Question for the Canadians

[elamb]

My wife has a debate class at college and they are talking about Quebec. She is having a hard time finding any information. Her question is, Why does Quebec need to stay part of Canada? Also anything thing about the healthcare system. Any info or web sites she can go to would be appreciated.



Thanks,

Eric

 

[rfcom]

I'm no political scientist, but it seems that there is a faction in Quebec that wants to seperate while the rest of Canada wants them to stay in the Dominion. I guess the reasons would be similar for wanting Texas or California, or any other state to stay in the Union.

As for health care, it is administered provincially while being partially funded by the federal government. Here's the web site for AHC - http://www.health.gov.ab.ca/. I'm sure there are similar ones for other provinces. HTH



Jim

 

[TboneMan]

Come on now, I'd love to have New York City secede from New York State!j

'

 

[smartineau]

Let Quebec succeed. The rest of Canada does not need to have those arrogant French francophone's. Those Quebecers have got so many special things passed to help them I say **** them!



Canadian dairy products are expensive to sooth those SOB's.



I say CANADA FOR CANADIANS! Let the Quebecers go to France if they love it so much.



The preceding was just my opinion and as you can tell from my name I am of French Canadian heritage.



Steve Martineau,



* * *



Please do not try to skirt the profanity filters. Thank you.



Robin

TDR Admin

05/25/03

 

[klenger]

As I understand it (and I am far from knowledgeable on this) it is legal for a providance in Canada to succeed. I think all it taks is a vote in favor over a certain percentage (which I assume is not easy to get).



The US Constitution does not allow for such a thing.



Having worked for a major corporation from Quebec, I can agree that they are a royal PITA to work with. I worked with some computer consulatants from Quecec, who had the French version of Windows NT installed on their laptops. When something didn't work correctly, they wanted me to fix it. My feeling is, if they speek English and French (which they do), and choose to use French softare, it's their problem.

 

[BFC]

I say CANADA FOR CANADIANS! Let the Quebecers go to France if they love it so much.

that's like saying to Americans if you don't like the US go the England. There is no common thread other than language between the two.

I guess the reasons would be similar for wanting Texas or California, or any other state to stay in the Union.

yep. Quebec as 27% of the Canadian population (income tax, GST, social sec. etc mucho revenu dollars for the the Federal Gov) They have 2/3 of the Canadian fresh water supplies, most of the iron, gold, copper and silver to name a few. Hydro Quebec pretty much powers New England and South eastern Ontario(Electricity is big business and Hydro Q is a world leader in Hydro Electricity technologies). Also a huge chunk of the dairy industries.

As I understand it (and I am far from knowledgeable on this) it is legal for a providance in Canada to succeed. I think all it taks is a vote in favor over a certain percentage (which I assume is not easy to get)

Yes and no. They do need the vote in the province wanting to secede (50%+1) but Canada beeing a Commonwealth the rest of the country would have to agree to let them go. That said how do keep a province from leaving?



Remember that it is a MINORITY of these "SOB's" that want to split but they are very vocal. It's as been voted on twice in the last 24 years (1980 & 1996) both times it was defeated. it came damn close in 96, 50. 6% NO to 49. 4% YES They have been loosing ground ever since, now it's stands at about 70/30 like the result of the vote in 1980.



Quebec does have a "Distinc society" clause in the Canadian constitution and does have rights that no other provinces have, but who gave it to them? You guess it, Canada! Must have been something in it for them, don't you think?



Quebec city was founded in 1534 by the French and changes rulers several times and the English finally ended up with the whole cabbodle but the French colonized it first. The English won the war. Big surprise there, if you can't beat the French in a war... ... ... ... ... at least they fought a little bit for the "New France" as they called it back then.



Damn that is a long post, LOL. Anymore Quebec Questions?



Glenn

 

[QRTRHRS]

Just a few observations.

I hauled cedar fencing out of eastern Ontario for nearly two years. The people I dealt with were good people but the closer I got to the Quebec border, the more harshly they would speak of the Quebecers. So, it is not just us that have a problem.



Go to Quebec and you could kiss their tailbone and still get no response in English even though you are spending money.



East of Quebec, you have the have the Atlantic Provinces. New Brunswich is bilingual but the people freely use whichever language is needed. Totally different attitude. Should Quebec secede, it would isolate the Maritimes. Maybe we could take them in?



Early on, I worked for some of the honeymoon resorts in the Pocono's. The Quebecers had the same rotten attitude when they stayed there too. Wildwood, NJ was another popular destination. Those locals will tell you the same thing.

 

[pdolan]

Eric:



Wow, this is not a question to which I could respond adequately in the few minutes I have before heading off to NYC for a few weeks, even if I could write and post as I go.



Glen's reply is technically correct. The existance of Quebec as a distinct entity within Confederation has more to do with how and why this country exists. Canada was originally the conquest of two companies, the Hudson's Bay Company (England) and the Northwest Company (France). There really wasn't any legal basis for their existance here, since they were chartered in a foreign place, so each laid claim to the territories in which they exploited resources. The territories outside of same were questionable in title. Ultimately, the English and French got into a slugging match, which the Limey's won.



Since the sole purpose of the colony was to skim its incredible wealth for the "crown", the Empire didn't want a bunch of unhappy colonists or natives, so the Limeys gave anyone pretty much anything they wanted - as long as it cost the colony, not England herself. When the US kicked the slimey limeys out of what was to become the people's country, Canada not only welcomed them in, they were given generous land grants (United Empire Loyalists, most settled at the East end of Lake Ontario).



And so it continues today - the Federal government will give Quebec anything that a whining minority or an incredibly corrupt business community pays kickbacks to get - because at 27% of the vote, they need to carry Quebec to win Canada - not a situation that any sane Westerner can tolerate. The dairy industry is a good example - even though Quebec represents about 1/4 of the population, and probably has about the same proportion of appropriate ag land, they have by far the majority of the dairy industry because the crown only grants the right to HAVE a dairy (cream quota) to those places that the central planning agency wishes to bestow the privilege of producing under their supply management legislation. Karl Marx would be proud.



You will also notice that a dissproportionate number of policiticians in Federal level are Quebecois. To continue to milk the resources of the country without bothering to develop any value added industry, you need experts in screwing over the public, and Quebec has a legacy of being expert in that calling.



Further, EVERY civil servant is required to be billingual if they expect to rise above the very bottom level of the bureacracy (which comprises one of the largest industries in the country). Again, thanks to Quebec giving us endless Liberal (read right proper socialist a-holes) for leaders.



The sick care business is another failed social experiment. We do indeed have publicly funded medical care, and, to some extent (i. e. if you are healthy) it works just fine. If you are sick, I mean REALLY sick, you are liable to find out what is wrong with sick care. To our credit, we do have SOME health care (public medicine - i. e. preventative) and it reflects in the numbers, but generally, making every physician a public lackey and every nurse a public service union employee pretty much guarantees an overall screw-up of monumental proportions (which we have). The only reason we can afford what we have is that our civil litigation costs only a fraction as much as that in the US, making malpractice and liability insurance relatively insignificant as a cost.



I can only suggest your wife look very carefully into institutions such as the Canadian Taxpayer's Federation, the Fraser Institute or the Prairie Policy Centre to begin to get a true picture of what is going on up here.



To answer her question, Quebec needs to stay part of Canada so that the dominant herd of useless t*ts that live by sucking the lifeblood out of the resources can continue the sharade that is supposed to pass for government in this socialist paradise.



Pat

 

[Morphious]

personnally, I think it's just the french language... . I've spent quite a bit of time in Montreal when I was getting a cd plant up and producing, and also out in Drummondville (further east and north). They tended to skoff if you didn't speak french and look down on you. I don't speak french, but I can read it half way decently and can usually reason what they are saying or round abouts... . (especially the derogatory things... . seemed to be primarily what I learned in French class). Over the years, I've worked with many people from a vast amount of contries, from North/Central/South America, All of the European nations except the soviet block, and many of the Asian countries as well including China. Each has thier own quirks and attitudes toward foreigners, but most seem to try and show the best of thier country and themselves, the worst has been the French and Koreans, both are nasty attitude people and shouldn't be allowed out in public.



Morph.

 

[BFC]

Originally posted by pdolan

Eric:

can continue the sharade that is supposed to pass for government in this socialist paradise.

Ain't that the truth! As afr as attitude goes, I have to kind of agree with you all, kinda. The only two places that not speaking french won't probably matter is Montreal and Quebec city. Montreal is big business center and usally pretty easy to get around in English alone, you probably run in a buthole or two like aywhere else. Quebec city is a major tourists attracrtion ( only walled city in North America) and people a usally helpfull and friendly as their love for the American dollars is stronger than pretty much anything. That said, go out of these two major cities and your on your own if you don't speak French! Sad to say but must Quebecois don't have a working knowledge of english, thay don't need it to go about thair daily lives, unless their business requires it.



Pat,



As far a the politician goes, yes Quebec as 27% of the vote but that means the the rest as 73%. The fact that most prime ministers in the last 30 years have been french canadians is the results of Canadians voting for them, not just the Quebec folks. With 4 federal political parties in the west, the votes gets divided in a minority of seats for 4 parties, ence the sad dominance of the Liberals. If Ontario did vote so overwhelmingly Liberal, the would not be in power.



The blame resides in the a flawed system, not in the folks you live there. Whatever language you speak shouldn't define who you are. You can find as many English speaking Canadians with bad attitudes towards the French canadians I guarantee you that. I could city you endless example (as I speak both french and english fluently) of people that would look down on me, when they heard me speaking french to a colleage and mumble something like damn french canadian and then be surprised when I spoke to them in english with no accent whatsoever. (English is my first language). All of a sudden their attitudes did a 180, I was OK after all!



It's funny what languages does to people. I've lived in Texas for the last 5 years and I see a lot of similarities between the Spanish and English speaking folks. Different circumstances for sure but nevertheless, the reaction, opinions and attitudes towards one an another(language related) are very similar. Wonder why that is? I need to learn Spanish now!



Differences are cool, they make the world more interesting. Remember that minds are like parachutes, they don't do you any good if they are not open!!



Glenn

 

[nickleinonen]

Remember that minds are like parachutes, they don't do you any good if they are not open!!

that's a good one... :-laf



i don't understand the quebecors that want to separate. idoits i think.

 

[smartineau]

Originally posted by BFC

that's like saying to Americans if you don't like the US go the England. There is no common thread other than language between the two.





BFC,



If there is no common thread other than language someone forgot to tell most of my family. My grandfather thought I was the greatest thing when I was little he wanted to take me to France, (I don't think he had ever been there). He liked me more than the other grandchildren because I could speak French back then. He and other relatives always talked about how wonderful France was and how screwed up the US and Canada were.



As I got older and stopped learning and speaking French he had nothing to do with me. But by then I had a younger cousin who was all into the France thing, my grandfather was setting aside money for her to go to France when he died.



I don't think that having Americans who don't like the US going back to England is the same as Quebecers going back to France. I may be missing something here though. We speak English because of a vote were the out come was decided by a single vote one way or the other. If one person in this vote way back when had voted German we would most likley still be speaking German now. Quebecers speak French because they want to be different than the rest of Canada, somehow special, I guess.





If quebec succeeds sure it may devastate the Canadian economy, at least for a while but soon they would be back on track. That is as long as we yanks go up there and spend money in the rest of Canada. And Boycott those arrogant PITA wanna be Frenchies.



Steve

 

[BFC]

Steve,



So your whole picture of 7 million people is based on your grand father and one cousin? I could introduce you to one whole side of my family( that is french canadian, the other is British) that would come join me in the US, rather than even go visit France, in a heart beat! Not mention countless friends. They've never been to France, nor do they plan on going. Like I said, french Canadian and French people, BIG difference! Most french Canadians can't stand the French, like most of the world!



Quebecqois don't speak french "'cause they want to be different", they do so because it's their native tongue and has been since 1534! Think about it, they are surrounded(and always have been) by 300 million english speaking folks, yet the language and the culture still survives and trives. You have to respect that.



As for the the yanks bailling out Canada... . the US is already heavily taxing or boycotting Canadian beef, steel and lumber and dairy products. Just to name a few. But the eastern yanks do like all the electricity that is produce in Quebec and several states already have 100 year contracts with the "wannabe french" for that commodity, worth BILLIONS.



Every American spends $19(US) a year on Canadian goods on the other hand, Canadian spend an average of $240(US) on American goods. Better get spending if you want to save Canada BTW secession is not going to happen in our lifetime, they said no twice already, remember?



Let's wait 470 years and see where English is at in Texas and Califonia and most of the southwestern states... ... ... .....



Glenn

 

[smartineau]

BFC,



Apparently I am hanging around the wrong people most of my family (uncles & aunts and then more distant relatives all of which are over the age of 50) are die hard France supporters. Other than the one cousin (who was stupid enough to go live in France for a year or two), the younger family members couldn't care about France and very little about Canada even. We were all born here on the US side of the border, and we are Americans



Since I am very anti France and anti Quebec perhaps I am looking at it wrong, and talking to the wrong people, but about 50-60 percent of the Quebecers (of French decent) that I have talked to, seem to all want there own New France, right here in North America. They all want Quebec to have the political clout in Canadian politics.



Yes, financially Quebec succeeding would be a disaster.



I don't think we will need to wait 470 years to see were English is in Texas and California. I can see a big push for total bilingualism, at least at government levels much sooner than that.



steve



PS I just bought my BD (made in BC) short shifter so I am now close to my portion of the $240. 00

 

[BFC]

PS I just bought my BD (made in BC) short shifter so I am now close to my portion of the $240. 00

Now all you have to do is convince 275 000 000 other yanks and you can save Canada!



It has been my experience living in the US that most American don't make the distinction between french canadian and french. Two very different cultures with their own set of values.



I think you best said it when you said that "they seem to all want there own New France, right here in North America. " Those who do want to secede do not want "a new France" they want their OWN country, not a new and revisded version of anything.



As for Quebec wanting political power at the Federal level, show me one Province that is not trying to do that in the screwded up system they have up there. Unfortunatly for the other 8, Ontario and Quebec have almost 60% of the population, so it's a two men game and everybody else gets caught in and pays for the power stuggle.



The funny thing is, Alberta gave up waiting on the Feds to fix things and the rest of Canada making a big deal about the Quebec thing(right after the last NO in 96). They now have no deficit, best health care system, lowest un-employment and lowest taxes in Canada. The other 9 should, Quebec included, should take notes.



Glenn

 

[Mike Ellis]

Glenn,



No need to wait 470 years to see what happens to English in Texas. In another 40 years it will be in a firm 2nd place to Spanish. Unchecked illegal immigration and a misguided "help 'em out" policy of making signs, forms, etc in Spanish ensures that the no-English forces will continue to grow. There are apparently few legal American citizens of Mexican descent who are unable to speak English, so clearly the Spanish-language efforts are targeted at the huge illegal population.



In Dallas-Fort Worth, several of our broadcast TV stations have gone Spanish-only. Ditto the radio stations. The state's demographics are shifting VERY rapidly, but most people don't seem to care very much. They won't wake up and notice what is going on until the balance of power in the state legislature changes.



If I can properly attach it, following is a map of Texas showing the % of people in each county who speak a language other than English at home. Pretty easy to see the migration to the Northeast.

 

[Mike Ellis]

Since my shrunken GIF image above isn't highly readable, here is the map legend:



Yellow = < 14% of Population is Non-English Speaking at Home

Green = 14 - 31%

Red = 31 - 45%

Blue = 45 - 92%



State Average is 31. 24% (data is from 2000)



This map was taken from a Texas A&M demographics website that has lots of interesting county-by-county breakdowns. Everything from percentage of people who own homes to percentage of single-income families. The migration data is particularly interesting - things in Texas are changing, and they are changing QUICK.

 

[BFC]

Mike,



Amazing ain't it! After living for 5 years down here I know exactly what you mean. Immigration policy reform is a must, believe me I know, I went trought it! Too bad I wasn't from Cuba with no employment offers, education or english language skill, I would have given the red carpet treatment!



As far as the "help 'em out policy" I agree with you but believe me when I say it's a two edge sword. Terms like language police, dictators, fashist or even communist are common. They have such laws in Quebec(and Canada) one of the reason the french language is still alive in Quebec and the Chinese haven't taken over British Columbia completely! Most of the provincial goverment have been called all the cited name above(CBS's 60 minutes made a big deal about it), but one of the official lanuages of Canada is still predominant everywhere in Canada, be it french or english depending on geography.



Will all the interest group and the state of the legal system down here, I really don't see those kind of law in the future. Time to learn a third language I guess!

 

[elamb]

I appreciate the replies everybody. She said that it was helpful. As for me I don't have a clue what you guys are going on about, but she does and as always thats all that matters. :-laf :-laf



Thanks again,

Eric