Question, 2010 power

[AH64ID]

Good info! I know that with my cam my oil appears "thinner" than the stock cam. I am a few K from a UOA, so I'll report back then.

 

[RVTRKN]

But it does it on all the HPCR's. And soot wasn't an issue in 03. It may be more pronounced in the 6. 7's, but they all have tq management.

Look at signature, I dissagree, my 04. 5 never did that. There is a delay in power, but that is turbo lag.

 

[matkinson6054]

Originially Posted by rscurtis

The limit on particulate emissions was the same from Jan. 1, 1994 until Dec 31, 2006. It is possible that the 305 engines polluted less than the standard, but as the NOX standards started to ramp down on Jan 1, 2004, the engines were tuned toward NOX reductions. This increased the PM emissions beyond the standards, which were then reduced with the CAT. That's why the 325 engines have the black oil.

I guess I dont understand. What does putting a cat/dpf in the exhaust have anything to do with the engine creating excess soot/fuel built up in the oil?

 

[AH64ID]

Look at signature, I dissagree, my 04. 5 never did that. There is a delay in power, but that is turbo lag.

I just don't think you noticed it as much, its very noticable. I can't pulls hills at 1975 rpms, but can pull them at 2025. I even have a dyno sheet somewhere that shows a jump at 2,000 rpms, and the turbo is fully lit. I also hit 30 psi of boost at about 1950 rpms, and the ECM goes to full fuel mode at about 22-24 psi so the ECM fuels as hard as it will let it from about 1600 up for me.



Did you ever have a tuner on your 04. 5 that reduced tq management? If not then its harder to imagine, but drive one once and you'll know its there.

 

[rscurtis]

Originially Posted by rscurtis





I guess I dont understand. What does putting a cat/dpf in the exhaust have anything to do with the engine creating excess soot/fuel built up in the oil?

They have nothing to do with excess soot. The excess soot on the "600" engine comes from the third injection event and the cam that is timed for "in cylinder" EGR. The soot on the 6. 7 comes from that AND even more EGR. The cat on the '04. 5-'07 trucks helped clean up the soot, and when the standards were reduced by a factor of 10 on Jan 1, 2007, the DPF became necessary.



The '03 and '04 engines had looser NOX standards, that's why they were tuned to run clean and give better FE than their successors.

 

[AH64ID]

All HPCR 5. 9's have the same cam grind, the cam in conjunction with the 3rd event and piston design is what completed the in-cylinder EGR on 04. 5-07.

 

[matkinson6054]

Ok that makes more sense.

 

[RVTRKN]

I just don't think you noticed it as much, its very noticable. I can't pulls hills at 1975 rpms, but can pull them at 2025. I even have a dyno sheet somewhere that shows a jump at 2,000 rpms, and the turbo is fully lit. I also hit 30 psi of boost at about 1950 rpms, and the ECM goes to full fuel mode at about 22-24 psi so the ECM fuels as hard as it will let it from about 1600 up for me.



Did you ever have a tuner on your 04. 5 that reduced tq management? If not then its harder to imagine, but drive one once and you'll know its there.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. There is no comparison in the bump past the 2K RPM range I experience with my 6. 7 WHEN IN REGEN Also it didn't do that until the reflash, I know what your point is, but that is not what I'm referring to. When in regen at 1950 RPM and 2050 are night and day. Also it lost some power in the lower RPM range. Yes, I know the 5. 9 or the 6. 7 can handle a lot more power, but I don't look at it as torque management, more like D/C trying to keep a fine balance between reliability and performance. Compare it to a gasser, you can add a lot more performance to stock configuration, the imagination can be expensive, do you call it torque management or just production keeping the costs down.



Yes, I agree there is more power to gain by adding performance enhancing equipment/chips, but to call it torque management is ridiculous.

 

[Zak Smith]

Here's what H&S Performance just posted over on cumminsforum
6. 8. 12 update for Maxx tuners - Page 2 - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum

The G56 trucks have a torque management that holds up power in the lower RPM ranges, but we will soon have a tune to take care of that as well.

Take that FWIW.

 

[Hummin Cummins]

That explains alot

 

[Wiredawg]

All,



Lets take it up a notch... since there is not agreement on calling it torque mgt, let's call it what it really is... power mgt. When the combination of detuning, Regen, RPM, timing, air mass/temp, boost, RPM, speed, EGT, collant temp, transmission sensor, throttle position (other inputs?) affect power, and it is documented there are matrix tables in the program that determine power, what do you think is happening? There is way more going on here than foot pressure on the throttle and gear you are in.



We really need to take note these vehicles have strong computer processors capable of recieving, assessing inputs, adjusiting settings and managing power hundreds of times per second. These motors do not operate on a linear power curve that has no or few varialbles. Folks, it all about technology making it happen.

Wiredawg.

 

[RVTRKN]

I can go with that explanation, the POWER is controlled, but not for torque management, but for soot control. The only CTD's that are not electronically controlled, are the 12 Valves. The 24 Valves from 98. 5 on to present day have slowly increased the POWER management through electronics. The 12 Valves are controlled through mechanical means, but they manage the power as well. You can get mechanical devises to increase their power like you can get XXX programmers to increase the power on the modern CTD. Bottom line is, every engine made has the potential for more power to be extracted from the stock form, that goes beyond proven/tested reliability.

 

[AH64ID]

I can go with that explanation, the POWER is controlled, but not for torque management, but for soot control. The only CTD's that are not electronically controlled, are the 12 Valves. The 24 Valves from 98. 5 on to present day have slowly increased the POWER management through electronics. The 12 Valves are controlled through mechanical means, but they manage the power as well. You can get mechanical devises to increase their power like you can get XXX programmers to increase the power on the modern CTD. Bottom line is, every engine made has the potential for more power to be extracted from the stock form, that goes beyond proven/tested reliability.

Why differentiate between tq and power? Tq is power. I can tell you that 99% of tq management is for driveability, if you had full power it would be too hard to control for 99% of drivers and driving, and the drivetrain wouldn't last as long. Soot control might be a small part of it, but its not the main reason, the driveline to support 650 ft/lbs multiplied thru a trans doesn't exist in a LD truck.

 

[HBarlow]

You're getting a bit carried away with your opinion about torque management.

The earlier trucks, an '01 HO six speed for example, did not have an ECM or PCM capable of torque management as you call it and was factory rated at 505 ft. lbs.

A very large percentage of them were modified to produce 400 hp and up and as much as 700 ft. lbs. of torque and the drivetrain held up very well.

My '01 HO six speed had 275 hp RV injectors installed when it had only several thousand miles on it and still has them at 353k miles. With those injectors the engine ]produces about 275 hp on a dyno and around 550 tq.

Many owners also added electronic boxes plus many other mods. Many current TDR members are still driving highly modified 24 valve trucks with six speed NV-5600 transmissions. Many are probably producing 650 or more tq and towing heavy trailers.

I can't prove the new ISB6. 7 engines don't use torque management, Cummins won't comment. The engine probably does use it during automatic transmission shifts, but I am still doubtful of torque management at launch.

 

[AClayton]

You're getting a bit carried away with your opinion about torque management.



The earlier trucks, an '01 HO six speed for example, did not have an ECM or PCM capable of torque management as you call it and was factory rated at 505 ft. lbs.



A very large percentage of them were modified to produce 400 hp and up and as much as 700 ft. lbs. of torque and the drivetrain held up very well.



My '01 HO six speed had 275 hp RV injectors installed when it had only several thousand miles on it and still has them at 353k miles. With those injectors the engine ]produces about 275 hp on a dyno and around 550 tq.



Many owners also added electronic boxes plus many other mods. Many current TDR members are still driving highly modified 24 valve trucks with six speed NV-5600 transmissions. Many are probably producing 650 or more tq and towing heavy trailers.



I can't prove the new ISB6. 7 engines don't use torque management, Cummins won't comment. The engine probably does use it during automatic transmission shifts, but I am still doubtful of torque management at launch.

I really don't want to jump in on the torque management vs. smoke control arguement, but my 01' - without the Smarty, will 'detune' right before the auto transmission upshifts. You can hear the change in the way the engine is running right before it upshifts and after the shift, it returns to normal. The stock TC was very weak and the lock-up clutch didn't have enough holding power for the Cummins. I could deal with the detuning during upshifts but on the highways and going up hills with a load, the ECM would always unlock the TC when too much torque was applied by your right foot. Then the Cummins would spin to 2500rpm's or more and the transmission would warm up fast! That is why I got the lock-up controller!!



I am sure glad Dodge got it right with the new 6spd auto, because the old 47 and 48re's really cannot take the Cummins' brutish torque.



Anyway... ... . one could easily argue that torque management is the culprit for detuning during upshifts. Torque management is the reason the ECM unlocks the TC when climbing hills loaded. Smoke control and emmisions are things my 2nd Gen truck has, but not as prevelant as the newer trucks. Without the Smarty, it is much harder to 'make' the truck smoke. I think my truck defuels until a certain boost measurement is met... ... ... and after that, it takes off! With the Smarty, it is much easier to fuel the engine and load the powertrain.



Smarty is the only 'magic box' I have... ..... I use it for eliminating all the above stated hiccups my truck has.



@Harvey - I think that if you modded your 2nd gen with a Smarty and only a Smarty, you would have not required/wanted your RV 275's. Although, the injectors coupled with the Smarty would have been even better yet. The timing on our trucks is limited to the drivetrains ability to transfer torque. The Smarty is an upgrade for these trucks and NOT a magic box... . as you call them! However, I do agree with you on the many 'magic boxes' on the market that simply overfuel and overtime the Cummins to the point of burning them up.



Alan

 

[AH64ID]

HBarlow, I am sorry you find all the info doubtful despite lots of evidence on other forums. I am not sure if you don't visit them, or just discount anything you didn't type.

I have given you the tq limit from the axle mfgr, which is lower than just about every engine that has been put in-front of it.

Keep working your Cummins contact, but apparently they lack the desire to discuss the subject.

Your posts indicate you have zero experience with any form of modified tq management, so I am really still curious how you can accurately discount it.

As far as management at launch, have you ever seen full boost in lower gears? I have had some heavy loads and even with modified management I can't obtain full boost until 4th gear speeds are obtained, and with 15K+ trailers there is time in 3rd gear to build all the power the ECM will allow for. Must be a detuned rating, but its not felt under acceleration due to tq multiplication of the gears.

 

[matkinson6054]

Well I dont understand what the big deal is. It can be (and probly is) any number of different things going on at once. You guys are trying to figure out whats going on inside a trucks computer that is programmed to do hundreds maybe even thousands of things every second to keep the truck running.



Seems like a pointless lost cause to try and figure it out when there is probly multiple answers to one question and nobody knows for sure.

 

[RVTRKN]

Well I dont understand what the big deal is. It can be (and probly is) any number of different things going on at once. You guys are trying to figure out whats going on inside a trucks computer that is programmed to do hundreds maybe even thousands of things every second to keep the truck running.



Seems like a pointless lost cause to try and figure it out when there is probly multiple answers to one question and nobody knows for sure.

Well said, If you don't like POWER management then buy a gasser and then spend the necessary money to increase the POWER after you purchase it, Its only money. Again, the manufactures control POWER output on any given engine, even the SRT's can produce more power, if your willing to spend a small fortune, after paying more than it's worth just to get one. Again, the manufactures produce an engine engineered to meet the standards of the industry, SOOT comes to mind, and produce an engine for reliability and meet the needs of the customer.

 

[PacificNorthwestRVers]

I've got the 3:42's, in high gear rpm is about the same as my 06 auto 1800 at 65mph whcich I am happy with. My original comment about power is directed more at the trucks overall feal. I always thought a manual would feel quicker and expected the truck to move with autority when you hit the go pedal.



Hi there Hbarlow, i pm'ed you a few weeks back re the st vs slt. As you can see I went with the ST and added the goodies that I wanted, very happy with that decision as it saved me thousands. Hopefully I get used to the truck.

The combination of 3. 42 axle and 35" tires makes for the equivalent of a 2. 91 rear axle. No wonder the truck is doggy.



Our last truck had 3. 73 gears and 35" tires and it was a pig compared to the two previous trucks running 3. 73 gears and 32" tires.

 

[AH64ID]

The combination of 3. 42 axle and 35" tires makes for the equivalent of a 2. 91 rear axle. No wonder the truck is doggy.

Its not quite as bad as a 2. 91. If they OE tires were 245's its 3. 00, and if they were 265' its about 3. 10's, but that combined with the extra 35lbs+ of tire will make a huge difference.