Pusher Pump Results.

[EMDDIESEL]

Here are the results of my fuel pump week of hell.



I replaced the stock lift pump on Thursday. After it was complete, my fuel pressure readings (Post filter) were as follows:



Idle: 14PSI

WOT: 9PSI



Installed the Pusher Pump today, then changed my fuel filter. The readings were as follows:



Idle: 22PSI

WOT: 14PSI



A substantial improvement. (A MAJOR hassle, but thats another story). Anyhow, its done and hopefully my lift pump problems are over with. Time will tell.



If anybody wants to do the same, here are the sources:



Pusher Pump Kit: www.enterpriseengine.com

Call them and tell them you want the Pusher pump kit.



I got my replacement lift pump from Cummins Metropower. The part number for the Lift Pump (For 01' trucks) is: 3990105.

The Banjo Sealing washers are part number: 3935171 You will need 4 of them. Good luck

 

[Evan A. Beck]

Sounds about right!



I installed one on a customer's truck about 10 months ago, and got the same readings. Truck ran awesome.

 

[Bigsaint]

EMD, those are great numbers, but I have to wonder and this is just thinking out loud, not trying to flame anyone, is there such a thing as too much psi's for the VP44 to handle ? 22 psi's @ idle is huge compared to stock. I realize that the VP44 has an internal bypass and I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong, that the bypass returns to the fuel to the tank at a set psi value.



With the Mallory 4150, which is set to provide 12-13 psi's @ idle ( it varys from 12-13 until warm, then stay's mostly at 13). At WOT, with no banjo bolts on the inbound fuel line, I can drag it down to 6 psi's on a real hard run, but that is only for an instant and then the Mallory seems to recover to 8 psi's while still in that WOT run. Normal cruising around town sees 10-11 psi's. This is with the EZ box and the showerhead injectors and the TST off, I haven't tried any WOT runs with the TST on as of yet.



Another question is to whether the pusher pump set up would benefit from the use of a return regulator. Personally, I'm in the process of adding a Mallory 4309 regulator to my system, to help increase the life expectancy of the 4150. I, too, would like to see psi's a bit higher @ WOT, but will wait to experiment with another pump after the return regulator goes in, seems they are almost mandatory with the gerator type pumps to help them to have a long life, what about the Carter vaned pumps, same or not ? Again, just thinking out loud and interested in what y'all may have to say.



Scott W.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

Good point Scott, i HOPE i want hurt the injection pump with too much pressure. Anybody know?

 

[Mopar-muscle]

yes thats too high , but will it hurt the VP44???

i'm going to find the old thread form april on lift pump , lines and what not , if its still around . i di alot of testing with a flow meter in the return line and got alot of interesting data , evryone read it , then tossed it aside , thats my take .



we increased pressure at the inlet to the VP44 by a couple of different means and saw NO INCREASE in return flow wit ha lo of 0 psi to a high of 5 psi . this tells me that the VP44 IS the restriction and will only allow a certian amount of fuel into it .



if you get a warm fuzzy feeling from having 20 psi at the inlet to the VP44 then do the pumps you added a favor and install a regulator and return the excess you are trying to ram into it back to the tank , i believe all the fuel swishing around in your pumps not going anywhere is just getting hot , not good .



how often are we at WOT with 3 , 4 , or 6 psi ????? is there really a point to having 20 plus psi and/or 220 gph when the stock fuel filter will only flow between 45 and 60 gph ?????? HELLO ??????

 

[BIG BOB]

Mopar-muscle,



Good to see you posting again, hadn't seen your post for a few months. We always appreciate your input.



I also have the Mallory 4150 no regulator.



Idle 12#



Cruising 10-11#



WOT never below 6#



That is with HX-40, Bully Dog III's , Hot #3 PE and EZ set on #2.



http://content.communities.msn.com/TheWhiteObsession/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=29

 

[MikeR]

There are some good points in the above posts. But aside from trying to feed a fire breathing engine, alot of guys are just trying to extend the life of the stock pump arrangement. How many times do we see guys with bone stock trucks have a lift pump die on them? Alot! It's great when these pumps are working, but they don't last anywhere near what they should. and alot of these guys are just trying to find a combo that lasts.



-Mike

 

[John Berger]

The thread - long but very informative

Mopar, I agree with your opinion. It seems as though the results you and Bill came up with just kind of faded into the mist, so here's the thread. Very good read for those of you who may have missed this.





https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11672&highlight=Flow+meter

 

[WestTN]

pump results

The VP44 pump has an internal bypass to dump the uneeded fuel. More precisely, it uses it for cooling. Any excess fuel will not 'run around' iside the pump causing excess heat. If there is nowhere for it to go it will not enter.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

In my research for a solution to my lift pump problems I talked with a D-C engineer and a Cummins engineer that are responsible for our engines and trucks. Both of them said that 22 psi was no problem for the VP44 (I'm seeing a max of 20 psi). They said the only problem you will have is if you have more than 7 psi when starting the engine that you may have a hard start problem. I have pointed out in my other thread that I do have a hard start problem if I start cranking the engine while the lift pumps are operating. I just wait the few seconds till they shut down and it fires right off.



Mopar, I for one have not forgotten your testing and results. However, MikeR is correct in that my main goal is improving the longevity of the lift pump/pumps. My lift pumps have been lasting between 6,000 and 15,000 miles. If I'm out on a long trip the last thing I want to do is have to change a lift pump in the middle of a vacation. Now that being said and not to knock your testing but when I was in Muncie my lift pump began to die on me (4th lift pump in 70,000 miles) and my fuel pressure was going down to 4 psi at WOT whereas it had been going down to 8 psi at WOT before that. It DEFINATELY made a difference in the performance of my truck even at 4 psi. It was producing less smoke (hence less power) and boost was down by 4 psi. Replaced the lift pump and the power was back.



After replacing my stock lift pump 4 times I am VERY sick of changing it (not to mention the cost). I've been monitoring the different solutions people have been trying for quite a while and have also been researching solutions for myself. As far as I know every aftermarket electric fuel pump setup that has been tried (BG, Mallory, Holley that I can think of off the top of my head) has had at least one failure. With the track history of what others have tried I was not ready to try any of those solutions. When I called Enterprise to ask if they had come up with any solutions they told me about their pusher pump setup. They've been putting these on trucks since January and have not had any failures since that time. They've personally installed them on about a dozen trucks and some of them are on hot shot rigs running mega miles. The response from every person they've installed one on (all bomb'd trucks I'm sure) has been that they've noticed better bottom end response.



My thinking in going with this setup was this:



1. I've replaced my stock lift pump 4 times in 70,000 miles (more like 50,000 actually, because that's how long I've had the truck - bought it used) - VERY sick of changing the pump.



2. When my last lift pump went to 4 psi I had a performance loss so I knew I wanted to keep my pressures up above that at WOT.



3. Checked with the engineers and they said the higher pressures wouldn't cause a problem (other than the possibility of the hard start problem).



4. VERY easy installation compared to other options out there. No need to change fuel lines, fittings, or anything.



5. It is an inexpensive solution - cost me about the same as a stock lift pump (I've already bought 3 of those, one was covered under warranty). Therefore if I just double the lifespan on the stock lift pump I've paid for the pusher pump setup. I'll know in another 20,000 miles if it'll pay off.



6. If it didn't work out it would be easy to remove it from the system, just remove the pump and put a piece of rubber hose in place of the pump.



7. After installation I also noticed better throttle response.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

So as long as i wait till the pumps stop, i will never have to worry about the hard start problem?.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

You shouldn't, it's working great for me.



-Steve

 

[John Berger]

Steve, I don't feel so concerned with my steady 16 psi now, which I can't seem to get below 13 psi at WOT. I will get a better test in a couple of weeks when I tow the trailer to Bristol. I am going to take the old lift pump as backup. I have not noticed any changes in throttle response or boost with the new pump, just the pressure readings. The performance of the truck has stayed the same. It never missed a beat with the old pump, even at WOT with a drop to 0-1 psi and it has not missed a beat since I put the new pump in. Both pumps were run with the EZ and 275's installed.

 

[Todd T]

Steve is dead on with his comments, I too have the pusher and I think he and I must have done them around the same time too (right after Muncie). the VP44's bypass is 14PSI popoff the unsed fuel returns to the tank as that,... returned.



I think from the sound of it EM used a 15PSI or higher pump as a pusher. I used a 9PSI pump as my pusher and it gives me

17@ idle and 12to13 @WOT but the most important thing to me was it gave me 4PSI more boost @WOT thats alot for a simple pump addition. it will now throw up, and hold, 37PSI and flash as high as 40PSI with the stock HX35.



just do as Steve said, wait for the pumps to cycle, and it will fire right up, with just a bit more crank time than stock.





WARNING: this message contains subliminal messages aimed at converting BIG Saint into a Carter fan.

 

[Jetson]

I removed the stock lift pump and added the high volume Carter HP pump by the tank about 6 months ago. Now I'm beginning to worry about it. It used to run 16 psi and 11 psi WOT. Now it's running 12-13 psi and 8 psi WOT. It quit completely once on the freeway, but decided to run after it cooled down. I decided that the ground wirw from the computer was not very good. When running I would get a little spark at the negative terminal when I touched a new ground to it. I have been running it off of soldered extensions to the original lift pump wires. It has been 3,000 miles since it quit completely, but now with the lower pressures I'm worried about it. I think I'm going to try the Summit pump next.

 

[EMDDIESEL]

As mentioned, i got my Pusher Pump from Eneterprise, so if it is a higher PSI then yours Todd, Enterprise must be using a different pump now. I am going to install Drilled out Banjo bolts next week, we will see what that does too.

 

[Bigsaint]

Carter, carter ,carter,carter,carter ,carter,carter, SLAP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mallory, mallory,mallory,mallory. DOH!!!!!!!!! You ALMOST got me on that one, Todd,



I have psi envy



Just for the record, I see nothing wrong with what you guys are doing with the pusher pump, My two concerns were, 1) will the foward pump act as a stoppage for fuel flow if it dies while the pusher remains alive, I believe that has been tested and the answer is no it will not block the fuel flow from the pusher and 2) would the higher psi's hurt the VP44 and again, the answer appears that it will not. My goal is to find a single pump that will do the job and have some longevity, hence the addition of the return regulator. I can't see how it would hurt anything to add the reg. and it will pave the pathway for me to experiment with different pumps in the future if the Mallory goes toes up again.



As for converting me to a Carter fan, well, since my original Carter is gone and I don't believe they have much to offer over what I have now, I doubt I will go back to them. At least the Mallory is rebuildable so if my 2nd one fails, I can send it back for the $50. 00 rebuild and plug in my first rebuilt Mallory as a back up.



There has to be a pump out there that will provide what we need and have longevity, it's just a matter of more R+D. I hope that you guys have found the answer for the Carter with the pusher pump and I truly wish y'all the best of luck with this set up. That's one of the reasons that I enjoy this site so much, we are all in it together and there is plenty of shared information to glean from just reading.



Happy Rammin !!!!



Scott W.

 

[RADdodge]

Who's using a primary fuel filter?

I've followed these threads on fuel pressure/volume with keen interest, and to me, the pusher pump solution Steve posted seems the way to go. However, the spec on the Carter clearly states that a fuel filter must be used before the pump (warranty). I don't see any fuel filters being used in any posts except by Bigsaint on his Mallory, and that was a gravity type setup (and you know what happened to his first pump). Anyway, there is only about 8"-9" of room between the truck bed and the bottom of the frame. I'm looking at a couple of Racor filters now. For the primary filter (first in line) either a 30 or 10 micron filter is recommended. These filters are water separators too with a drain petcock (also provisions for water in fuel sensor and pre-heater). I'm planning on using 3/8 steel and a tubing bender to form the fuel lines. I am also contemplating adding a tee on the pressure side back to the fuel filter using a check valve. This would allow the engine lift pump to pull fuel in the event that the pusher pump failed. Also, I'm mulling over how to let the lift pump pull around the pusher pump (via the check valve) at the 25% duty cycle and energize the pusher pump only at the 100% duty cycle. Any thoughts on this?

 

[SFord]

Big Saint are you running just the Mallory pump by itself? Also what is the need for two pumps. It seems to me that a good quality pump installed at the tank area would supply the needed fuel.

 

[Bigsaint]

Bruce, check out Big Bob's sig. He's running with a Racor filter pre-Mallory, looks like a pretty sweet set up. I no longer have the sediment bowl pre-filter, when the 2nd Mallory went in I upgraded to all braided S. S. lines and added a Earl's in line screen filter. Good for 5-6 GPM, yep that's minute and rated to filter down to 35 microns I believe (it's either 35 or 40, had a brain fart). The Mallory calls for a pre-filter that stops down to 40 microns. Your thinking is correct in my book, a pre-filter will not hurt and may extend the life of your lift pump, just be sure to pick one that will handle diesel and has a good flow rate.



SFord, yep, my Mallory is flying solo , but I keep the spare 4150 in my hip pocket as a back up. As I stated before, I agree 110 % with you on the single pump notion, it's just a matter of finding the right one, and there alot of them out there to R+D. I'm still riding the fence as to what will be next if this one dies, I like the price of the Summit pump @$99. 00 and it flows 140 gph at 18 psi's or so. I also like the Aeroquip pump that flows 150 gph and is rated @ 18-20 psi's. I am not yet convinced that bigger (meaning flow or gph) is better. Right now, I have the Mallory set at 12-13 psi's post filter at idle, can drag it down to 6 or so at WOT. Still in the comfort zone for me, but it's hard to loose the idea of higher psi's being better, even with the flow R+D Mopar Muscle and other's did. I console myself by thinking that lower psi's equal less of a restriction and more volume of fuel. As long as I don't have a stumble, and I've been there and done that, my thinking is that any positive FP psi's are good psi's, whether they are 2 or 22.



There are many more pumps to choose from, it's only a matter of time before one of us tries out a pump that stands the test of time. I still believe the Mallory 140 series pump is hard to beat right now, time will tell.



Scott W.