Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) pumps, lines & whatnot

[csutton7]

there are a few of us trying to hash this thing out as to what is the best setup for our trucks at the different power levels. What do we want--I'd say a pump that doesn't lose more than 2-3 psi at WOT or at least doesn't drop to less than 10 psi. A pump that will last. An upgrade that's relativley easy. Now so far we are running kind of loose trying to figure this out and most of the info we get is based on gas setups and we're trying to adapt to these as we go, as not to many people can tell us what we need to do. So I'm going to put in some of my findings to date and others can add as needed or correct me if needed--

1) the pump: to relocate or not--I say yes to relocate as electric pumps are better pushers than suckers--when I replaced my stock pump with a Holley 815 the psi at WOT was only 1 psi better(3psi), so I think the pump needs to be by the tank---but if your pump is working good then leave it and then decide later when it dies

1a) electric pumps like to be gravity fed--Mopar Muscle will have a lot to say here as he & Bill K are the forerunners here, but again this is a very smart option, I believe--downside is if you come out the bottom of the tank you may need to fabricate some sort of skid plate to protect it--but your pump will be very happy---if you come out the side you're losing tank capacity-but your pump will still be happy

1c) I think a gerotor pump would be a better fit than a sliding vane--diesel is an oil where gas is more like water--which one will be harder to move--diesel--which pump is stronger--I think the gerotor style

2) drill out the banjo's or install -6 lines in their place--this is a proven winner in my eyes

that should take care of the stock to mildly bombed and maybe even a little more--

volume vs. pressure

what would you rather have? me volume with a lower pressure as long as it didn't drop more than 2-3psi in the best world volume with a psi of 13-15--nothing less than 10psi under all conditions with the bigger lines

1) Or I should say volume with a return system. When the VP44 asks for fuel it sucks the pressure down(stock system) and whatever the psi is at the lowest point(1 to 4psi)-although it doesn't stay there long, it can't be enough fuel to keep the VP cool until it catches up is my thinking, so a bigger line insures fuel to cool and if the pressure can stay up all the better--now you may not have to use a regulator as we have a bypass built into our system, but if you've got big lines and lots of pressure I think this is a smart option---as Mopar Muscle said in another post the DODGE boys did their homework on the system so if he's referring to the VP44 and its return I agree, but I don't think we should overload the VP44 as this could cause problems and make your lift pump work harder than necessary, also.

2) the stock 3/8"s line is, per my conversation with a Mallory pump engineer, generally thought of as capable up to 500 hp. Of course we're talking gas here so with diesel I'm not to sure as it's harder to move, so I think -8AN or 1/2" is smart--do you need to? Well that's your decision, but I think it's still smart and as I said above you may need to use the regulator.

3) Regulators--where to put them?? Well since my BG pump failed and I had my regulator next to the pump I'm not so sure that's the place to put it. I'm not totally convinced of this, but I'm going to move mine(if I need it) to either right before my filter/heater, if the pressure is to high for the filter or I'll put it at the VP44, but only again if the pressure is to high and maybe in both places, but I doubt this would be necessary unless you want to run a lot of pressure thru the filter so you've got an abudance at the VP. You might be jeopardizing your filter though.

which pump???

I'm not sure what the answer is to this.

1) the stock Carter--I don't think so, but if your pump is running good and you're happy leave it in until it dies or if you have the desire to change it out change it

2) Holley 815-it can't keep up with the VP44 is my experience--1st off in the stock location with just the EZ pressure drop to 2-3psi at WOT and even when I did the -6 upgrade from pump to VP it still did the same--now that I've moved it back by the tank it still drops to below 5psi at WOT with EZ and DDIII's, if I turn on the PE box it doesn't have a chance--other than that it will only drop 4 psi and usually stays around 10-11 psi if driving normally----other guys have had better luck but not me

3) BG220HR--I'm disappointed in this pump as I thought it would do the trick, but it lasted 2 months--it worked good, but I was never able to test it completely as my EGT's would soar with my stock turbo--maybe it was the regulator placement or that it wasn't gravity fed--if I tally up the BG tech people that I know have commented on this pump and diesel it's 3 against their pump and 1 for and 1 who wouldn't commit--so it's your decision on this pump, but I'd gravity feed it for sure and relocate the regulator to where you see fit, but remember it is an in & out regulator and shouldn't be used as I did even though it has 3 ports. And don't use the regulator off the BG220PS!!!! Chad Sheets and BLKDEMON are using this pump and only time will tell if it will hold up in their plumbing system. It is a sliding vane style pump.

4) Mallory 4150/4140---gerotor style pump has been used for at least a year in HVAC's truck(daily driver) with pretty good results--others will have to weigh in here to give their accounts

5) Summit's own pump--ARTICAT fill us in

6) Carter's high pressure pump--MOPAR MUSCLE fill us in

7) If I left a pump out add on---


sorry for the long post, but it's been awhile and we always said we'd summarize so I'm semi-summarizing----please add to this----chris







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chris sutton
1999 2500 24v qcab longbed 4x4 red sport w/ all the options 'cept plow pkg, 4:10 detroit locker in rear & front ARB,
5" skyjacker lift w/ 35" BFG MT's on 16. 5x9. 75 Weld rims, black smittybilt step bars, black 3 pc. bug persuader,
black lumber rack, camel leather int. w/ mb quartz spkrs and JL Audio twin 10"sub stealth box under rear seat , PE EZ, DTT vb & tc, mag hy-tec transmission pan,
red magview diff covers front & back, SPA pyro/boost&fuel pres/oil temp on "A" pillar,psychotty,back to a Holley lift pump,-08 fuel lines all the way to the VP44 then -6 fitting @ VP44, top secret fuel filter ,separate return line, JRE 1/2" fuel pickup, DDIII's, Jardine 4" exhaust,ATS manifold, hot,hot Power Edge & red L&L ladder bars, red valve cover--the above is a big fat lie I really own a totally stock RAM

 

[Bigsaint]

Good post Chris !!! I'll weigh in with my limited experience with the Mallory 4150. The pump is located just forward of the tank and I have a sediment filter installed, pre-Mallory, to catch any "heavy stuff" from the tank. It's not really a filter per-say, more like an enlongated bowel that would allow the sediment to fall to the bottom of same. The Carter pump was removed and the "hot" wire was run to the Mallory. At the Mallory's position, the send and return lines were cut and spliced in with rubber fuel line. The send and return lines at the Carter's original postion were also "re-spliced" with rubber fuel line. My banjo bolts and the rest of the system are still stock. The Mallory is set to provide 12 psi's at idle, but could be bumped up to 15 psi's at idle, according to HVAC. Actually, my SPA gauge reads 12-13 at idle with the clutch in, clutch out it's a solid 12. At WOT, with the mods. listed in my sig. line, I see no lower than 7-8 psi's and the Mallory seems to catch up after a initial low and with the same throttle pressure while maintaining the same rpm's, to perhaps 9 or usually 10 psi's. I am sure that a heavy fueling box would lower my psi's somewhat and I will be trying out another soon and will post the results. The Mallory was put in by Mike at A. W. D. (not a plug, just want to give credit where it's due), while in his shop for the McLeod install. With the same mods. listed and the stock Carter, my truck was seeing 4-5 at idle and 0 at WOT. Hope this helps you !!!

Scott W.

White 2001. 5 3500 ETH/DEE 4X4 Quad cab SLT,tow package and camper prep,Husky liners front and rear,DiPricol pyro,boost and oil temp gauges,SPA fuel pressure and temp. gauge,Edge EZ,Psychotty air,Bully Dog stage III injectors,ATS 3 piece manifold,HX40 turbo,4" BD exhaust,4" BD E-brake,McLeod clutch,Mallory 4150 lift pump,Mag-Hytec rear,Go-Rhino grill guard,Lund bug shield,PM tractor utility back up lights,Penda bed mat and blow by bottle is bye bye !!! I love the smell of diesel in the morning, it reminds me of... . VICTORY !!!
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1231655&a=9089608" TARGET=_blank><font color=red>My Truck</font></A>
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1231655&a=9089604" TARGET=_blank><font color=red>THE SAINTS</font></A>

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Here is my take on this situation,

What exactly is pressure?
Lets say you have a 45 gallon tank full of fuel, and you take a pump and you pump the fuel into another 45gallon drum,you have one hose going to the pump from the full tank, and you have another hose going into the drum you are pumping into.

What is your pressure?

If your pressure is zero, what does that mean?

Pressure is a restriction to flow.

The higher the pressure the greater the resistance to flow.

Lets say you have a pump capable of freeflow of 100gallons per hour, and you tested it and you verify that yes it actually does flow 100 gallons per hour, now keep in mind this is all done with 3/8" line, and you increase the output line to 1/2" line and you still flow 100gallons per hour,do you need the bigger line?

How much fuel does your Dodge Cummins Diesel need?

Lets say for the sake of arguement , you are a complete lunatic, as your truck is so bombed that you only get 6mph, say you are travelling 60mph, how much fuel do you need?

How much fuel do you need at 100mph?

Say you bought a pump that flows 200 gallons per hour, how much fuel are you using?

Will this pump live longer than a pump designed to pump 100gallons per hour?

I have done a fair amount of testing, but i wont share my results with Mopar Muscle, i challenged him to prove me wrong, he has access to all my test equiptment, including my flow meter, i have left the inlet of my fuel tank oem, i have also added a bulk head fitting to the bottom of my tank, i provided him with 1/2" lines , and 1/4" lines, he will share his findings with you all in a few days . Testing with a pressure gauge just wont be accurate to determine which is the best system if you believe that pressure is a resistance to flow.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[mikel]

Hey guys,

Can anyone tell me how much current flow the stock pump pulls? I want to change out my pump and if I can, just power it from the wires that already power the stock pump, but I have no desire to burn out whatever drives the stock pump. BTW, What drives the stock pump? The ECM, a relay somewhere, or something else? Anyone know how much current is safe to pull from this circuit?

Thanks,
Mike

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'99 QC 2500 SLT Driftwood 2wd SB 24v Auto 3. 55 LSD
ISSPRO boost and pyrometer, Autometer 3 gauge replacement pillar, Walker 24168, DTT VB
'00 Durango SLT 360, 3. 55, Patriot Blue
-- email address removed --
Howdy Agg's!

 

[Mopar-muscle]

bill , thanks for throwing me under the bus ... . #ad


as time permits ( i'm here for trans training and the fuel system was not on the agenda)i will be doing testing with a flow meter as bill stated to see just what is happening , we ( bill does i presume) don't know whats flowing where .

i brought the prime loc debate back to the top , read what billw , vaughn and rattlin had to say , the answer is there , in a quest for bigger is better we are overlooking the facts .

 

[csutton7]

Mikel---run the stock wire to a relay and then to your new pump then you'll have no problem---

Big Saint--thanks for the info and update when you can

Bill--I see your point and it's right--you only need a pump that's big enough to supply the fuel amount needed--and the line size to handle it too---now finding that pump & line size that will do it under all conditions with a bombed truck is what I think we're all after---have we found the right combo--maybe you have, but I'm still searching---it will be interesting to see what MM finds out, but I'm pretty sure it will corraborate your findings---thanks for chiming in--

Mopar Muscle-read the post last night that brought back up--very interesting--hurry up #ad


I will add that the stock system is setup well for a gas system(except for the location of the pump and how it's fed)--up to 500 hp, but we are dealing with diesel and I think this changes things--maybe it doesn't, but I think it does. How much is what I don't know. But if we can find a pump that will work with the stock lines and give us everything we need then end of story---

another point is that maybe we don't need a bigger pump--but the gas guys sure use monster pumps and then return the excess to the tank, so why wouldn't we??? Now I'm comparing gas to our system, but I think that's what we need to do to iron out the bugs----chris

[This message has been edited by csutton7 (edited 04-24-2001). ]

 

[Mopar-muscle]

chris , where's your 500 hp figure , engine or rear wheels ?

i made 370 on the dyno , TC unlocked ( 91%) and on a dyno that was not capable of simulating a big enough load , everyone was down on power that day . my real figure is closer to 420 , with carter HP in stock location no less than 6 psi at WOT , and this is same on the road , i think i have more than enough volume with this setup , for the DD3's , some psi is better than nothing ... .

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 04-24-2001). ]

 

[TXRam]

Man, you guys have spent alot of time working on this stuff - I, and many others, really appreciate it!

Let me throw out some of my opinions on the subject (I am an engineer, and have been dealing with fluid flow quite a bit for about 8 years). I know everyone keeps talking about pressures, and how much they drop at WOT, but, like Bill said, it all has to do with flow. BUT, pressure is an indication of flow - in the refining, chemical, and any other industries dealing with flow, the most common way of measuring flow is by measuring pressure upstream and downstream of an orifice - the higher the difference in pressure, the higher the flow through the orifice. Think about this, a garden hose has 30+psi at one end and zero at the other end (zero being atmospheric/gauge pressure, not "absolute" pressure). If you put your thumb over the end, then there is more than zero pressure at that end, and there is less flow.

Now that I've rambled on about pressure and flow relationships, let's apply this to our trucks. First of all, the pressure, for these purposes, should be measured at the inlet to the VP44, not on the filter housing - there is "line loss" through all of the lines, banjos, filter, etc. Now, remember that garden hose - when it was at its greatest flow, there was zero pressure at the outlet. When you put any restriction in it (thumb or spray nozzle on the end), it reduces the amount of flow. Also, to get more flow out something would have to get the pressure at the outlet less than zero, in other words, it would have help by "pulling" the flow through the hose - this is what you want to prevent. Without knowing the specifics about the pump - diagrams of internals, etc. - I would really think that as long as the pressure is NEVER BELOW 1-2PSI AT THE INLET TO THE VP44, there should be no problems with the pump.

And here's why I say that. The problem that destroys most pumps when you "starve" them is called cavitation. Cavitation occurs when liquid vaporizes at the suction or on the intake stroke (when the pressure is at its lowest), and then the vapors condense EXTREMELY FAST once the pressure is increased (at the discharge or the discharge stroke). Why does this happen? There are 2 ways to boil any liquid, raise the temperature or LOWER THE PRESSURE. Pressure is what determines the boiling point of any liquid – increase pressure and the boiling point increases, decrease pressure and the boiling point decreases – with enough vacuum, water, gasoline, diesel, etc. will boil at atmospheric temperatures. When these vapors then condense or “collapse”, there is a tremendous amount of force associated with it – it will destroy anything if it takes place long enough – I’ve seen it many times. As long as the pressure at the suction of the VP44 is always above zero, it is never “pulling” on the fuel supply; therefore, there is no vacuum and it should not cavitate.

If anyone has a different understanding of what destroys these pumps or has any details on the VP44, please let me know. The more I can understand about the internals and/or the mechanism that destroys the pump, the more I can contribute to this effort.

 

[Blkdawdg]

Just like Chris said, I'm still using a BG220HR and it works great. I have pressure set at 14 psi at the injector pump and it never moves. Sorry to say this Chris, but I believe that it was regulator placement. I have been using mine without the regulator since I installed it and I just put the regulator on about 2 weeks ago. I put it on the upstream side of the filter housing using a T and plugging the P/O out of the regulator. The pump is working great.

However, I did have to remove ALL banjos in order to make my truck work properly. Everyone has probably read my post where I was bashing the blue box because it would NOT come on and stay on. It made my truck look like a rodeo bull and I was the clown trying to ride it. I called Chip @ Blue Chip and he said that the VP44 was telling the blue box that it didn't have enough fuel, and I proceeded to tell him that I had already drilled out the banjos so it should be getting more than enough fuel. So, I go to the Rio Grande Valley to visit my girlfriend's family on Easter weekend, and I notice a puddle of diesel right under the VP44 on the driveway. I grab a wrench and check the banjo and IT'S BROKEN! This is at 3:00 on the Sat. before Easter so of course nothing is open. I call around and the only thing that I can find to fix it is to get a 1/4 NPT 90 and tap the VP44. So that's what I did. I tapped the VP44 and the outlet of the filter housing. On the way home, I decided to see if the VP44 really wasn't getting enough fuel, and the truck took off like a rocket.

In conclusion, I think that the best thing to do about fuel lines would be to remove ALL banjos using the adapters that Chris has so courageously spent his money on and get rid of those puny stock fuel lines.

 

[Jetson]

I have the Carter HP pump by the tank. It runs 16psi, 12-13 WOT. I have stock banjos, but 2 of them were removed and replaced with rubber fuel line. I believe one reason I have a good strong pressure is due to the restrictions in the line. I would be happy to remove some restrictions for more flow since I have more than enough pressure. This was running a VA, 275's and a Power Edge on #2. With just the VA and 275's it runs 14psi WOT.

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99 2500 QC, LWB, 5spd, 3. 54 limited slip, Intense Blue, 275HP Injectors
Tow Lite trailer
96 KTM 360 EXC
99 Durango 4x4 360cid

 

[csutton7]

MM--I'm pretty sure it was engine

Bill--what line size??? if you're talking stock size then my common sense tells me the 14psi, but this pressure thing is crazy so I'll wait for TX Ram to reply to get the real answer---but we do know that the VP44 does return a lot of fuel back to the tank and the 5/16" line can handle it and a lot more according to my discussion with the Mallory engineer, but he did say if the pressure is to great at the VP44 inlet I should add a regulator---

TX RAM--thanks--very good info--

got to get some work done and waiting for the semi-truck of fittings to show up--yea I'm way overboard on money spent, but I'm frickin' determined now and I don't plan on stopping until I'm satisfied===R&D rules---chris

 

[TXRam]

Bill, my first guess would be that there would be no difference as far as longevity of the VP44, but if you know something I don't, please share (like how the VP44 works - I have heard lots of things, but I don't know what's true and what's not). I really need more info on the VP - it's really 2 pumps in one right?, how does each work?, at what point does the fuel get returned to the tank - from the inlet to the pump, in between the "two" pumps, or at the discharge of the "second" pump?, etc. , etc. Honestly, anyone that has any info, please let me know.

As far as the longevity of the lift pump, I would have to know the specifics about the pumps being used. Again, my guess would be that the pressure has little to do with it. The one that is pumping to 14psi is obviously a higher pressure pump to start with (to get the same amount of flow through a line, and get a higher pressure at the outlet end means the pressure at the inlet end has to be higher - sameline, same restrictions), or the pressure loss in the lines, filter, etc. has been reduced in the one that has the higher outlet pressure.

Also, there are a couple of posts on the thread regarding the Prime-loc and Injection pump failures (pg. 2 by Vaughn and Rattlin)that also has some very good info on pressure and flow.

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1999 2500 QC 4X4 LB Auto (DTT Upgraded), 4. 10LS, 275HP Injectors, PowerEdge, PowerEdge EZ, SPA Boost and EGT, K&N Air Filter, Magnaflow straight-thru muffler
NRA Member

[This message has been edited by TXRam (edited 04-24-2001). ]

 

[Todd T]

I'm green on this subject but after reading down i have a few things to add,
1. the pump that is worked he least will last the longest.
2. the gaser world uses pressure to assure them that as much fuel as possible gets through the injector while its open. we dont need pressure we are just feeding a compressor if you will.

I think TXRam has it pinned, you just need to insure that you are not starving the VP44, that doesnt mean you need to choke it with fuel just feed it.

also keep in mind that with the same pump it will carry more volume with a larger diameter pipe, and less pressure. i think the answer is larger tubing to the VP44 and a large enough pump to maintain that volume with little pressure loss. not high pressure and low volume.

------------------
Todd,
2001 Q-cab SB 4x4 5spd 3. 55's,PowerMax3 adj. , A pillar Boost/EGT,4" turboback exhaust,custom built aluminum airbox W/K&N-RE0860 through the cowl, and more to come...

[This message has been edited by Todd T (edited 04-24-2001). ]

 

[Straight6Jeff]

To throw another variable into the mix, a vane, gerotor, or any other mechanical pump moves fluid in such a way that it is not a constant stream, rather a pulse of medium (diesel, gas, water etc), followed by an area of lower pressure. Flow and pressure need to be in a balance.

Being in the bio-tech industry, have access to variable freq. strobes taht clearly show the pulses. Smokey Yunick (NASCAR extrordinair) has shown many times that fluids and mechanical items behave in such a way that it defies most common thoughts. He has a book that goes into oiling systems, fuel delivery, mec

 

[Jetson]

The lift pump fuel delivery curves show more volume capacity at lower pressures. Obviously our problem is that we only know how to measure pressure (easily at least), and we don't know the volume. It's difficult to measure volume at WOT.

 

[csutton7]

Todd T--my thinking exactly-problem is pressure is what's used for the guage thus making us pressure sensitive to monitor our fuel supply-if you will

V10Jeff--do you know of another pump out there that will combat the problem you've outlined that will work??? If not what we're using is what we have to make work unless you want to REDNECK it, as Brandon says, and mount a 55 gal drum on the top of your cab to gravity feed the VP44--in all seriousness though is there something else out there??

BLKDEMON--you may well be right that it was my regulator placement that toasted the BG--TED J. told me to put it there so I did, but like I said before we're floatin' in uncharted waters here so I'm not placing the blame on TED J. --we tried something and it failed---before you put the regulator on what pressure were you getting and with what lines??? The BG may still work, but I'm leary at the moment, I do have another in the garage and a couple of different pumps coming-I'm just trying to decide whether or not to gravity feed--probably will---

With the stock pickup do we know if the fuel falls back into the tank when you shut down or are we 100% primed all the time--just wondering cuz if the fuel falls back into the tank then everytime we start our trucks we're sucking some air which can't be good for the pumps----chris

 

[TXRam]

Chris, it stays primed all the time - that's why we have to re-prime after filter changes, changing fittings, etc.

 

[B. Gill]

does anyone know the pressure and volume capabilities of the stock pump?

 

[Todd T]

just a few facts that came from the Products/accesories thread;

recomended is 70% of fuel returned for proper lubing/cooling

14psi is popoff of stock return in tank.

so as i said we need high volume(large unrestricted lines with high GPH pumps) and low pressure (must sustain but not more than 14psi at WOT with same pressure at idle)

this will result in alot of returned fuel (which is a good thing) and enough for the demand of WOT and also maintain volume (70% returned remember that). as long as the return is unresricted it will flow the volume, without breaching the PSI limit.

[This message has been edited by Todd T (edited 04-24-2001). ]

 

[Blkdawdg]

I don't know what pressure I was getting before because my gauge on goes up to 16psi. Summit says that the pump will go up to 23 psi. Who knows?

I wasn't trying to rub anything in your face, Chris, about the regulator, so don't take it that way please. I'm in this experiment too, so it could have died on me too.

I have a constant 14 psi right now with 3/8" lines. I guess I should have gone to 1/2" or 9/16". Maybe I'll convert it over whenever I feel industrious again.