 55 gallon drum on the roof of the cab and gravity feed, well ... ... ... ... ...



Look back in my thread about 13. 5 psi what rpm and in the one about temp of the vp44 and you will see replys from mainly II that say basically the the VP44 test stand test psi is set to 13. 5 psi for calibration. The VP44 can tolerate some amount off that before it becomes a problem, generally thought to be +- 2 or 3 psi (10 psi - 16 psi).



When you stray off 13. 5 I think there are 2 things that come into play.



1- there is a diaphram that holds intermediate pressure fuel supply to the rotary pump. It is designed to flex . 5mm without damage. It has seals on it. When you stray outside of . 5mm flex the seals start to become distorted, and the diaphram can actually develop a crack if stressed too much.



2- the intermediate pressure should be 100 psi - 120 psi. Input fuel pressure (feed fuel from the lp system) has an effect on this range. If you feed too much presure or too little pressure from the lp then the intermediate pressure range is effected outside of the 100 psi - 120 psi range. II wrote that when it gets up in the 140 psi - 150 psi (might be 150 -160 I can't remember exactely) that you stress the hydraulic dynamics of the pump and can cause it to seize up. So that is why I am working on a solution to hit 13. 5 +- maybe 1 that is easy, applies to all 2nd gen, and is reasonably cheap, you do yourself. You will be able to feed anything higher then 13. 5 up to maybe 25 psi and get a nice smooth 13. 5 psi going into the VP44.



I am sure I get some air in my lines. That is why I want to do the Draw Straw to help get rid of it (I hope, - I had an idea of puting in some clear tubing in the fuel system somewhere toward the VP44 to watch the bubbles if any, ie a "sight glass"). The tupperware pitcher is not totally out of the question in theory. I was thinking of a 3 # coffee can (should not rust immersed in diesel, but what about the can seams?), ha ha ha, hummmmm?



You might be losing "prime" in your pickup. One member that put in a 1/2" pickup had a problem keeping it from dumping out I think. AN-6 / 3/8" I feel is about right, my GUESS though, just do not need restrictions less than AN-6 if that is what the rest of the fuel system is.



Bob Weis

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I am sure I get some air in my lines. That is why I want to do the Draw Straw to help get rid of it (I hope, - I had an idea of puting in some clear tubing in the fuel system somewhere toward the VP44 to watch the bubbles if any, ie a "sight glass").

I'd like to do something like that as well - if all goes according to plan, I'll be installing a Walbro pump to my setup, and the regulator will be right at the VP-44 inlet port - be pretty easy to use clear hose there and on the regulator return line to monitor fuel clarity. But I'm not sure the clear tubing available locally is safe for diesel fuel or not - suspect it isn't - plus it gets pretty soft when exposed to heat, even the stuff they have reinforced with nylon.



Back when I was testing lift pumps and pushers in a closed loop arrangement, I used clear tubing for the lines, and it was pretty spectacular the percentage of air bubbles/foaming the pumps were generating from their pumping process - and how easy it was to cause cavitation by just slightly increasing fuel line PSI...

 

[ILIANBG]

I did the Draw Straw install, about a month ago. It's all good now.

AdamH, when you installed the Draw Strawhow much did you cut from it?

Does it go pretty much to the bottom of the tank? What about the fittings on top - did you connect those good? By the way set up of the supply and return fittings on top of the Draw Straw are opposite of the OEM configuration. And the bigger fitting is the supply line. Are your lines 1/2" at the tank? Is everything dry up there while truck is idling? Those are the things I checked before driving, after I got the truck started.

Ilian