Question, 2010 power

[AH64ID]

There is nothing in that comment that would preclude me from thinking there isn't tq management.

I have been doing some research and it seems even 2nd gens had tq management in 01-02 trucks.

Torque management is the main reason people often wonder how the higher rated HPCR feels slower than a mildy modded 12V, simple 12V's don't employ tq management.

 

[RVTRKN]

AH64ID, I know about torque management from a D/A 5spd, and it did have power in takeoff through all of the gears, torque management is controlled by the Alison to protect itself from harmful torque applied in a sudden acceleration causing the engine to detune until the alison can catch up with the throttle report. Example, doing 65MPH and wanting to pass, you punch the throttle and you just sit there and slowly speed up causing dangerous situations if you ask me, I had many headlights in my mirror that had to brake in a quick way. It is the trany,s ECM that does this. There is no ECM on the manual G56 and therefore it can't tell the engine what to do as well as the AAM axles. The ECM on the D/C is programed for its designed HP and smog related equipment/parameters, not to change its mind in the middle of acceleration. When I step on the throttle, its from start to finish, with what you refer to as torque management, is actually just detuned programing for my C&C, 305 HP and the updated less HP from the reflash. The DPF tells the ECM its time for regen through pressure dropping as the exhaust goes through the DPF and it responds as programed in the ECM. Its not torque management, its smog management, and you can thank EPA for that.

 

[HBarlow]

There is nothing in that comment that would preclude me from thinking there isn't tq management.

It's pretty hard to prove a negative.

I have been doing some research and it seems even 2nd gens had tq management in 01-02 trucks.

I've never seen the slightest suggestion that Dodge employs a torque management scheme. Where are you finding such information? I've owned both manual and automatic transmission trucks. Gen II, Gen III HPCR, and now ISB6. 7. Have never felt anything like torque management on any of the three. Have been around the TDR and TDR events since '01. Have read lots of posts, TDR magazines, and listened to lots of speakers. Have never heard a mention of torque management until you brought it up. It's going to take more than your opinion to convince me.

Torque management is the main reason people often wonder how the higher rated HPCR feels slower than a mildy modded 12V, simple 12V's don't employ tq management.

Ohh, where is your support for that statement?

 

[Missouri Mule]

If you press the go pedal down gradually I believe you could build speed faster( I try to do this with my Mule and Freightliner, it is hard not to floor the go pedal).

 

[Mikey-KE7LBB]

There IS torque management on my 09 with a g56 due to the DMF that we are blessed with because DC wants to limit warranty replacements of transmissions.

My Smarty on the lowest setting after deletes felt pretty close to the stock programming until I removed the torque management. After doing that, it felt closer in "go pedal" response to my 92!!

After so many transmission replacements on the Getrags, they used a smaller clutch and went with the the NV4500 in hopes that it would last longer and then upgraded to the NV5600 for the HO's with the same in mind. They did to some degree limit the tuning to protect both transmission and clutch when the CR's came out.

TQ management from DC's point of view makes sense to protect any potential "weak link" from being destroyed by extreme torque from the mighty Cummins!!

Lower gearing and different ECM tuning of a 305hp C&C with a FAR superior transmission will beat any 350hp "off the lot" truck any day!

 

[domehead]

First the only two management is in the dumfounded so when tnhe engine kicks back it can handle it. The reason I know is that I Have gone through two clutches and one fly wheel the dealer went over the complete truck with Mr and there was no tq in any of tnhe software if you are trying to figure why your truck with mods works different than before do not jump. To end point without hard data

At the present time your argument is base the set of the pants withheld no proofs

 

[RVTRKN]

There IS torque management on my 09 with a g56 due to the DMF that we are blessed with because DC wants to limit warranty replacements of transmissions.

My Smarty on the lowest setting after deletes felt pretty close to the stock programming until I removed the torque management. After doing that, it felt closer in "go pedal" response to my 92!!

After so many transmission replacements on the Getrags, they used a smaller clutch and went with the the NV4500 in hopes that it would last longer and then upgraded to the NV5600 for the HO's with the same in mind. They did to some degree limit the tuning to protect both transmission and clutch when the CR's came out.

TQ management from DC's point of view makes sense to protect any potential "weak link" from being destroyed by extreme torque from the mighty Cummins!!

Lower gearing and different ECM tuning of a 305hp C&C with a FAR superior transmission will beat any 350hp "off the lot" truck any day!

Well if "Mikey likes it", :-laf back to the conversation, it is in the programing of the ECM not torque management. With your delete kit you have only changed the ECM program. Can you explain how you removed the "Torque Management" from your ECM?

 

[AH64ID]

I've never seen the slightest suggestion that Dodge employs a torque management scheme. Where are you finding such information? I've owned both manual and automatic transmission trucks. Gen II, Gen III HPCR, and now ISB6. 7. Have never felt anything like torque management on any of the three. Have been around the TDR and TDR events since '01. Have read lots of posts, TDR magazines, and listened to lots of speakers. Have never heard a mention of torque management until you brought it up. It's going to take more than your opinion to convince me.

The 01-02 manuals did not employ tq management, just the auto's in 1st gear. If you look at the BD RAD box it talks about fully eliminating it.



If you haven't heard of tq management until this thread then you have been missing a lot of threads. Maybe there are fewer performance threads on TDR vs other sites, but its not a rare conversation by any means.



How do you know you haven't felt tq management? Have you driven a HPCR with it removed? You would know the difference then, its night and day different even on the mildest setting on the Jr (The Jr's most aggressive setting is the mildest on the Sr).

Ohh, where is your support for that statement?

Just from general conversations and casual reading over the last few years, on a stock P7100 AFC? as soon as 6psi is obtained the P7100 can full fuel, on a modded truck 6psi happens quick and it fuels as hard as possible.



I don't blame you for not trusting my opinion, but do some reading and you will see its used on our engines.

 

[HBarlow]

The source of your information seems to be entirely what you have read on aftermarket supplier's literature for magic black boxes for Dodge applications. That is hardly a reliable source of accurate information regarding Dodge ECM/PCM programming. Do you believe all advertising claims? I certainly don't.

I don't know if I will get a reply from either of the Cummins engineers I left messages with. I will continue trying to get a factual and accurate answer from Cummins.

 

[AH64ID]

My main source is AAM, who states the axle is only rated for 480 ft/lbs (I re-read my notes) and that they required tq management from the GM and the Dodge.

The rest of the data is supporting data.

 

[Wiredawg]

Harvey and others,



I haven't spoken to any factory reps or really read too much about the subject, however, I have always been of the opinion that my '02 and my '09 use torque mgt to protect the transmission/driveline. I realize we are referencing after market vendors in our comments, but they seem to be focused on it to help customers from damaging our equipment. I further speculate the tq mgt is tied to the speed sensor, but no hard facts to back it up other than my iterpretation of seat of the pants feel.



FYI, I finally broke down an bought a Smarty 6. 7 for my 09 4500 C&C primarily to change the governed speed from 76 mph to 90 mph. Because of vendor cautions of "modifying stock torque mgt," I have opted to only use the 03 setting (60 HP) based upon info that the Aisen is rated at approx 780 lbft of tq. The increased power and torque really feel good and have netted about a 1 mpg increase in mileage (hand calc'd). No problem w/ DPF loading, even with my short 6 mile trips back and forth to work. In fact, I have yet to be aware of DPF cleaning also. OEM manual says overhead notifies you and there is an audible signal. Never seen/heard it. Also, more in line w/ what Harvey says, I still manage tq with the go pedal too. I could be wrong and am not banking any money on being right, but just makes sense there is torque mgt.



I'm still interested in reading Harvey's feedback from Cummins to see what they say.



Have a good one, Wiredawg

 

[HBarlow]

Wiredawg,

Thanks for your comments. I have never been exposed to aftermarket programmers or their company literature so have never read any of that information.

You guys may very well be correct but I want to hear it from sources familiar with Cummins engine programming. I don't place much trust and confidence in advertising claims or information provided by aftermarket vendors selling products that they claim will correct or improve OEM factory products until I have seen it for myself.

I will keep trying to obtain an answer from Cummins and post a retraction if I learn I have been wrong.

 

[HBarlow]

Joe Donnelly replied to a pm I sent him. He says he thinks he remembers a Cummins rep told him at May Madness the Cummins is programmed to torque manage during automatic transmission shifts.

That makes sense to me and is not a big surprise. I only drove one or two 68RFE trucks before ordering a C&C and don't remember much about the pickup shifting. My Aisin might be using reduced torque during shifts because shifts are smooth.

When my '06 shifted under full throttle it sure didn't seem to be using torque management. It would loudly screech the tires on the one-two shift.

I will continue to pursue an answer from Cummins.

 

[AH64ID]

What you are talking about is commonly refereed to as shift de-fuel, and was standard from Dodge/Cummins on your 06 (Again aftermarket references), but is not the same as torque management.

 

[Wiredawg]

I may not have the correct definition of torque managment, because I'm applying it to the ECM fueling tables Cummins developed that matches inputs from boost, fueling, and other sensors that determines HP and trq. I read on the Cummins website under ECM where they talk about power mgt (HP &Trq curves?). Also, isn't detuning the engine a type of hp/torque mgt?



I'm in Mississippi for a cople of weeks and I don't have my dyno sheets w/ me, but I believe the graph DID NOT show high hp/torque in lower gears until upshifting and building, boost, wheel speed and engine rpm. Otherwise, shouldn't we just be able to apply throttle in first gear (auto or manual) and achieve max HP/Tq numbers versus building speed and upshifting?



Like I said before, it will be interesting to see what the "official" answer is. BTW, I love this type of threads.



Wiredawg

 

[RVTRKN]

I read on the Cummins website under ECM where they talk about power mgt (HP &Trq curves?). Also, isn't detuning the engine a type of hp/torque mgt? Like I said before, it will be interesting to see what the "official" answer is. BTW, I love this type of threads.



Wiredawg

Yes, I guess its sort of torque management, but under the ECM programing and unless you have a "Majic Black Box" it doesn't change. Its how they detune the 6. 7 for the C&C for instance, OK maybe torque management, but its the programing. Drive a D/A and punch the throttle while doing 65MPH with a little load, say 10K GVW, and you will understand true TM. But if you take the same truck and punch it through all gears, it screams down the road. It is why they are faster than our CTD's , but I don't want a fast truck I want a durable high torque towing machine. ECM programing is just that, a set program defined by the manufacture. Auto maybe different than my G56 C&C because it probably has ECM of its own, but my C&C only has one ECM. Not three, as it is claimed that the AAM axle and transmission as well as the engine ECM controls TM.

 

[AH64ID]

I don't think anything but the ECM would control the Tq management. The ECM has an input for vehicle speed input, as well as multiple trans inputs.

 

[Wiredawg]

RVTRKN,



I disagree there is a single tq setting in the ECM, but am doing so on mere theory and opinion. I believe there are fueling tables in the ECM that high limits are set so as to not exceed them, but not the lower ones. HP and Tq are related and are based upon the combination of sensor inputs. This may not be labled soley tq mgt, but I believe that is one of the outcomes accomplished.



I'll be happy to admit being wrong when suitable authority says the ECM does not manage tq (or power), but I cetainly believe it does. We'll see. Interesting to say the least.



Wiredawg

 

[HBarlow]

I spoke with one of the Cummins engineers today that I have spoken with in the past.

He told me he forwarded my name, e-mail address, and cell phone number to the appropriate Cummins engineer. He indicated he was confident I will receive an answer.

I will share anything I can learn.

 

[blmyachtsales]

Hbarlow, eagerly awaiting your findings from cummins. I pray there is something holding this truck back otherwise it is the least powerful cummins I have owned by a good margin (I have owned 4, both stick and auto, 2 hpcr). The power is also lacking where it is needed most, bellow 2000rpm. I pulled a 4500lb 23 pro line yesterday which should be a joke but had to wind the guts out of it to keep pulling in the next gear (up hill). I am a cummins fan but this is silly!