Questions & Concerns Regarding ATS Triple-Lok

[dramer]

We at ATS have had some calls regarding concerns on the Triple-Loc torque converter. This post should help clear up any questions or concerns that we need to address. The torque converter is using the same technology that all automatic transmissions use and have used from the inception. All of the internal clutch packs use fiber clutch plates with steel plates. The concept is hydraulic pressure applies pressure to engage the fiber clutch disks.

The questions have been do the clutches drag when not applied. There is many different ways to relax the clutch piston to release the piston pressure from the clutch drum. The piston can have springs that push back the piston when fluid pressure is not applying it.

The other way is to use balance oil to float the piston back. The first 400 cycles of a fluid soaked clutch is called compaction this process compacts the clutch lining. From most people that look at this they would think that the clutch is rubbed or dragged. Once this clutch seasons it becomes flat and smooth depending on the friction compound. The clutch then has constant fluid between each disk this would be like trapping fluid under a piece of glass.

It will not make contact until the oil can be relieved from the surface. This is the same concept that a hydraulic cylinder uses. The oil on the backside has to be exhausted for the piston to move. Pressure can’t be applied with oil trapped on the backside. (This also keeps the clutches from being dragged). It keeps the friction lubricated and cool. So the compound of the clutch & surface finish is the combination that has to be correct. This is getting into the coefficient of friction this will be addressed on the next post.



Don Ramer

ATS Diesel Performance

The Home Of The Triple-Lok

Oo. Oo.

www.Dieseltorqueconverters.com

 

[ATSDiesel]

Questions and concerns regarding ATS’s Triple-Lok Converter



1) Triple clutch operation in fluid coupling can be best explained like this.



As fluid is sent from the switch valve (lock-up valve)

down the input shaft of the transmission there is an

oil cushion built up between the converter cover and

the lock-up piston. On a single clutch lock-up piston

this oil film is often used as the thrust surface, on

some converters there is a thrust system incorporated

into the design. On a design using a thrust system all

of the load placed on the turbine wile under heavy

load in fluid coupling is placed on the turbine thrust

washer or bearing in the center of the torque

converter. In the case of the Dodge, a thrust washer

is used to transfer load to the front cover. As you

can see there is no load or squeezing action taking

place on the clutch or clutches in the event you are using a multiple clutch system, wile in the unlocked mode. Fluid

is free to pass between the clutches before entering

the impeller area. Passing oil from the center of the

turbine spines through the clutches is a normal

occurrence, we allow equal oil passage between all

of the clutch plates so they all have lubrication. Oil circulation between the clutch plates is a science we have worked with for some time.



2) Other techniques we use when building the Triple-Lok converter



When building a converter we build in the proper

amount of clutch clearance to allow for oil

circulation between the clutch plates, clutch

clearance also has an effect on the timing required to

apply the clutches once the lock-up valve strokes. One

thing we discovered about lock-up when we developed

the triple-Loc clutch system was its ability to

lock-up with such positive force under low converter

pressures. This was a little of a surprise to us

because we had spent so much of our time working on

the hydraulic systems to get a good TCC apply when working with a single clutch design. With

the invention of the triple-Lok system we found we were working on

a system that gave us a very firm TCC apply due to its mechanical ability to hold . We

wanted a softer apply to cushion the engagements so

the gear train, splines and shafts would not develop

stress that would shorten transmission life. In the

hunt for a softer apply we went back to a friction

material that has a lower coefficient of friction. The

friction allows more slip as the two surfaces speeds

equal in speed. By the sounds of this it sounds like

the clutches would constantly slip. Friction compound is like smoking mirrors, we are learning how to make mirrors smoke! Once the clutches and steel plates stop moving they are locked together, hence the TRIPLE-LOK design. Our TRIPLE-LOK clutch has a break-away force tested at three times the best single clutch design we have tested, and it will take more constant drag than any other design we have seen. To date not one Triple-Lok clutch has come back damaged. Please write with any questions about our converter.



Clint Cannon

www.dieseltorqueconverters.com

The Home Of The Triple-Lok

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

I have been sitting around here watching everyone talk about their TCC and the other guys TCC. One side says we don't need lock up. You say it is the best thing since sliced bread. I am still driving on a stock transmission. I have transmission mods in mind for the future. I will also install injectors at the same time(DDII's). Will your system cause breakage in a shift in lock up mode? Is it better to have a trans slip Say 11% ? I will haul HEAVY... Often, livestock and hay mostly, But a tractor too. Why is the system you offer the one I should go for? I have really enjoyed watching you guys debate each other. We( the unknowing) do learn from it. Thanks for your time. Greg Boardman

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Greg, it doesn't matter what converter you are running. If you allow the transmission to shift in lockup, you will break it.

 

[dramer]

Quote: CAnderson

If you allow the transmission to shift in lockup, you will break it.



I have a question? You’re saying that the transmission can’t be built to handle shifts with lockup?

The transmission will fail at some point in time for both conditions. Using one without the other has limitations. Proper use of both will help insure more life from the transmission.

From using fluid coupling all of the time generates heat. From what is understood from higher heat is higher wear. This also will shorten the life of any transmission or engine.

Using lockup under the wrong conditions can also damage or hurt the transmission. When the transmission is set up, it has to be built for the conditions that’s needed. Higher engine power can destroy any transmission if things aren’t set up for it.

The forward clutch & high clutch (Direct) has to be beefed up for higher power. Other components would also need it. The engine gets turned up; the transmission also needs it as well.

The (NV4500 5spd) blows up in 5th gear and that was addressed. Fluid coupling and lockup both need to be corrected in order to stop the shock to the turbine shaft. Any heavy sudden shock to any shaft or bearing will shorten the life of that part. This is what has to be corrected for higher power with heaver load conditions added to it. This gets into apply rate and pressure with shift timing and that’s too much to add at this time.

 

[Cooker]

What about the reat of the drivetrain when shifting locked-to-locked?



Even if the transmission is built to hadle the harshness of the shift, it is still going to be transfered through the T-Case (if applicable), the U-Joint/driveshaft, and differential(s). This is correct, right?



I'm not trying to argue with anyone here, but this is something I was wondering.



-Ryan

 

[LSMITH]

Don and Clint, excellent posts. This is precisely the type of information we have been looking for. So far what you have said about preventing the disks from dragging makes perfect sense, it works just like the other multiple disk packs in the transmission.



I would like to ask you how a transmission would operate though, for what I consider a fairly common setup.

Setup: 300-325RWHP, 2500 4x4, daily driver with occaisional towing up to about 12K #.



What would the shift pattern be, like when would it lock and unlock, RPM for shifts and so on. Can an exhuast brake be used without further mods? Will it downshift on its own to keep it in the right gear when slowing?



Last question, what is the warranty on your convertor for the above setup and use?



Thank you in advance for taking the time to answer this.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Well i am glad we have established that shifting your transsmission locked to locked will destroy parts. Not only in your transmission but driveshafts , transfer case and rear ends. That is only the hard part damage. This does not include the soft part damage inside the transmission(ie, bands clutch packs ect. )



This whole issue of shifting locked to locked brings to mind the following question. If you a paying for a tc that has much better fluid coupling than oem, why would you need lockup for accelleration? Please dont suggest that its for faster times in the quarter mile or street racing. We all know that if the fluid coupling was properly set up you would shift through the gears and lockup would be the last shift.



To understand about the oem lockup clutch system both on its apply side and its release side lets first talk about the apply side, since most people have a basic understanding of this we will start with this.



I have one of those relationships with engineers where i like them one day and i hate them the next day. When they approve of my ideas i like em that day,when they reject my ideas as not being plausable vs the laws of physics i hate them that day.



The tripple disc clutch got rejected for 3 basic reasons, 2 of them based of the laws of physics could not be overcome using the oem system of apply and release .



Since you clearly stated you are using the oem system are you suggesting that you are defying the laws of physics?



Let me see if i can explain to you guys what i see as transmission technician.



When the lockup clutch is applied it merely pushes the piston forward using hydraulic pressure against the front cover which gives you a one to one ratio with the engine.



As you increase the amount of hp you have, there is not enough hydraulic pressure pushing the lockup clutch forward to keep the clutch fully engaged. This lack of pressue will cause the tc clutch to slip. If you increase your pressure you will reduce or eliminate the tc clutch slippage. So in basic terms , its hydraulic pressure keeping the clutch from slipping.



Now lets talk about the release side of the system.



On an oem system there is a single disc, as hydraulic pressure moves that away from the front cover there is nothing for the friction material to rub against it just free floats, there simply is nothing for it to drag against.



In a multiple disc application since you now have 2 pressure plates added and two more friction materials added to create the multiple disc system as the hydraulic pressure is moving the piston away from the front cover you are actually applying 2 of the 3 friction materials forcing them to be dragged the moment you start your truck up. Suggesting that the clutches will be cured after time doesnt make a lot of sense because the release pressure is always going to be there. Not only that but this release pressure has now also become apply pressure for 2 out of the 3 friction materials which will cause premature failure of these frictions.



The next logical question since most of us already know that apply pressure is what is keeping the lockup clutch from slipping how much release oil is there inside the tc during non lock up?

Since per your words we are dealing with oem valve bodies and trucks this is not a trade secret issue since anyone can figure out their tc clutch release pressure with a little help.



For most of the tdr members following these two threads you now need to know what both the apply and release pressures are so you can get a mental picture of what the actual pressures are and how much force you are dealing with. This should be an easy question for you guys at ATS since it has to be done as a baseline test before getting into the multiple disc application.



Since we are talking about defying the laws of physics here, i am very interested in what you guys have to say.



I sincerely hope we can keep this thread informative and easily understandable. I will try and up load some pictures so the members can follow what we are talking about .

 

[TxDieselKid]

It's beging to look a lot like oil, everywhere I read....

Round 2, gotta grab another beer... .



Andrew

 

[Cooker]

I'm truely hope this thread doesn't get carried away. I think the readers could learn a lot from a thread like this.

 

[Bob Wagner]

Lets keep the sarcasm out of here



Let's see if it can be done

 

[D. Showan]

What I gathered from the posts from CCannon and Dramer is that on the release side there are multiple fiber and steel plates but that they are all exposed on all sides to the same fluid and pressure.



So with equal pressure (it wouldn't matter what the pressure is) the steels and fibers won't apply in any direction and are kept separated by the fluid film and would not wear excessively.



Does this make any sense?

 

[Power Wagon]

In this case, a picture is worth a million words.



I had always thought that pressure was used to lock the converter, and the pressure was released to unlock.



If Bill's reading of the tea leaves (the sacred scrolls from Ma Mopar) is correct, the pressure reverses instead, for release. Now, he's saying that when the reverse oil flow takes place, it shoves the clutches against each other. (Ok, silly humor mode off)



ccannon's explanation seems to say that in release mode, there is no "restriction" in that the release oil flow just escapes past the surfaces of the clutches.



Pictures... would clear it all up.

 

[pwr2tow]

Question,

Why does Alison use lockup for acceleration in the dura max.



If memory serves me I think Dodge started doing this with there 3-4 shifts, not sure about Dodge though, that is just what I have been told.



Ron

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Power wagon,





You are absolutely correct, both statements can be proven or dis-proveed with a simple pressure gauge.



This is easy but they might be busy and not had time to post yet.

I will reserve comment for a bit and give them an opportunity to post their test results . Since we are talking about the oem system and an oem valve body there are no trade secrets here.



Ronsram.



you are correct, 2000 and later Dodge rams will allow a third gear locked shift into 4th gear locked shift. I am well prepared for this type of a shift pattern. We have already implemented our custom billet input shafts and front hubs. As the trailer weights kept getting heavier and the hp numbers kept going up, i had to keep moving forward to accocomadte those needs.



You got to respect the torque these Dodges are making ,from a transmission technicians point of view that is.

 

[Rude Ram]

All I'm hearing is lock-up. What about 1-2 and 2-3? Dtt claims his T/C wil drop RPM 300-400 . How about ATS 1-2 and 2-3 shifts?

 

[pwr2tow]

RudeRam,

My BD converter drops 300-400RPM's at shifts and 100-150RPM's at lockup. All depends on how hard you are pushing the loud peddle.

Hope this helps



Ron

 

[dramer]

Triple-Lok

We have enclosed a basic photo that will give some idea of what’s inside of the torque converter please understand that we will not give out the clutch plate detail at this time. We will follow up with a fluid drawing of flow on how this converter works on the next post. The next drawing will help explain why the clutches don’t drag out of lock-up.



Don Ramer

 

[GLASMITHS]

Gaw that's purty

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Hey guys,



Please dont spend a lot of time on complex flow charts, let stick to the topic at hand. All that is required at this point in the thread is the pressure readings as that is the information relevant to what we were discussing.



We dont expect you guys to go to great lengths, the information we need you should have had when you did your baseline testing before you began your project.

Just fill in the blanks,



Apply pressure is ________________



Release pressure is ______________



Then we can carry on from there.



I am sure you guys want to keep this digestable for everyone to follow along and not want to confuse everything with a bunch of flow charts .



To be quite blunt this is an easy one, heck if the release pressure is 0 psi, there would be no clutch drag as the oil would move freely between the clutch plates.