Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) pumps, lines & whatnot

[TXRam]

Well, I got the CD from Bosch. Has some pretty good info, but I would've liked more. Haven't had time to digest all of it yet - I'll do my best to finish this weekend & report back.

It did verify 2 pumps.

 

[TXRam]

Well, I just have one more thing to add right now - per the Bosch material I received, the VP44 was designed to suck fuel from the tank through a filter! No lift pump in the picture. So, I'll revert to my previous statement, as long as you have greater than 0psi at the inlet to the VP44, your pump will be fine IMHO.

Wanted to throw that out since we've been talking a bunch about pressure at the pump, higher pressure lift pumps, etc.

 

[B. Gill]

TXRAM,does the CD manual for the VP44 tell at what pressure the feed pump that is inside the VP44 supplies fuel to the high pressure section of the vp-44? i think there is some sort of a relief valve that opens when a specified pressure is reached .
bob

 

[Bob Wagner]

-Mike R BOMBed my banjo bolts on 5/11 on yes we saw a nice increase in flow.

Once you compare the modified bolts to stock for the average BOMBer its a nice added safety factor #ad


Flow was always 5psi+ at WOT

Just adding to the mix

 

[B. Gill]

just wanted to bring the thread up #ad

so ,tex ram how is r&d going with the bosch tarining CD?
was it of any help ?
bob

 

[WeirCummin]

Todd T
You are partially right about fuel being cut off to/at the injector pump. I have been playing with an o-scope the past coulpe of weeks, looking at pulse width of the solenoid and the operation of the pump in general. The soleniod to the high pressure side of the pump does close and not let fuel get through when you let your foot off the throttle, but it only stays closed until the ECM receives an idle voltage signal from the APPS aka TPS then it opens back up.

 

[Powder Extreme]

Lift pump just failed

Hi, I've been following all these posts and since my second factory lift pump just failed, I figured I'd add what I saw. I have a SPA fuel pressure gauge that will show vacuum as well as pressure. When it first started the gauge showed -3 then fluctuated back and forth between -4 and +5 (it usually would run about 9 while cruising) as I was pulling over the gauge went to -11 and the truck stalled shortly after. I coasted to a stop, turned the key off and on, lift pump ran, gauge showed +11. Shut it off waited a couple of minutes, turned it back on, gauge showed 11 again, fired the truck up, idled fine, showed 10psi. Started to pull away, gauge went to negative numbers again. Pushed in the clutch, gauge went to 9. Got back on the power, gauge went to -11 truck started to stall, pushed in the clutch gauge went to -3. Pulled over and called a tow truck. As I was waiting for the tow truck I turned the key on several times, gauge always showed at least 7psi. I checked all my fuel lines, all were tight, no leaks anywhere. What I don't understand is this: when the lift pump goes bad wouldn't it just plain quit working? Mine was supplying enough fuel to idle but not much more. This also throws a monkey wrench into the theory that the VP44 will draw fuel from the tank through the filter. When my gauge showed negative numbers, the truck really stumbled and shortly after died.



So my idea is to upgrade the fuel lines to 3/8" using custom straight thru fittings at all ends which I am currently having machined. And I am going to install the new factory lift pump I have on the frame close to the tank. My truck is near the 400hp at the wheels mark and probably won't go much higher. Does this seem like the solution or am I way off base?



Sorry for such a long post, just thought my findings might help.



Thanks,

Jerry

 

[Bigsaint]

Jerry, I believe that your thinking is right on target. By moving the lift pump back and opening up those fuel restrictions the stock Carter pump should be much happier. I have a set of fuel line upgrades enroute from Brandon and plan on loosing the banjos at the VP44 inlet, bottom of the fuel filter canister and the inlet to the fuel filter canister. I'll tackle the two remaining banjos located on the filter, pre-Mallory, at a later date.



I'm still waiting to here of what caused my Mallory's demise, I should find out this week and will post the results here as soon as I receive same. The new Mallory is located in the same position as the failed unit (adjacent to and slighty below the fuel tank). The only exception is that the new unit is now wired through a relay, with the existing ecm wire now acting as a switch. I have no idea if the original wiring caused the first Mallory to fail, but it seems plausable as the ecm wire showed 12. 4 v @ the Mallory with the truck/pump running. The new unit, with the relay, now see's 13. 8 v with both running. I guess it is possible that I slowly starved the failed unit as it could not draw the amp. s that it needed with the ecm wire. I would hazard a guess here that you would be okay with the ecm wire as the power source if you are simply moving the stock Carter pump back to the tank area. However, if you are planning on using a pump that draws more amp. s than the Carter, I would go the route of a relay for cheap insurance.



It's interesting on your SPA readings (gotta love that gauge !). I had the same readings when mine went south. I returned from a short trip inside a local store (for nothing else but a bracket to install my TST box) to find the truck, which had been left at idle, showing a SPA FP reading of -11 psi's. My initial reaction was that the SPA sender was just taking too much of a beating from the Cummins' vibration, obviously, if you read my previous posts, that was not the case. When I think back now, I was seeing erratic SPA redaings for about 1 week before the Mallory died. My @ idle readings would sometimes vary from 12 psi's to 3 to 17 to 0 to... . Again, I thought it was a sender issue, man was I wrong. If nothing else, good reason to have a FP gauge as I'm sure that it probably saved my VP44.



Scott W.

 

[Powder Extreme]

YEAH! you definitely gotta love that gauge! I don't see how low voltage (12. ~really isn't low) could damage your pump. I've done quite abit with wiring/electronics if you had an amperage problem it should have caused burnt wires or the sort before it damaged your electric motor. The motor will try to draw more than the wire can supply it shouldn't hurt the motor not being able to draw the power, only fry the wire.



One other thing I've theorized on: if Mallory recommends a pre filter for their pump, should the Carter have one as well? Could this be part of the failures?



Jerry

 

[Bigsaint]

That was my first thought as well, if the motor wants amps. , it will draw what it needs at the expense of either blow fuses or burnt wire. I took the advice of the majority here and figured that the relay was cheap insurance, as I still don't know what happened to mine, but I thought the relay would, at the least, remove one area of doubt to the new pumps life expectancy.



Good question on a pre-filter for the Carter. I believe that it is a 'vaned' pump, is this correct ? Would a 'vaned' pump be more prone to wear/jamming from debris than a gerator type pump ? I don't know but would say that it couldn't hurt anything to put one, especially if you are going to move the Carter pump anyhoo. When I had my Mallory apart, I did notice that the tolerances on the gerator were fairly tight.



Scott W.

 

[Bigsaint]

The results of my short story, titled "The death of a Mallory 4150", can be found below... film @ 2300



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=172811#post172811



Scott W.

 

[John Berger]

Back to the top

back to the top

 

[Mopar-muscle]

got an hour to kill ...

thought i would just drag this back up incase someone has a hour or so to kill reading it ... ...

 

[Un-Hemi]

John, you're much too kind!

 

[David_VT]

MM, I need to chat with you!

I missed this thread somehow. . . Must have been sleeping. .



Great stuff and well worth the insomnia tonight...







I always wondered about accelleration and how the lift pump was pulling against it. If pushing from the tank, it would seem to be less of a problem. (if it is at all??) In the pushing senerio you would think that the line between the pump and the VP44 would act as more of a pressurized storage tank than the 6 inches in the stock setup.



I finally taught myself how to use this JD clutch and now enjoy pushing the power envelope with my relatively conservative setup. (DD1,hotPE)



Only on hotPE level 3 and under hard accel do I get a stumble which I had wondered might be the wastegate. I've installed the bigger banjos but that is it. Sounds like MM's work suggests just moving the OEM to the tank and that's really it for my power level.



================

In my 6. 2GM diesel plowtruck I added a simple bellows style NAPA pump mounted at the tank which I use to help start the truck and then shutoff (plugged into the lighter socket). I would love to find one of those with enough flow rate for the Ram. When off, this style pump offers no significant restriction to flow and thus might be a nice secondary pump to add at the fuel tank for the minimal boosted owner. .

 

[Diesel Freak]

FWIW, I am going to use a system with one pump located by the tank, and a regulator between the VP44 and the fuel filter set to deliver 12 psi of fuel to the VP44 at all times.

 

[JR2]

Back to the top for the new guys.....

 

[cscott]

I have done some research on fuel pumps for race cars and street rods, I am only just getting into diesel trucks.



I have never been satisfied with the claims of either Holley, BG or Mallory. First off they all say not for continous use, i. e. street. They also have a limited warranty.



I have found what I think to be an excelent pump. It is a Products Engineering PE4100. It is a 7 vane pump that can lift over 18 inches. Also being 7 vane it is self priming. It is rated at 270 GPH and internally regulated at 14-16 PSI. It is designed for continous duty and has a 2 year warranty. With the preset there is no need to use a regulator. It has -8 AN inlet and outlets.



I spoke with the designer of the pump and he said there would be no problem with using this pump in this application and it would not require a pre-filter infront of the pump. They test thier pump with diesel in the plant.



He said as with any electric pump it needs to be as close to the tank as possible.



I know few of you have ever heard of Product Engineering but they are big in the drag racing world and have benn arround for a number of years. They just don't advertise.



They have a web site www.productengr.com





I have ordered one for my truck and will let you know how it works out.

 

[JR2]

That is one heck of a flow rate for our trucks... . maybe too high, but I would have to defer to someone with a bit more experience to be sure... .

 

[Bigsaint]

My biggest question is whether that pump will survive being beaten to death without a return regulator. 14-16 psi's sounds okay to me. I checked that link and couldn't find the PE4100, the closest I found was the PE4300, rated at 20-22 psi's/270 GPH ???



Good info, regardless. Please keep us posted. A pump with a 2 year warranty would sure fit my bill.



Scott W.