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Question for dzlpwr
- Thread starter jbolt
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Would that be a north american or south american swallow... . ??
And, what is your favourite color too...
I thought I'd be the only one old enough, or dumb enough to remember that movie/line... . good on ya bud...
Bob.
I'd guess 2x the mm3 required for 201 hp should = approximately 400 hp (assuming all of that extra fuel volume can be mated with the proper amount of air in the time provided in the stroke and turned into HP). 
Haven't got any further in the manual, the bathroom hasn't been open this afternoon. Everyone must have gone to Taco Bell or White Castle for lunch.
Maybe tomorrow.
PS... Don't know about the unladen swallow thing but I'd guess the air speed velocity would be slightly faster than a similarly sized laden swallow (unless they both were stuck to the front of Jay's truck and they would then be equal). I haven't downloaded the air swallow manual yet from SAE.
Haven't got any further in the manual, the bathroom hasn't been open this afternoon. Everyone must have gone to Taco Bell or White Castle for lunch.
Maybe tomorrow.
PS... Don't know about the unladen swallow thing but I'd guess the air speed velocity would be slightly faster than a similarly sized laden swallow (unless they both were stuck to the front of Jay's truck and they would then be equal). I haven't downloaded the air swallow manual yet from SAE.
LOL LOL :-laf :-laf ... the lunatics are running the asylum I see... .
:-laf :-laf
Bush.
:-laf :-laf
Bush.
:-laf Swallows stuck to Jay's grill
:-laf SAE air swallow manual
:-laf Unswallowed laden
This is getting good... .
As for the bosch book quoting the max power of the VE as 25KW/cyl... ... . that's obviously a large pile of horse poo. I'd venture to say that rating is for continuous duty.
In the quest for more fuel from the VE, let us not forget about reliability and longevity. Setting the pump to deliver more fuel will undoubtedly increase forces, stresses and wear on the pump. We who use our trucks for daily drivers may want to keep this in mind. That being said, RFI !!! Let her rip !!
Sean
:-laf SAE air swallow manual
:-laf Unswallowed laden
This is getting good... .
As for the bosch book quoting the max power of the VE as 25KW/cyl... ... . that's obviously a large pile of horse poo. I'd venture to say that rating is for continuous duty.
In the quest for more fuel from the VE, let us not forget about reliability and longevity. Setting the pump to deliver more fuel will undoubtedly increase forces, stresses and wear on the pump. We who use our trucks for daily drivers may want to keep this in mind. That being said, RFI !!! Let her rip !!
Sean
:-laf Boy give you guys an inch and you take a foot... .
Formula, I'm glad you mentioned the "reliability factor". That, to be truthfull, has long been one of my requirements for any mods I make. I too, use this truck for daily driving, around town, grocery runs, and occasional bouts of ludicrous behavior punishable by fines... .
I am pretty certain however, that it is do-able to reach a bit higher in HP, say 300 firm RWHP, and have a decent reliability factor.
Again, look at marks' numbers. I admit he pushed it hard, and ran the pump hard too, but that engine was in great shape when it came out, and is still running fine last I heard...
There are area's of the pump that merit further investigation, however I don't think that the plunger size/length/diameter is the direction we should go/look.
Honestly, I'm tinkering with a couple other things as we speak.
One thing I will not do, is recommend something until I am personally confident that it won't blow up my truck, let alone someone else's.
Lets keep looking at the pump, etc, and talking the theory/thoughts out loud in this thread and it will produce some results we can all use.
Last but not least, I'm really glad to see a bit of fun going on around here too... . it's a necessity to remain sane and enjoy the lighter side...
Please keep a rein on the language as per guidelines and have at it... .
Fair warning, I'm gonna open a thread for "What's the name of your truck"..... keep it clean, no hitting below the belt, biting ears is not allowed...
Bob.
Formula, I'm glad you mentioned the "reliability factor". That, to be truthfull, has long been one of my requirements for any mods I make. I too, use this truck for daily driving, around town, grocery runs, and occasional bouts of ludicrous behavior punishable by fines... .
I am pretty certain however, that it is do-able to reach a bit higher in HP, say 300 firm RWHP, and have a decent reliability factor.
Again, look at marks' numbers. I admit he pushed it hard, and ran the pump hard too, but that engine was in great shape when it came out, and is still running fine last I heard...
There are area's of the pump that merit further investigation, however I don't think that the plunger size/length/diameter is the direction we should go/look.
Honestly, I'm tinkering with a couple other things as we speak.
One thing I will not do, is recommend something until I am personally confident that it won't blow up my truck, let alone someone else's.
Lets keep looking at the pump, etc, and talking the theory/thoughts out loud in this thread and it will produce some results we can all use.
Last but not least, I'm really glad to see a bit of fun going on around here too... . it's a necessity to remain sane and enjoy the lighter side...
Please keep a rein on the language as per guidelines and have at it... .
Fair warning, I'm gonna open a thread for "What's the name of your truck"..... keep it clean, no hitting below the belt, biting ears is not allowed...
Bob.
The VE pump has lots of stroke and lots of plunger diameter. In the "start" mode, it pushes MASSIVE amounts of fuel.
The problem is: It can't generate really high pressure. It falls WAY short of what a P7100 can do, so, it can't shove the fuel through small injectors fast enough to get huge quantities in.
The lines are plenty large, and the pump can flow enough fuel through the passages internally.
What the VE pump does on the test stand becomes irrelevant when you start c hanging injectors. What it does on the test stand is only what it can do through the nozzles the test stand is equipped with.
I have a formula for 325 rwhp.
However, it is UNTRIED AND UNPROVEN.
Update VE pump with 3400 rpm governor spring, double the advance the pump can do. Turn up the fuel heavily, but not the point the governor is at all unstable or unreliable.
Set injection pump timing at 1. 4 to 1. 7 mm at TDC.
Engine mods:
Piers cam
PW injectors honed for 10% increase in flow, minimum.
Head ported, intake and exhaust.
Intake modified to distribute air well to all cylinders.
Thicker head gasket to lower CR slightly.
twin, wastegated, parallel turbos. Your WHOLE GOAL is to dramatically increase airflow AND DECREASE pumping losses caused by drive pressure and flow resistance in the engine.
other mods:
better fuel flow to injection pump
Better flowing intercooler
at least 4 inch exhaust, or dual 3 inch.
This engine will run on low boost, ~20 psi
IT should be able to spool 2 hy9's.
With it's inherent large airflow, it should burn lots of fuel at NO boost, thereby spooling the turbos very well, even though large.
Essential to this, is absolute minimum drive pressure - ergo the 2 turbos that can FLOW more air, and 2 wastegates to keep exhaust resistance down.
Now, back to pump theory.
There is not the slightest danger of blowing lines iwth a VE pump. It will seize long before it can generate anywhere near enough pressure. Also, with a 12 mm plunger, it has the capacity to move massive amounts of fuel, but at lower pressure.
Speed - that is, engine rpm - is the single largest reason for fuel flow to drop from the VE. As rpm's go up, the pump tries to force the fuel through the injectors faster and faster, creating higher and higher peaks. INjector hole size, number, needle lift, are the flow limiting factors.
The single most fragile part in the VE pump is the cam plate. consistently running at high pressures will cause it to flake and self-destruct if it has ANY flaws, or if it rusts.
The problem is: It can't generate really high pressure. It falls WAY short of what a P7100 can do, so, it can't shove the fuel through small injectors fast enough to get huge quantities in.
The lines are plenty large, and the pump can flow enough fuel through the passages internally.
What the VE pump does on the test stand becomes irrelevant when you start c hanging injectors. What it does on the test stand is only what it can do through the nozzles the test stand is equipped with.
I have a formula for 325 rwhp.
However, it is UNTRIED AND UNPROVEN.
Update VE pump with 3400 rpm governor spring, double the advance the pump can do. Turn up the fuel heavily, but not the point the governor is at all unstable or unreliable.
Set injection pump timing at 1. 4 to 1. 7 mm at TDC.
Engine mods:
Piers cam
PW injectors honed for 10% increase in flow, minimum.
Head ported, intake and exhaust.
Intake modified to distribute air well to all cylinders.
Thicker head gasket to lower CR slightly.
twin, wastegated, parallel turbos. Your WHOLE GOAL is to dramatically increase airflow AND DECREASE pumping losses caused by drive pressure and flow resistance in the engine.
other mods:
better fuel flow to injection pump
Better flowing intercooler
at least 4 inch exhaust, or dual 3 inch.
This engine will run on low boost, ~20 psi
IT should be able to spool 2 hy9's.
With it's inherent large airflow, it should burn lots of fuel at NO boost, thereby spooling the turbos very well, even though large.
Essential to this, is absolute minimum drive pressure - ergo the 2 turbos that can FLOW more air, and 2 wastegates to keep exhaust resistance down.
Now, back to pump theory.
There is not the slightest danger of blowing lines iwth a VE pump. It will seize long before it can generate anywhere near enough pressure. Also, with a 12 mm plunger, it has the capacity to move massive amounts of fuel, but at lower pressure.
Speed - that is, engine rpm - is the single largest reason for fuel flow to drop from the VE. As rpm's go up, the pump tries to force the fuel through the injectors faster and faster, creating higher and higher peaks. INjector hole size, number, needle lift, are the flow limiting factors.
The single most fragile part in the VE pump is the cam plate. consistently running at high pressures will cause it to flake and self-destruct if it has ANY flaws, or if it rusts.
PW, good to see you, out and about..... been there doing that...
bob.
bob.
PowerWagon is right. The VE can flow enough fuel the way it is to reasonably reach 325 rwhp if you can get the air. The only problem is that when you try to push that much fuel through a pump then you are taking chances at reliablility. All it would take is one little air bubble and you can say goodbye to your cam plate and rollers. :{
RE: Power Wagon's guidelines... . So you're saying essentially pump adjustments alone don't mean increased power because any pump output tinkering is restricted by upstream and downstream variables. Upstream variables being line ID for fuel volume to the pump from the tank and downstream variables being injector resistance to the VE pump which can deliver volume but not pressure.
If that can all be balanced out and improved, there's air supply to the cylinder to consider to properly utilize the fuel you've delivered. On that topic, I was told a long time ago that the intake should be left slightly rough to aid turbulence and provide good fuel/air mixture to the engine but that is on a gasser where the air and fuel are mixed outside the cylinder. I guess on a diesel you would not be concerned with this because the fuel and air mix in the cylinder and the intake inner surface should be as smooth as possible to deliver max air volume without turbulence? Exhaust manifold should always be smooth bore for rapid evacuation and low backpressure. True? I know what air in/air out improvements do to something as simple as an air cooled VW 1600 engine which is why I ripped the muffler off of the truck immediately. It had a positive affect, as did adding the aFe filter. Are a lot of folks here working with the manifolds and heads? I see Old Smoky has something in his signature about this.
RE: Dzlpwr... the air bubble is terminal to the cam and rollers because?? Plunger goes solid with an air bubble trapped in the circuit?
RE: the language guidelines, I must have missed those (I'll look for them) so if I crossed a line somewhere, sorry about that.
I need to get my truck back to have something to look at when asking this stuff. Hopefully soon; till then, thanks for the education guys. Sorry for the length.
If that can all be balanced out and improved, there's air supply to the cylinder to consider to properly utilize the fuel you've delivered. On that topic, I was told a long time ago that the intake should be left slightly rough to aid turbulence and provide good fuel/air mixture to the engine but that is on a gasser where the air and fuel are mixed outside the cylinder. I guess on a diesel you would not be concerned with this because the fuel and air mix in the cylinder and the intake inner surface should be as smooth as possible to deliver max air volume without turbulence? Exhaust manifold should always be smooth bore for rapid evacuation and low backpressure. True? I know what air in/air out improvements do to something as simple as an air cooled VW 1600 engine which is why I ripped the muffler off of the truck immediately. It had a positive affect, as did adding the aFe filter. Are a lot of folks here working with the manifolds and heads? I see Old Smoky has something in his signature about this.
RE: Dzlpwr... the air bubble is terminal to the cam and rollers because?? Plunger goes solid with an air bubble trapped in the circuit?
RE: the language guidelines, I must have missed those (I'll look for them) so if I crossed a line somewhere, sorry about that.
I need to get my truck back to have something to look at when asking this stuff. Hopefully soon; till then, thanks for the education guys. Sorry for the length.
I was talking to a knowledgeable first gen guy that has been fooling with these trucks for several years and here is what I have been told.
At least one 280cc pump has lasted over 50,000 miles, so they hold up pretty good as long as the injectors are big enough to keep the pressures down.
The biggest gains to be had with the VE are by changing the governer spring to increase the fuel cutoff point, you can't get much more flow out of it by doing anything other than adjustments, dv's don't add much and you have to do some work to the head and rotor to get much more out of it too.
With Lucas injectors and a well adjusted pump expect to get about 225cc of fuel which can make over 300rwhp with some minor engine mods, like what Nascar Mark had. If Mark had a stick he would have already been around 325 to the wheels. Without nitrous about 400rwhp is the most you can hope to get out o f this setup without really pushing things hard and making lots of custom parts.
You can have a custom 13mm plunger and barrel made to get over 300cc of fuel but it costs WAY more money than it is worth as in like $4000 for just the head.
If you want more fuel than about 250cc put on a p-pump.
You guys are looking at 10 and 15hp gains when there is over 100hp left to be had with minor modifications.
At least one 280cc pump has lasted over 50,000 miles, so they hold up pretty good as long as the injectors are big enough to keep the pressures down.
The biggest gains to be had with the VE are by changing the governer spring to increase the fuel cutoff point, you can't get much more flow out of it by doing anything other than adjustments, dv's don't add much and you have to do some work to the head and rotor to get much more out of it too.
With Lucas injectors and a well adjusted pump expect to get about 225cc of fuel which can make over 300rwhp with some minor engine mods, like what Nascar Mark had. If Mark had a stick he would have already been around 325 to the wheels. Without nitrous about 400rwhp is the most you can hope to get out o f this setup without really pushing things hard and making lots of custom parts.
You can have a custom 13mm plunger and barrel made to get over 300cc of fuel but it costs WAY more money than it is worth as in like $4000 for just the head.
If you want more fuel than about 250cc put on a p-pump.
You guys are looking at 10 and 15hp gains when there is over 100hp left to be had with minor modifications.
My pump was 100% stock. There was no added parts and only one piece removed (the nylon washer under the diaphram). Todate I have done the same mods with 2 other pumps. (The one that went with my sold engine and the one on my engine now). I did do a custom grind on my concentric plate but have not dyno'd with it since my last dyno run. I can tell you it flows more fuel with the pin ground.
mark
PDR - Black Sheep Racing
mark
PDR - Black Sheep Racing
Sled',
First, thanks for jumping in and contributing here...
We are wondering if there was more potential available, as well as some better pressures to help with atomization. Since the limited options for injectors result in a bit coarser fuel cloud from one's like the Lucas' pressure would seem to be a natural solution, at least in part... .
Have you any insight into what the injector pressure is at idle and up thru the RPM band.
I see to recall that the high end is about 8,000 PSI,, at least that is what I seem to remember...
Bob.
First, thanks for jumping in and contributing here...
We are wondering if there was more potential available, as well as some better pressures to help with atomization. Since the limited options for injectors result in a bit coarser fuel cloud from one's like the Lucas' pressure would seem to be a natural solution, at least in part... .
Have you any insight into what the injector pressure is at idle and up thru the RPM band.
I see to recall that the high end is about 8,000 PSI,, at least that is what I seem to remember...
Bob.
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
