Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) pusher pump voids warranty

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Those of you running pusher pumps look in to a regulator and set it for 16psi, that is what the new lift pumps will do now. "



Pablo - very interesting info - I assume you mean the later upgraded pumps being used in latest Dodge trucks? What was the rating in PSI in the previous pumps, and how was the increase obtained - something as simple as a relief spring, or more involved - and were there any OTHER upgrades besides PSI delivery that hopefully will enhance pump life?

 

[Lsfarm]

Reason for lift pump

SEmerson: the reason for the lift pump is not just to provide positive pressure. The VP44 NEEDS extra fuel flowing through it and back to the tank. The extra fuel provides lubrication and cooling.



When Steve StL. and I jury rigged a fuel tank in the bed of his truck so it could be driven to a repair shop without the factory fuel tank. We quickly discovered that the fuel gets hot in a hurry.



The 5 gal tank rose from 55* to 105* in ten miles of sedate driving, with the ambient temp at 55*!!.



The excess pressure created by having two pumps, a pusher and the factory lift pump is not necessarily bad, nor good. I have no issues with starting or leaks.



The new factory lift pumps create 15-16 psi at idle, and about 12-14 psi at cruise. Dodge is FOS with a 12 psi spec, the manufacturer of the VP [Bosch] says 22-24psi will not cause any problems, and that extra is better than not enough.



Greg L The Noise Nazi

 

[DRR-24V]

AZ Cummins-Easy decision !

First, I don't think that dealer has a clue as to what the problem is. But you made out like a bandit. I would leave that pusher off till the warrantee dies after the warning they gave you.

 

[azcummins]

Drr-

That is the plan I think. Take of the pusher for another 24k miles and watch the lift pump. My lift pump has 30k miles on it so it might go soon, so I'll watch it closely.



I agree with LS though... I don't think 22 psi will cause any issues, but since the truck is still on their bill, I'll do what they say - for now.



On the other hand, I think my new vp-44 will last more than the 24k miles left on my warranty but why risk it for nearly $3k?

 

[P Madrid]

Gary KJ6Q, not exsactly sure what the main changes were, if we take one apart to inspect we get charge back from warranty once they receive the pump. I do know that the resistance in the motor has increase (more windings, stronger motor?) and at one point they remove a ck valve that kept coming apart. The other thing that is getting look at next to pressure is volume, under Cummins warranty. Pablo

 

[Lsfarm]

Playing Russian Roulette

AZCummins: I don't know how difficult it is to remove/install your pusher, but with your lift pump having 30K on it, it is only a matter of time til it dies.



If the lift pump dies when your fuel level is low, or you are out towing up a long grade, it is likely that the VP will be damaged also from being run dry.



VP's will live a long life if they are fed enough fuel, why risk starving it? Just keep your pusher installed, and expect another 100K at least from the VP44.



Just my opinion, but you have a new VP, why not protect it, we know that the factory lift pump is not up to the job.



Good luck with whatever you do.



Greg L, the Noise Nazi

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Pablo sez:



"Gary KJ6Q, not exsactly sure what the main changes were, if we take one apart to inspect we get charge back from warranty once they receive the pump. I do know that the resistance in the motor has increase (more windings, stronger motor?) and at one point they remove a ck valve that kept coming apart. The other thing that is getting look at next to pressure is volume, under Cummins warranty. "





Well, the primary act of more windings probably = more RPM, = higher pressure - AND more flow volume at the same time. All steps in the right direction... Seems there are fewer failures reported with the newest pumps - and I hope MY truck built 01/02 has one installed...

 

[1tuffram]

azcummins

May I ask who the dealer is?? PM me if you prefer not to post who the dealer is

 

[Texas Diesel]

Re: THEY CHANGED THEIR MINDS!!!

Originally posted by azcummins



They said the computer threw a code #1699 "Suspect Tampering" meaning they think someone has messed with my pump (I'm the only owner only running an EZ, I don't get that)

Any more info on this? Where was the code set?

 

[GTX]

My truck got it's 3rd injection pump by 48k miles. To answer DEZLPWR on whether the injection pumps die quickly or slowly, Both of mine died a slow and painful (to me) death. The first one would stumble and puke out white smoke when it was under power, it would run fine on flat ground but try to climb a hill and it would barely make it. The second had a hard start problem, if it sat over night it would take about 45 seconds of cranking to start the truck. It is also on its third lift pump and the pressure is fluctuating so it should die soon.

 

[amsoilman]

azcummins,

It simply amazes me how some of these dealers get out of line! If a warranty is void, it has to be done in writing!

It can not be void by a dealer, mechanic, or dealership owner! It must be done by the Manufacturer, and it has to be sent to you in writing! Oh, and one more thing. They, the manufacturer, have to prove what you done, did infact cause the part to fail! IF someone at the dealership tells you your warranty is void, tell them to put it in writing to you, and insist upon it. Then watch them back walk!

Public Law 93-637 Magnuson-Moss Warranty/Federal Trade Improvement Act 15-USC-2301



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[azcummins]

1tuff-

the dealer is cowboy dodge in Cheyenne, WY.



the code they said I threw supposively doesn't exist. When I thought about it, I thought it was dumb that I had to remove the pusher or the next pump is on me b/c as soon as they started the truck up with the new pump, the pusher would kick out its 22 psi and the code would be back. I could go take the pusher off today and the code would still be there.



Think I'll just leave the setup how it is as the TDR membership says it won't hurt a thing.

 

[wyosteve]

amsoilman--what you say is correct, BUT what is your suggestion when the truck is sitting broken down at the dealer and they refuse to fix it claiming the warranty is void. I know, SUE the SOB's, but that is not a realistic solution since it can cost as much or more to sue. In the meantime the owner is without a truck. In theory, they have to prove the mod. caused the problem, but where and when do they have to prove it? The customer is the one seeking service so they have him right by the short hairs. If the dealer refuses to honor the warranty, I think the only reasonable solution is to take the truck to a good Cummins mechanic, document the problem, pay to fix it and then launch a publicity campaign against the dealer and Chrysler. (or buy a Ford) Not meaning to flame you here, but just presenting the realistic side in my opinion.

 

[A Johnson]

AZ,Some place,somewhere, someone on this board said that they could tell if you were running a aftermarket box by looking at some recorded value in the ECM it was not a fault code at that time. Cummins is always updating the fault codes available via the software calibration. An anti- tampering code that didn't exist last month may exist on this months software and will not neccesarily be in any printed literature. I would think that the EZ box is what threw the code and not the pusher pump as I don't believe there is a way to measure inlet fuel pressure to the VP-44. But I'm sure they could measure supply voltage or return voltage on whatever wires these boxes plug into and program in a anti-tamper fault for any readings that are not normal. I have not done enough research on the aftermarket boxes to give a solid answer.

I do not think the pusher pump will hurt a thing and personally feel the dealer doesn't use good, thought out, mechanical logic in his answer to you ---- AJJ

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've heard pretty much the same as A Johnson sez above - which is ALSO why *I* assume the first time I install a box on my truck and start the engine, my warranty is GONE! And it's ALSO claimed that the resulting code set will NOT be erased by any known outside manuevering, such as disconnecting batteries, resetting the computer, etc...



If that's true, then the guys frantically disconnecting and removing power add-ons, and going thru endless drills to attempt to cover their BOMBing tracks are only wasting their time. That's ONE reason why, when I start power mods on mine, I assume and accept that:



I'm my OWN warranty staton...





If'n ya can't afford to PAY, don't PLAY!

 

[DEZLPWR]

Originally posted by A Johnson

I do not think the pusher pump will hurt a thing and personally feel the dealer doesn't use good, thought out, mechanical logic in his answer to you ---- AJJ

Ah, this is so nice to hear coming straight from the mouth of a Cummins mechanic! Oo.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Ah, this is so nice to hear coming straight from the mouth of a Cummins mechanic!"



YUP - fine, as long as *Johnson* is the one who is authorized to approve your service!



Had a long talk with MY local Dodge service manager - real nice guy at what SEEMS to be an excellent dealership - highly respected in this area - and after going thru all the relative known issues relevent to the LP and VP44, he congratulated me on my knowledge of the problem, and assured my that while DC had final authority in warranty issues where aftermarket stuff had been added, it was HIS intention and practice to bend over backwards to HELP the custome get better than average coverage in such cases...



I just hope he/they follow thru when/if that ever happens - as someone said here, talk's cheap...

 

[A Johnson]

I didn't intend to throw a gaunlet at anyone, Dealer or TDR member, or authorize any kind of aftermarket product. I just feel that if a person uses some common sense in their decisions we will all get along and everyone will be happy. Now that I thought about it a pusher pump could possibly cause some hard starting issues if it causes fuel pressure to be over 5 psi during cranking, so you see I hadn't thought it through myself and I probably should have kept my mouth shut.

Gary, I have read some of the other posts involving your arguments against trying to deceive the Dealers when a person has had a comp box installed. I agree with you totally. I was just hoping to add something of value to the conversation without bringing that up, and I'm not sure that I did. Also all fault codes are stored as inactive codes until they are erased by a service tool such as Insight or whatever the Dealers call their version.

To everyone else, here is my personal position and has nothing to do with Cummins: If you want to run a pusher pump be happy and do it. If a dealer can show that a pusher pump causes problems or he doesn't like it because the little white haired lady at the end of the STAR hotline who doesn't know the difference between a pusher pump and a back scratcher told him pusher pumps were bad, and to deny you warranty, then please realize that he is probably not going to get paid for all the hours that he has wrapped up troubleshooting your issue because you put something on your truck that his warranty authorization people do not like. Then his manager is on him like the wrath of God because now he has a bazzilion hours into a problem that he cannot get paid for because he slipped up and told someone he thought his customer was pretty smart and put a pusher pump on their truck, irregardless if it is causing a problem or not. Believe it or not Service managers are required to make a profit and most of them try to do it by keeping customers happy. This is not allways possible because people ( including me ) let their emotions and pride get in the way of effective communication.

It amazes me, and I'm not pointing fingers, how many people fail to read their warranties and then show up for warranty because they have the same problem their cousin Joe heard that Bob had, and the dealership in timbukto fixed them up better than new 45000 miles after warranty was over because by golly they are a dealership that appreciates people. My advice to everyone is read your warranties completly. Then when you go for service you can stand up righteously for your rights.

I really feel these discussions are are good way to help clear up misconceptions, and renew the thought process that goes into troubleshooting these engines. Believe me, just because a person works for a well known outfit, doesn't mean he allways says the correct things.

I will continue to post as I see fit and hope it helps someone, as this board has helped me rethink several issues.

Thanks to all for the lively conversation --AJJ

 

[lsenus]

How about the simple and obvious. Either put a delay timing box, like used for nitrous drag systems to activate the pusher pump after start up, or even cheaper, a switch on the dash to power the pusher after startup.

 

[DEZLPWR]

A Johnson

My pusher is relayed to the stock lift pump so I do not see over 5psi while cranking..... Shouldn't be a problem then, right?

22-23psi@ idle

19psi wot w/Comp on 5-5